6 ms·

If we abolished MIQ then Aotearoa NZ would be riddled with COVID, many thousands or tens of thousands would have died, many many more living with chronic condit

If we abolished MIQ then Aotearoa NZ would be riddled with COVID, many thousands or tens of thousands would have died, many many more living with chronic conditions and the economy and society crippled. As it happens less than 50 have died, each one a tragedy, while I’ve just had a lovely Christmas with 3 generations, as many others are around the motu. Sure we had to video call relatives in other countries, but their lockdown conditions today were far far worse than what we have here. Our society has decided that nobody should die from COVID. That’s still the right answer. There were free MIQ slots 2 weeks ago.

josephcsible 5y ago
Do you think MIQ will stop community spread in New Zealand forever? If not, then all of those bad things will happen anyway, but by not abolishing MIQ, all of the bad things it causes will happen too. And if everyone were locked in an isolated room from birth, nobody would ever die of any contagious disease, but clearly that's not the right answer.
- bener 5y ago
  It will be abolished eventually, quite likely fairly soon.
- llukas 5y ago
  NZ needs to wait long enough until vaccines/treatment options are exists and are effective enough. FDA authorized covid pill two days ago: https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/coronavirus-covid-19-update-fda-authorizes-first-oral-antiviral-treatment-covid-19 https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/coronavi...
- jimjimjim 5y ago
  why do people always extrapolate everything to extremes? No one is forbidden from going to new zealand. You just have to queue. And ffs MIQ has SLOWED the spread. for instance no omicron in nz so there is time to study/research and raises vaccination levels to WHEN it gets in there will be less damage. why do things have to be never/forever? Why can't people think in terms of better/worse/later?
refurb 5y ago
Who said abolish it? How about actually designing a system with enough slots so citizens can freely return? Other countries have done this, and controlled Covid, so why can Australia or NZ do it?
- lcpriest 5y ago
  The parent comment said abolish it.
- InvertedRhodium 5y ago
  From the parent comment: > The MIQ system should be abolished
- jeeeb 5y ago
  Australia eliminated travel restrictions for citizens and hotel quarantine for incoming travellers a while ago. At worst you’ll do 3 days home quarantine. That’s not sensational though so it’s not reported on. Also COVID case numbers have exploded since then so I can kind of understand NZ being hesitant to do the same.
pierre-renaux 5y ago
Doesn't that just mean that NZ outsourced taking care of the expat NZ nationals that have Covid - and the cost of part of the Covid epidemic - to other countries though? Not allowing your own citizen to return home is something that should be unthinkable really.
- potatochup 5y ago
  To your first point: yes? This seems fairly reasonable as those expats are also paying taxes to their resident countries, not NZ.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
BuyMyBitcoins 5y ago
>”Our society has decided that nobody should die from COVID. That’s still the right answer.” This sentiment should terrify you. COVID is serious, but my god, there are so much more dangerous and lethal things out there. You’ve basically just given your government a virtual blank check to do as it pleases so long as the threat is sufficiently scary. >”many many more living with chronic conditions and the economy and society crippled.” You’re saying this would happen with widespread Covid, but this same outcome can happen with excessive containment. So many mom and pop small business have closed in my town since the pandemic began. And I live in America, where we aren’t nearly as restrictive.
- shkkmo 5y ago
  Hasn't NZ's draconian border restrictions been precisely what has allowed them to avoid the need to impose the types of burdensome local restrictions that threaten these small businesses?
  - roca 5y ago
    Exactly.
  - jordanthoms 5y ago
    We had less local restrictions than most other countries until delta hit 4 months ago - since then we've had a 3-month lockdown in our largest city and huge impact to small businesses, and we still have citizens locked out of the country. Deaths are comparatively low though.
- zacmps 5y ago
  > This sentiment should terrify you. COVID is serious, but my god, there are so much more dangerous and lethal things out there. You’ve basically just given your government a virtual blank check to do as it pleases so long as the threat is sufficiently scary. This is not even slightly true, if you were familiar with the local legislation and political climate you would know that; but you're not.
HamburgerEmoji 5y ago
ThrowAwayKiwi22 5y ago
Lance, honestly this is a pathetic reply. New Zealand is already riddled with Covid incase you havent noticed. Cases detected in the community outnumber those at the border 27x for the last week. Given this fact, why does MIQ still exist? Preventing new variants? Sure at the surface that might hold some credence, but that implies future responses will be to lock down again and impose massive economic costs and second/third order negative externalities on the population again... There will be more variants gauranteed, so what is being gauranteed here is perpetual restrictions, fragility and life in a hermit kingdom. On your point around Xmas with three generations, congratulations, but without rapid lateral flow at home testing (which is still unavailable in New Zealand - wowee!), you might have unknowingly just had a super spreading event. The slowness of NZ policy to adapt to technological innovations is a real blight. By the way New Zealands society decided no such thing; intellectual honesty goes a long way when presenting an arguement. Did we have a referendum to determine no one should die from covid? Its quite a perposterous thing to say. Reality is MIQ was a knee jerk reaction by the MoH in March '20, faced with the stark realisation healthcare and its supporting beuracratic system was not up for the job. It still isnt and has no path to getting there. That is the real tragedy. Big thinking and strategy is sorely needed in New Zealand. It's a shame all we get is confusion and people like yourself who think they know something trying to lead the narrative. I was once a proud Kiwi, now I look on from afar and am saddened at the squandered potential of the place, underacheivment and lack of awareness are rife.
- arbitrary_name 5y ago
  Great comment. A wonderful country, spoiled by the slackers and narrow minded twits in charge.
rosndo 5y ago
> Our society has decided that nobody should die from COVID. That’s still the right answer. This is hilarious. Why hasn’t your society decided that nobody should die from obesity? Obesity kills far more people every year than COVID ever will, and would be a far easier problem to solve through legislation. Why does NZ grant visas to obese people? Why are obese people allowed to go to restaurants or work? If the government made it difficult to be fat, far less people would die.
- dzhiurgis 5y ago
  > Why does NZ grant visas to obese people? They don’t. You go thru serious health check when getting work visa and then another check when applying for residency. If you are fat with serious health issues you won’t pass.
  - seanmcdirmid 5y ago
    > If you are fat with serious health issues you won’t pass. Obese doesn't mean morbidly obese. The former can get a work visa (very common actually) when the latter might not.
    - dzhiurgis 5y ago
      Being overweight myself I can attest of health issues even that can cause. High blood pressure > some protein in blood that might indicate kidney damage which in turn meant months of health checks. Same with a friend who had some lung abnormalities since birth - very stringent checks.
      - seanmcdirmid 5y ago
        Obese is anyone with a BMI over 30, 42% of Americans are obese. It isn’t the same thing as being morbidly obese. I doubt New Zealand automatically screens out anyone with a BMI over 30. Consider that Australia itself has an obesity rate of 30% (about the same as NZ), but then Australians don’t need visas to work in Nz.

josephcsible 5y ago

Do you think MIQ will stop community spread in New Zealand forever? If not, then all of those bad things will happen anyway, but by not abolishing MIQ, all of the bad things it causes will happen too. And if everyone were locked in an isolated room from birth, nobody would ever die of any contagious disease, but clearly that's not the right answer.

bener 5y ago
It will be abolished eventually, quite likely fairly soon.
llukas 5y ago
NZ needs to wait long enough until vaccines/treatment options are exists and are effective enough. FDA authorized covid pill two days ago: https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/coronavirus-covid-19-update-fda-authorizes-first-oral-antiviral-treatment-covid-19 https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/coronavi...
jimjimjim 5y ago
why do people always extrapolate everything to extremes? No one is forbidden from going to new zealand. You just have to queue. And ffs MIQ has SLOWED the spread. for instance no omicron in nz so there is time to study/research and raises vaccination levels to WHEN it gets in there will be less damage. why do things have to be never/forever? Why can't people think in terms of better/worse/later?

refurb 5y ago

Who said abolish it? How about actually designing a system with enough slots so citizens can freely return? Other countries have done this, and controlled Covid, so why can Australia or NZ do it?

lcpriest 5y ago
The parent comment said abolish it.
InvertedRhodium 5y ago
From the parent comment: > The MIQ system should be abolished
jeeeb 5y ago
Australia eliminated travel restrictions for citizens and hotel quarantine for incoming travellers a while ago. At worst you’ll do 3 days home quarantine. That’s not sensational though so it’s not reported on. Also COVID case numbers have exploded since then so I can kind of understand NZ being hesitant to do the same.

pierre-renaux 5y ago

Doesn't that just mean that NZ outsourced taking care of the expat NZ nationals that have Covid - and the cost of part of the Covid epidemic - to other countries though? Not allowing your own citizen to return home is something that should be unthinkable really.

potatochup 5y ago
To your first point: yes? This seems fairly reasonable as those expats are also paying taxes to their resident countries, not NZ.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]

BuyMyBitcoins 5y ago

>”Our society has decided that nobody should die from COVID. That’s still the right answer.” This sentiment should terrify you. COVID is serious, but my god, there are so much more dangerous and lethal things out there. You’ve basically just given your government a virtual blank check to do as it pleases so long as the threat is sufficiently scary. >”many many more living with chronic conditions and the economy and society crippled.” You’re saying this would happen with widespread Covid, but this same outcome can happen with excessive containment. So many mom and pop small business have closed in my town since the pandemic began. And I live in America, where we aren’t nearly as restrictive.

shkkmo 5y ago
Hasn't NZ's draconian border restrictions been precisely what has allowed them to avoid the need to impose the types of burdensome local restrictions that threaten these small businesses?
- roca 5y ago
  Exactly.
- jordanthoms 5y ago
  We had less local restrictions than most other countries until delta hit 4 months ago - since then we've had a 3-month lockdown in our largest city and huge impact to small businesses, and we still have citizens locked out of the country. Deaths are comparatively low though.
zacmps 5y ago
> This sentiment should terrify you. COVID is serious, but my god, there are so much more dangerous and lethal things out there. You’ve basically just given your government a virtual blank check to do as it pleases so long as the threat is sufficiently scary. This is not even slightly true, if you were familiar with the local legislation and political climate you would know that; but you're not.

HamburgerEmoji 5y ago

ThrowAwayKiwi22 5y ago

Lance, honestly this is a pathetic reply. New Zealand is already riddled with Covid incase you havent noticed. Cases detected in the community outnumber those at the border 27x for the last week. Given this fact, why does MIQ still exist? Preventing new variants? Sure at the surface that might hold some credence, but that implies future responses will be to lock down again and impose massive economic costs and second/third order negative externalities on the population again... There will be more variants gauranteed, so what is being gauranteed here is perpetual restrictions, fragility and life in a hermit kingdom. On your point around Xmas with three generations, congratulations, but without rapid lateral flow at home testing (which is still unavailable in New Zealand - wowee!), you might have unknowingly just had a super spreading event. The slowness of NZ policy to adapt to technological innovations is a real blight. By the way New Zealands society decided no such thing; intellectual honesty goes a long way when presenting an arguement. Did we have a referendum to determine no one should die from covid? Its quite a perposterous thing to say. Reality is MIQ was a knee jerk reaction by the MoH in March '20, faced with the stark realisation healthcare and its supporting beuracratic system was not up for the job. It still isnt and has no path to getting there. That is the real tragedy. Big thinking and strategy is sorely needed in New Zealand. It's a shame all we get is confusion and people like yourself who think they know something trying to lead the narrative. I was once a proud Kiwi, now I look on from afar and am saddened at the squandered potential of the place, underacheivment and lack of awareness are rife.

arbitrary_name 5y ago
Great comment. A wonderful country, spoiled by the slackers and narrow minded twits in charge.

rosndo 5y ago

> Our society has decided that nobody should die from COVID. That’s still the right answer. This is hilarious. Why hasn’t your society decided that nobody should die from obesity? Obesity kills far more people every year than COVID ever will, and would be a far easier problem to solve through legislation. Why does NZ grant visas to obese people? Why are obese people allowed to go to restaurants or work? If the government made it difficult to be fat, far less people would die.

dzhiurgis 5y ago
> Why does NZ grant visas to obese people? They don’t. You go thru serious health check when getting work visa and then another check when applying for residency. If you are fat with serious health issues you won’t pass.
- seanmcdirmid 5y ago
  > If you are fat with serious health issues you won’t pass. Obese doesn't mean morbidly obese. The former can get a work visa (very common actually) when the latter might not.
  - dzhiurgis 5y ago
    Being overweight myself I can attest of health issues even that can cause. High blood pressure > some protein in blood that might indicate kidney damage which in turn meant months of health checks. Same with a friend who had some lung abnormalities since birth - very stringent checks.
    - seanmcdirmid 5y ago
      Obese is anyone with a BMI over 30, 42% of Americans are obese. It isn’t the same thing as being morbidly obese. I doubt New Zealand automatically screens out anyone with a BMI over 30. Consider that Australia itself has an obesity rate of 30% (about the same as NZ), but then Australians don’t need visas to work in Nz.