3 ms·

Many of the nice qualities of natural gas is the much higher power output. Gas burners go up to 60kw (normal kitchen burner is 9kw) while an electric resistance

Many of the nice qualities of natural gas is the much higher power output. Gas burners go up to 60kw (normal kitchen burner is 9kw) while an electric resistance stove is 2.6kw. We now have inductive stoves that can surpass electric resistance stoves in power output and can match burners more powerful than a typical industrial kitchen. tl;dr the need to deliver gas to anything other than a grid scale powerplant is over.

endisneigh 5y ago
I agree that we're trending to your conclusion, but we're not there yet. You're kidding if you think the electric grid, especially in NYC, could handle the removal of all gas appliances and replacement with high amperage electric appliances. You're talking about an order of magnitude (or even two) increase in electricity usage.
- sitkack 5y ago
  Not kidding, totally doable with batteries. The power density in hybrid car batteries is roughly 500Whr @ 50C, so max power output is 25kW. So 72s at max power, even at industrial cooking of 9kw we see 200s. At max home resistance heater output we see 700s of runtime. We can cook with batteries and have better performance than gas right now. Which means you don't even have to run 240v to the range. You can run a high power stove top off any regular circuit.
  - endisneigh 5y ago
    Where will these batteries be stored? How will the risk of a fire be mitigated? What's the plan for recycling the batteries or dealing with battery failure? The infrastructure should have a lot of redundancy - I like batteries but I personally wouldn't rely on them in extreme scenarios.
    - sitkack 5y ago
      We are talking about a battery pack that is 100x100x600mm. LiFeO4 and other chemistries don't have the same failure scenarios. A home stove is not an extreme scenario, I believe you are just throwing up chaff and moving some goal posts.
      - endisneigh 5y ago
        I'm not talking about stoves, I'm talking about your claim that "the need to deliver gas to anything other than a grid scale powerplant is over." It's just not true.
    - chillingeffect 5y ago
      >recycling Invest in ABML or several other companies :)
    - micromacrofoot 5y ago
      this is all stuff we’re going to figure out anyway, it’s already happening… replacing old appliances as they fail and retrofitting existing buildings will take much longer
- CydeWeys 5y ago
  > You're talking about an order of magnitude (or even two) increase in electricity usage. You're way off on this estimate. No way would the energy usage of NYC go up 10-100X! Those are absurd numbers!
  - endisneigh 5y ago
    Electricity usage, not energy. Electric heat, even a heat pump, uses orders of magnitude more electricity. Of course then we save on the efficiency of moving gas, but that wouldn’t necessarily be NYC
Manuel_D 5y ago
I know that this is talking about household energy use, but one of the larger uses of natural gas is metallurgy and industrial processes (like making fertilizer). Industrial natural gas use almost matches consumption for electricity generation in the US: https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/natural-gas/use-of-natural-gas.php https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/natural-gas/use-of-natur... Changing these systems to use something other than fossil fuels is a big conundrum. In theory, hydrogen could replace it. But almost all hydrogen today is generated via steam reformation (CH4 + 2O2 -> CO2 + 2H2) which emits greenhouse gases. Electrolysis powered by renewable power is theoretically possible, but scaling it up proves difficult. Some hypothesize that thermochemical hydrogen production [1] with heat provided by fission could produce hydrogen at the required scales. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermochemical_cycle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermochemical_cycle
- sitkack 5y ago
  We no longer need to deliver natural gas into cities to deliver power to a process, that was the original argument. Delivering it as a feedstock and or specific chemical heat source, sure.
  - Manuel_D 5y ago
    From the comment I responded to: > tl;dr the need to deliver gas to anything other than a grid scale powerplant is over. This is untrue. I explicitly acknowledged that the context is mostly in household use (did you miss that?), but this statement goes too far.
  - R0b0t1 5y ago
    Running a small induction forge takes ~20kW or so, about the max deliverable to a house, so no. This output is achievable with gas.

endisneigh 5y ago

I agree that we're trending to your conclusion, but we're not there yet. You're kidding if you think the electric grid, especially in NYC, could handle the removal of all gas appliances and replacement with high amperage electric appliances. You're talking about an order of magnitude (or even two) increase in electricity usage.

sitkack 5y ago
Not kidding, totally doable with batteries. The power density in hybrid car batteries is roughly 500Whr @ 50C, so max power output is 25kW. So 72s at max power, even at industrial cooking of 9kw we see 200s. At max home resistance heater output we see 700s of runtime. We can cook with batteries and have better performance than gas right now. Which means you don't even have to run 240v to the range. You can run a high power stove top off any regular circuit.
- endisneigh 5y ago
  Where will these batteries be stored? How will the risk of a fire be mitigated? What's the plan for recycling the batteries or dealing with battery failure? The infrastructure should have a lot of redundancy - I like batteries but I personally wouldn't rely on them in extreme scenarios.
  - sitkack 5y ago
    We are talking about a battery pack that is 100x100x600mm. LiFeO4 and other chemistries don't have the same failure scenarios. A home stove is not an extreme scenario, I believe you are just throwing up chaff and moving some goal posts.
    - endisneigh 5y ago
      I'm not talking about stoves, I'm talking about your claim that "the need to deliver gas to anything other than a grid scale powerplant is over." It's just not true.
  - chillingeffect 5y ago
    >recycling Invest in ABML or several other companies :)
  - micromacrofoot 5y ago
    this is all stuff we’re going to figure out anyway, it’s already happening… replacing old appliances as they fail and retrofitting existing buildings will take much longer
CydeWeys 5y ago
> You're talking about an order of magnitude (or even two) increase in electricity usage. You're way off on this estimate. No way would the energy usage of NYC go up 10-100X! Those are absurd numbers!
- endisneigh 5y ago
  Electricity usage, not energy. Electric heat, even a heat pump, uses orders of magnitude more electricity. Of course then we save on the efficiency of moving gas, but that wouldn’t necessarily be NYC

Manuel_D 5y ago

I know that this is talking about household energy use, but one of the larger uses of natural gas is metallurgy and industrial processes (like making fertilizer). Industrial natural gas use almost matches consumption for electricity generation in the US: https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/natural-gas/use-of-natural-gas.php https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/natural-gas/use-of-natur... Changing these systems to use something other than fossil fuels is a big conundrum. In theory, hydrogen could replace it. But almost all hydrogen today is generated via steam reformation (CH4 + 2O2 -> CO2 + 2H2) which emits greenhouse gases. Electrolysis powered by renewable power is theoretically possible, but scaling it up proves difficult. Some hypothesize that thermochemical hydrogen production [1] with heat provided by fission could produce hydrogen at the required scales. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermochemical_cycle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermochemical_cycle

sitkack 5y ago
We no longer need to deliver natural gas into cities to deliver power to a process, that was the original argument. Delivering it as a feedstock and or specific chemical heat source, sure.
- Manuel_D 5y ago
  From the comment I responded to: > tl;dr the need to deliver gas to anything other than a grid scale powerplant is over. This is untrue. I explicitly acknowledged that the context is mostly in household use (did you miss that?), but this statement goes too far.
- R0b0t1 5y ago
  Running a small induction forge takes ~20kW or so, about the max deliverable to a house, so no. This output is achievable with gas.