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I've been hearing about water issues my entire life living in California but I don't worry about it because one of these days people will come to their senses a

I've been hearing about water issues my entire life living in California but I don't worry about it because one of these days people will come to their senses and realize clean water is a precious resource that is priced too cheaply. Once we pay for it what it's worth, it will no longer be economical to grow water intensive crops [1] and it will become economical desalinate Pacific Ocean water like San Diego [2] powered by the falling price of renewable energy [3] (one day with plentiful fusion energy maybe) or pumping water from Oregon to California through an undersea pipeline [4] and more far out plans like pumping water from Alaska using 6 nuclear powered pumping stations and atomic bombs to dig trenches will be unnecessary [6] [7] [1] https://www.pressdemocrat.com/article/specialsections/these-are-the-california-crops-that-use-the-most-water/ https://www.pressdemocrat.com/article/specialsections/these-... [2] https://www.sdcwa.org/your-water/local-water-supplies/seawater-desalination/ https://www.sdcwa.org/your-water/local-water-supplies/seawat... [3] https://www.statista.com/chart/26085/price-per-megawatt-hour-of-electricity-by-source/ https://www.statista.com/chart/26085/price-per-megawatt-hour... [5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposed_interstate_water_pipelines_to_California https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposed_interstate_water_pipe... [6] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_Water_and_Power_Alliance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_Water_and_Power... [7] https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/nijhuis/pipe-dreams-the-forgotten-project-that-could-have-saved-amer https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/nijhuis/pipe-dreams-the... edit: For example, people are fine with paying $2 for a bottle of clean water but farmers get mad if you suggest paying more than $70 an acre foot for similar quality water. An acre foot is 325,851 gallons of good clean water suitable for growing the high quality crops California is known for

kevin_b_er 5y ago
The farmers can use pretty much as much as they want from the aquifers and they pay that $70 for 325 thousand gallons of water. That's how individual water conservation pales in comparison to a farmer paying for $20 more in water. Or a new chip fab plant that uses millions of gallons of water per day.
- throwawaysea 5y ago
  For what it’s worth, chip fabs mostly recycle water. Intel is also funding water restoration projects to achieve net positive water use. See https://www.cnbc.com/2021/06/04/why-intel-tsmc-are-building-water-dependent-chip-plants-in-arizona.html https://www.cnbc.com/2021/06/04/why-intel-tsmc-are-building-... > Glenn O’Donnell, vice president and research director at analyst firm Forrester, told CNBC that chip fabrication plants “recycle water religiously,” adding that it’s a bit like a swimming pool in an enclosed building. > “You need a lot to fill it, but you don’t have to add much to keep it going,” he said. “Also, being in an enclosed space, a lot of the water that evaporates can be captured with a dehumidifier and returned to the pool. The fabs will do similar things with their own water usage.” > Intel notes on its website that it is striving to achieve “net positive water use” in Arizona and that it has funded 15 water restoration projects that aim to benefit the state. “Once fully implemented, these projects will restore an estimated 937 million gallons each year,” the company says.
  - jcranmer 5y ago
    Note that most municipal water is recycled in similar fashion (something like 90% of tap water ends up in the sewers directly, and that's low-balling it)--which means you can get great mileage out of municipal systems just by sticking your water treatment intake downstream of your wastewater treatment effluent, although people are somewhat squeamish to discover that this happens. Agricultural use is pretty much the most effective way to export water out of the watershed--the water that is used in the crops is more likely to be lost due to envirotranspiration or simply literally part of the weight of the crop that is exported (especially for leafy crops like lettuce).
e40 5y ago
You are forgetting about aquifer depletion.
isoskeles 5y ago
Wouldn’t this also drive up prices of those crops? Not that it’s a bad thing, I’d rather we pay a fair price than something cheaper because the water is effectively subsidized. I’m curious what effect would occur on the prices of CA crops.
Someone 5y ago
The fear is that there’s an analogue to Keynes’ “Markets can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent” along the lines of “Markets can stay irrational until irreparable damage is done”. Some will say that hasn’t ever happened yet, so it won’t happen this time, either, but typically, those will also believe “Past performance is no guarantee of future results”, so that’s no guarantee it will never happen. In the end, this is a matter of belief. Also, even if we get to the “desalination plants and solar/nuclear fusion saved California”, we may end up with a different California, where “big water” has the power. Some will think that’s not an outcome we should aim for.
- mwattsun 5y ago
  > “Markets can stay irrational until irreparable damage is done” If we don't address this in regards to climate change then we have bigger problems, but thank goodness California is more forward thinking than most other states.
beej71 5y ago
I did the math a while ago and figured California would need a desal plant on every couple miles of coastline to meet its total water needs, including ag, assuming no other water sources. Something else has to give even with the current rain and snow levels. And I fear as a central Oregonian that we're going to have our own water problems. Planning to ship our water to California is a political third rail here, just like in the Owens River Valley.
- JumpCrisscross 5y ago
  > California would need a desal plant on every couple miles of coastline to meet its total water needs "Water needs" are price dependent. People will come up with unlimited ways to waste water at the prices California charges for it.
  - bitcoinlogin 5y ago
    [flagged]
lettergram 5y ago
You’d think so, but that’s already happening — taxes will be used and already are used, to subsidize water. Everyone is already paying more, but it’s not a direct correlation. This is part of the issues related to subsidizing resources. Further, only a few companies and families control the water rights. Many of those farmers purchased the water rights and water once used returns to the soil in many cases (plus evaporation, but that’s being reduced constantly with improved irrigation)
b3morales 5y ago
> pumping water from Oregon to California Oregon does not have a magical surplus supply of fresh water ready and willing to ship off to California. (Your link for that one is missing, by the way.)

kevin_b_er 5y ago

The farmers can use pretty much as much as they want from the aquifers and they pay that $70 for 325 thousand gallons of water. That's how individual water conservation pales in comparison to a farmer paying for $20 more in water. Or a new chip fab plant that uses millions of gallons of water per day.

throwawaysea 5y ago
For what it’s worth, chip fabs mostly recycle water. Intel is also funding water restoration projects to achieve net positive water use. See https://www.cnbc.com/2021/06/04/why-intel-tsmc-are-building-water-dependent-chip-plants-in-arizona.html https://www.cnbc.com/2021/06/04/why-intel-tsmc-are-building-... > Glenn O’Donnell, vice president and research director at analyst firm Forrester, told CNBC that chip fabrication plants “recycle water religiously,” adding that it’s a bit like a swimming pool in an enclosed building. > “You need a lot to fill it, but you don’t have to add much to keep it going,” he said. “Also, being in an enclosed space, a lot of the water that evaporates can be captured with a dehumidifier and returned to the pool. The fabs will do similar things with their own water usage.” > Intel notes on its website that it is striving to achieve “net positive water use” in Arizona and that it has funded 15 water restoration projects that aim to benefit the state. “Once fully implemented, these projects will restore an estimated 937 million gallons each year,” the company says.
- jcranmer 5y ago
  Note that most municipal water is recycled in similar fashion (something like 90% of tap water ends up in the sewers directly, and that's low-balling it)--which means you can get great mileage out of municipal systems just by sticking your water treatment intake downstream of your wastewater treatment effluent, although people are somewhat squeamish to discover that this happens. Agricultural use is pretty much the most effective way to export water out of the watershed--the water that is used in the crops is more likely to be lost due to envirotranspiration or simply literally part of the weight of the crop that is exported (especially for leafy crops like lettuce).

e40 5y ago

You are forgetting about aquifer depletion.

isoskeles 5y ago

Wouldn’t this also drive up prices of those crops? Not that it’s a bad thing, I’d rather we pay a fair price than something cheaper because the water is effectively subsidized. I’m curious what effect would occur on the prices of CA crops.

Someone 5y ago

The fear is that there’s an analogue to Keynes’ “Markets can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent” along the lines of “Markets can stay irrational until irreparable damage is done”. Some will say that hasn’t ever happened yet, so it won’t happen this time, either, but typically, those will also believe “Past performance is no guarantee of future results”, so that’s no guarantee it will never happen. In the end, this is a matter of belief. Also, even if we get to the “desalination plants and solar/nuclear fusion saved California”, we may end up with a different California, where “big water” has the power. Some will think that’s not an outcome we should aim for.

mwattsun 5y ago
> “Markets can stay irrational until irreparable damage is done” If we don't address this in regards to climate change then we have bigger problems, but thank goodness California is more forward thinking than most other states.

beej71 5y ago

I did the math a while ago and figured California would need a desal plant on every couple miles of coastline to meet its total water needs, including ag, assuming no other water sources. Something else has to give even with the current rain and snow levels. And I fear as a central Oregonian that we're going to have our own water problems. Planning to ship our water to California is a political third rail here, just like in the Owens River Valley.

JumpCrisscross 5y ago
> California would need a desal plant on every couple miles of coastline to meet its total water needs "Water needs" are price dependent. People will come up with unlimited ways to waste water at the prices California charges for it.
- bitcoinlogin 5y ago
  [flagged]

lettergram 5y ago

You’d think so, but that’s already happening — taxes will be used and already are used, to subsidize water. Everyone is already paying more, but it’s not a direct correlation. This is part of the issues related to subsidizing resources. Further, only a few companies and families control the water rights. Many of those farmers purchased the water rights and water once used returns to the soil in many cases (plus evaporation, but that’s being reduced constantly with improved irrigation)

b3morales 5y ago

> pumping water from Oregon to California Oregon does not have a magical surplus supply of fresh water ready and willing to ship off to California. (Your link for that one is missing, by the way.)