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I run a pretty decently-sized OSHW project that sells both b2b and b2c, and the biggest hurdle I can see is that this guy really likes making hurdles for himsel

I run a pretty decently-sized OSHW project that sells both b2b and b2c, and the biggest hurdle I can see is that this guy really likes making hurdles for himself. Literally every single one of the "business hurdles" can be either trivially solved or ignored completely. Payment processing takes 5 minutes to set up through PayPal or Stripe, and invoices can be generated manually for the few customers that actually ask for them through free online software like this: https://invoice-generator.com/ https://invoice-generator.com/ The rest literally don't matter at all, at least not until you're selling >$1k worth of software a month. I don't mean just practically, I mean legally, at least under Australian law. If things are significantly different in the UK or NL, I'd be very surprised! (I wouldn't call "Marketing" a hurdle either - it as much work as writing the software and requires as much skill!) Of the technical hurdles, the only one that is an actual that needs to be solved in order to release an MVP is "Website with payment processor and downloads". Set up a $5 Wordpress droplet on DigitalOcean, install WooCommerce and spend an afternoon customising things. Go Shopify and eat the comission if you want to make things even easier. The rest can come later, once you've validated that a market for your product exists at all!

amelius 5y ago
> (I wouldn't call "Marketing" a hurdle either - it as much work as writing the software and requires as much skill!) It can be a psychological hurdle for people who hate and haven't accepted the concept of marketing.
- AussieWog93 5y ago
  You could say the same about writing code. Getting over the mental hurdle is just the first step on a journey, though, not "job complete".
arka2147483647 5y ago
I think you are being too harsh. If you have never run a business there are a lot of things to learn and get right.
mpol 5y ago
Agreed with all your points, but to be fair, when starting on this it can easily feel as a burden, at least it did for me. I also sense some insecurity, which is a very human trait. And not in the least, it can be good to understand where you are starting with, including all the details, even though it might drive down motivation knowing all the details :) I prefer stepping in naively and figuring things out later on :) 1. In my experience, he wouldn't need to start a company right away, only when it really takes of. In the context of income tax in the Netherlands, there is a grey area between hobby and commercial activity, which is not easily defined. Only when it starts to structurally be part of his income, does he need to write it on his income tax papers and register a company. That won't be needed when he is only taking off. (Try or try not, there is no do (Yodi) ). 2. In regards to setting up a registered company, you do get lots of sollicitors at the door and on the telephone. He already mentioned the prepaid phone, not sure if a postbox is possible and what it costs. But for now, it is not needed, see point 1. (edit: the KvK doesn't allow a postbox as address, but there are companies that offer using an address of their business centre for around 500 Euro a year). 3. Setting up a website with WooCommerce or Easy Digital Downloads is easy peasy. At first I didn't go this route, expecting this would be burdersome. I used a marketplace which took 30% of my sales, in practice even a bit more. Two years later I started to get unhappy with that (their support was awful) and switched to WordPress/EDD with just PayPal payments and it has been just great. I should have done that right away from the start. To be fair, my marketing is already taken care of because of a free/gratis main software package.
sdoering 5y ago
> The rest literally don't matter at all, at least not until you're selling >$1k worth of software a month. I don't mean just practically, I mean legally, at least under Australian law. If things are significantly different in the UK or NL, I'd be very surprised! At least if you are in Germany you need to have a business incorporated when you want to sell to customers or businesses. You need to have a tax number/ID.and you need to provide not only an invoice, but in case of software also updates (at least from next year on, if you not have the customer explizitly opts out).
- Xylakant 5y ago
  > At least if you are in Germany you need to have a business incorporated when you want to sell to customers or businesses. No. You can act as a GbR. It’s a good idea to incorporate a limited liability company to shield your personal property from liability, but it’s not a requirement. If you do, a UG mbH will do just fine and is simple to set up, but requires proper bookkeeping. You need to register for tax and at the Gewerbeamt likely (depends, ask a tax accountant about your specific case) but both are trivial. You do need to provide an invoice, but there are tons of options to make that simple - a word template may be sufficient.
  - sdoering 5y ago
    A single person can't found a GbR. For that you need at least two people. And yes it is trivially easy to register for it. Also taxes are not too difficult.
    - Xylakant 5y ago
      A single person doesn’t need a GbR but can act as a single person. You just need to register for taxes and possibly with the Gewerbeamt.
medo-bear 5y ago
> I don't mean just practically, I mean legally, at least under Australian law. If things are significantly different in the UK or NL, I'd be very surprised! glad to see aussies here! however do know that the bureocracy in europe (EU and friends) and rules for small business operations are indeed significantly different (many more compliance requirements) than in australia. one thing that aussies will often find surprising are the compulsory monthly costs for running you own business (let alone a company)
emteycz 5y ago
European law is unfortunately very unfriendly to small businesses. For example, sending a correct invoice is a requirement, and you have to store them for at least 5 years. That can be done only if you have set up a corporation or self-employment and have obtained all the necessary identification numbers. Fortunately Stripe made things much easier, but still - beginning to process cards is lengthy. Paypal in Europe takes a very big commision and they will block your account and ask for the same lengthy card processing process after you make few thousands in sales. Taxes are hard to file yourself even if you do only local sales, and becomes impossible to manage yourself once you sell out of EU.

amelius 5y ago

> (I wouldn't call "Marketing" a hurdle either - it as much work as writing the software and requires as much skill!) It can be a psychological hurdle for people who hate and haven't accepted the concept of marketing.

AussieWog93 5y ago
You could say the same about writing code. Getting over the mental hurdle is just the first step on a journey, though, not "job complete".

arka2147483647 5y ago

I think you are being too harsh. If you have never run a business there are a lot of things to learn and get right.

mpol 5y ago

Agreed with all your points, but to be fair, when starting on this it can easily feel as a burden, at least it did for me. I also sense some insecurity, which is a very human trait. And not in the least, it can be good to understand where you are starting with, including all the details, even though it might drive down motivation knowing all the details :) I prefer stepping in naively and figuring things out later on :) 1. In my experience, he wouldn't need to start a company right away, only when it really takes of. In the context of income tax in the Netherlands, there is a grey area between hobby and commercial activity, which is not easily defined. Only when it starts to structurally be part of his income, does he need to write it on his income tax papers and register a company. That won't be needed when he is only taking off. (Try or try not, there is no do (Yodi) ). 2. In regards to setting up a registered company, you do get lots of sollicitors at the door and on the telephone. He already mentioned the prepaid phone, not sure if a postbox is possible and what it costs. But for now, it is not needed, see point 1. (edit: the KvK doesn't allow a postbox as address, but there are companies that offer using an address of their business centre for around 500 Euro a year). 3. Setting up a website with WooCommerce or Easy Digital Downloads is easy peasy. At first I didn't go this route, expecting this would be burdersome. I used a marketplace which took 30% of my sales, in practice even a bit more. Two years later I started to get unhappy with that (their support was awful) and switched to WordPress/EDD with just PayPal payments and it has been just great. I should have done that right away from the start. To be fair, my marketing is already taken care of because of a free/gratis main software package.

sdoering 5y ago

> The rest literally don't matter at all, at least not until you're selling >$1k worth of software a month. I don't mean just practically, I mean legally, at least under Australian law. If things are significantly different in the UK or NL, I'd be very surprised! At least if you are in Germany you need to have a business incorporated when you want to sell to customers or businesses. You need to have a tax number/ID.and you need to provide not only an invoice, but in case of software also updates (at least from next year on, if you not have the customer explizitly opts out).

Xylakant 5y ago
> At least if you are in Germany you need to have a business incorporated when you want to sell to customers or businesses. No. You can act as a GbR. It’s a good idea to incorporate a limited liability company to shield your personal property from liability, but it’s not a requirement. If you do, a UG mbH will do just fine and is simple to set up, but requires proper bookkeeping. You need to register for tax and at the Gewerbeamt likely (depends, ask a tax accountant about your specific case) but both are trivial. You do need to provide an invoice, but there are tons of options to make that simple - a word template may be sufficient.
- sdoering 5y ago
  A single person can't found a GbR. For that you need at least two people. And yes it is trivially easy to register for it. Also taxes are not too difficult.
  - Xylakant 5y ago
    A single person doesn’t need a GbR but can act as a single person. You just need to register for taxes and possibly with the Gewerbeamt.

medo-bear 5y ago

> I don't mean just practically, I mean legally, at least under Australian law. If things are significantly different in the UK or NL, I'd be very surprised! glad to see aussies here! however do know that the bureocracy in europe (EU and friends) and rules for small business operations are indeed significantly different (many more compliance requirements) than in australia. one thing that aussies will often find surprising are the compulsory monthly costs for running you own business (let alone a company)

emteycz 5y ago

European law is unfortunately very unfriendly to small businesses. For example, sending a correct invoice is a requirement, and you have to store them for at least 5 years. That can be done only if you have set up a corporation or self-employment and have obtained all the necessary identification numbers. Fortunately Stripe made things much easier, but still - beginning to process cards is lengthy. Paypal in Europe takes a very big commision and they will block your account and ask for the same lengthy card processing process after you make few thousands in sales. Taxes are hard to file yourself even if you do only local sales, and becomes impossible to manage yourself once you sell out of EU.