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In New Zealand we try to have something called the Rule of Law. The same laws and regulations apply to everyone regardless of wealth or political connection. T

In New Zealand we try to have something called the Rule of Law. The same laws and regulations apply to everyone regardless of wealth or political connection. The rule of law is the key innovation that allowed the industrial revolution to take place bringing the West to its present rich and free lifestyle. Adherence to the rule of law is a major reason why NZ is regularly in the top 5 countries globally for lack of corruption, transparency, and ease of doing business. Abandoning the rule of law leads eventually to autocracy. From this distance the US appears to be well down that road.

cryptodan 5y ago
The visa programs should be halted until all citizens can equally compete. There is no fair competition here. The quarantined are being pissed on while wealthy players continue to live freely. Do you not understand that? Rules for thee but nit for me applies here.
- gaadd33 5y ago
  I don't fully know everything about the MIQ program but it seems like citizens can compete for spaces on an equal basis and this adds the visa applicants to the pool. So while it reduces their chances of being picked from 1 out of x to 1 out of (x + y) it seems like it's still fair? If the MIQ program is similar to some citizenship programs where you get points for things and this is giving them as many or more points than just having citizenship does, I would agree it's unfair.
- bener 5y ago
  I think your are misunderstanding. The visa programme does not allow you to skip the queue for MIQ. It just gives you a higher chance at a visa if you are rich. It's not going to affect NZ citizens trying to return home, because they find need visas.
refurb 5y ago
But this is the rule of law? These folks with their new visas line up just like everyone else for an MIQ slot?
- tuatoru 5y ago
  The same rule for everyone regardless of wealth or political connection.
  - newnamenewface 5y ago
    Something makes me doubt you could point out any society in history where the rich and well-connected are treated like everyone else. Not to say I think this is necessarily a good thing (or necessarily a bad thing, either) but them's the rules of the world.
  - vulcan01 5y ago
    Does NZ not benefit from this system? I mean, it seems like a good deal to me - attracting large amounts of local investment in return for something fairly small.
    - pixel_fcker 5y ago
      Yes it is a good deal. This is manufactured outrage.
    - dzhiurgis 5y ago
      Kiwi’s don’t like rich people, tho most are obscenely rich themselves via capital gains… go figure.
  - refurb 5y ago
    It’s is the same rule? Once you have a visa, you apply for MIQ. These visa applicants getting into line like everyone else. If you’re talking about the visa itself, these rich folks are getting approved through an immigration pathway approved by parliament. Nobody is taking any shortcuts here.
parkingrift 5y ago
Which part of the rule of law is being violated here?
- cookiengineer 5y ago
  In regards to corruption and political connections I can recommend taking a look at senate stock watcher [1] which sometimes make it obvious what senator was responsible for which bill, specifically. [1] https://senatestockwatcher.com/ https://senatestockwatcher.com/ (edit: the parent comment was asking about violations of rule of law "over here" referring to the US being down that road in its parent comment)
  - ProjectArcturis 5y ago
    That is a US site and has nothing to do with the issue at hand.
  - gaadd33 5y ago
    I might be missing something but I'm not sure what that has to do with New Zealand. From a quick glance, there didn't seem to be any information related to the country mentioned.
fennecfoxen 5y ago
You are not describing Rule of Law. The rule of law is what you use to say that people are treated according to the law, not given special exceptions or punishments because of how much they are liked or hated. The opposite of the rule of law is generally the “rule of men” and is typified by the powerful having the discretion to punish enemies on a whim. Consider, for instance, someone who brings forth a charge of sexual assault against a minister, and is disappeared. The law, however, seems to be followed here. What you are describing, in any event, is more about Equal Treatment Under the Law, in a moral sense (avoiding any excuse that could read like “anyone can invest $10 million so it’s technically open to everyone”). But as others here say, the visa holders get in line for limited quarantine facilities like anyone else. It seems like the outrage is about these brand-new residents getting equal treatment with current residents, instead of the current residents getting priority. There is a reasonable case you should prioritize existing citizens over new residents, as they likely have greater reliance interests on their legal residence, but it’s not any rule-of-law or equal-treatment claim.
- nowherebeen 5y ago
  > It seems like the outrage is about these brand-new residents getting equal treatment with current residents, instead of the current residents getting priority. This seems flawed to me. Do poor people get to queue up for MIQ? No, because they can’t qualify for the visa scheme because they aren’t rich enough. So it’s not really equal treatment for these new residents because they are already given an advantage because of their money. They qualify simply because they are rich. Equal treatment would be letting all foreigners apply for the same visa scheme based on non-monetary merits such as occupation.
  - fennecfoxen 5y ago
    I'm very much for radically open borders — in economic terms, it's one of those twenty-trillion dollar bills lying around on the sidewalk that no one has picked up yet. And okay, that's a reasonable point to make — in isolation. But in context, do you honestly suggest that the New Zealand outrage described here would be remedied by opening more visas to more people, and getting them into the quarantine?
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
aunty_helen 5y ago
Honestly, the entire MIQ program is a gross violation of the bill of rights and several international treaties. So I don't think the rule of law goes very far in NZ as they seem to just handwave it away and most people in NZ couldn't care less because of the fear they have from living reasonably isolated for the past year and a half. NZers should expect to be on the hook for at least a few class action lawsuits for damages. For example people who have watched loved ones die on a video call because they haven't been rightfully allowed back into their country. It's going to cost in the long run but the dust hasn't settled yet. I'll be joining up for damages and a few months extra living costs placed on me before I could get a MIQ spot.
- lcpriest 5y ago
  I don't think the NZ bill of rights is applied the same way as other countries. > Section 4 specifically denies the Act any supremacy over other legislation. The section states that Courts looking at cases under the Act cannot implicitly repeal or revoke, or make invalid or ineffective, or decline to apply any provision of any statute made by parliament, whether before or after the Act was passed because it is inconsistent with any provision of this Bill of Rights. Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealand_Bill_of_Rights_Act_1990 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealand_Bill_of_Rights_Act...
  - inter_netuser 5y ago
    why would they include something like that? whats the point of such bill of rights, if it has no supremacy?
    - strontium_90 5y ago
      New Zealand’s unicameral parliament, has supremacy over all other parts of government [1] and cannot be overruled or contradicted by any prior parliament’s legislation … the bill of right’s drafting reflects this. As a consequence of New Zealand’s somewhat atypical political history (as a former British colony without a federation treaty or other founding constitutional document), it’s not really possible to entrench any legislation so it can’t be overruled by a normal majority of a subsequent parliament. [1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parliamentary_sovereignty https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parliamentary_sovereignty
onphonenow 5y ago
Um, folks get a visa and wait in line for MIQ. That's both the law and just like everyone else with a visa. Are you supporting mob rule? If so, you might wish to move to another country where "outrage" can lead to people getting killed right on the street in front of you. Seriously, if you see "outraged" in a headline, be careful.
- mattdw 5y ago
  NZ isn't currently issuing visas outside of a few categories of "special worker in shortage". (In order to citizens and residents a better chance at getting a quarantine spot.) So this introduces a new special exception for the very wealthy.
  - collegeburner 5y ago
    In the biggest economic slump since the Great Depression maybe it makes sense to consider rich people who invest lots of money into the economy a "specialized worker" since they might play an important role helping recovery.
    - postingawayonhn 5y ago
      And that's fair enough but if there are limited spots they should go to existing NZ citizens/residents, and those with the greatest m=need should be prioritised.
    - dzhiurgis 5y ago
      Biggest economic slump where 75% of population just doubled their salary via capital gains..?
unethical_ban 5y ago
Your tone is getting backlash, not your point. It's fair to say that citizens should not be put ahead of noncitizens trying to get back into the country during a crisis. Let's say a time comes when every NZ'er who wants to get back to the country can do so immediately. Do you think it would be wrong for NZ to prioritize immigrants who can bring material wealth to the economy in general (not to politicians specifically)? It's the monetary equivalent of importing intelligent students to top-tier graduate programs.
cscurmudgeon 5y ago
Why does every discussion about some random country have to involve the US? It is getting really boring seeing the same mid-brow flawed arguments rehashed everywhere from Reddit's worldnews to HN. Btw, NZ can afford to maintain a top spot on all these lists because it is a gated country with population less than that of NYC. NZ's borders have always been closed for the world's poor. Now it is closed for non-elites and the just plain rich are revolting against it. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jun/22/on-the-edge-are-new-zealands-tough-immigration-rules-harming-the-economy https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jun/22/on-the-edge-ar... > Critics say failing to allow family members to join skilled workers will undermine post-pandemic recovery If the US did a fraction of that for H1B workers, there would have been virtue signaling speeches in the UN. https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/tough-rules-see-migrants-give-up-and-go-home/6H34E3YNQ7ADFRJJDACZMG2EYM/ https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/tough-rules-see-migrants-give-... Be a bit more generous like the US for immigration, and then we will see how the US and NZ fare.
- someguydave 5y ago
  auctioning visas to the highest bidder seems like the fairest system
  - cscurmudgeon 5y ago
    No it doesn't.
AmericanChopper 5y ago
> Adherence to the rule of law is a major reason why NZ is regularly in the top 5 countries globally for lack of corruption This corruptions indices are pretty much always “corruption perception” indices, as in, New Zealanders consider their country to be less corrupt than other countries, not that it actually is less corrupt than other countries.
GuB-42 5y ago
Unless I didn't understand the situation, these "wealthy" visas are the law. Rule of law doesn't mean the law can't make a difference between the rich and the poor, in fact, it is very common in tax law (the rich pay more taxes), but not only. Rule of law just means "no corruption", essentially. That the laws are the only criteria for judging people, it is not a discussion about the fairness of the law itself. It there is a "no parking" sign, then under the rule of law, no one will be allowed to park, including Bob, who will be fined/towed like everyone else. But if the sign says "no parking, except for Bob", then Bob will be allowed to park even if people find it unfair. Usually, high rule of law countries are also democracies, so laws are made by elected officials, or even directly by people, and fairness is an important part of the lawmaking process. Indeed, people are usually reticent to apply laws they feel unfair, but technically, rule of law can apply even in the most unfair, despotic systems.
janeroe 5y ago
> In New Zealand we try to have something called the Rule of Law. > From this distance the US appears to be well down that road. And yet you're the ones who are locked.
sofixa 5y ago
> The rule of law is the key innovation that allowed the industrial revolution to take place bringing the West to its present rich and free lifestyle. The industrialisation of Tsarist Russia kind of disproves that. > Abandoning the rule of law leads eventually to autocracy. From this distance the US appears to be well down that road. I agree with that.
chrisseaton 5y ago
> we try to have something called the Rule of Law Not sure why you’re talking about the idea rule of law like it’s something New Zealand invented or is somehow novel or unique?

cryptodan 5y ago

The visa programs should be halted until all citizens can equally compete. There is no fair competition here. The quarantined are being pissed on while wealthy players continue to live freely. Do you not understand that? Rules for thee but nit for me applies here.

gaadd33 5y ago
I don't fully know everything about the MIQ program but it seems like citizens can compete for spaces on an equal basis and this adds the visa applicants to the pool. So while it reduces their chances of being picked from 1 out of x to 1 out of (x + y) it seems like it's still fair? If the MIQ program is similar to some citizenship programs where you get points for things and this is giving them as many or more points than just having citizenship does, I would agree it's unfair.
bener 5y ago
I think your are misunderstanding. The visa programme does not allow you to skip the queue for MIQ. It just gives you a higher chance at a visa if you are rich. It's not going to affect NZ citizens trying to return home, because they find need visas.

refurb 5y ago

But this is the rule of law? These folks with their new visas line up just like everyone else for an MIQ slot?

tuatoru 5y ago
The same rule for everyone regardless of wealth or political connection.
- newnamenewface 5y ago
  Something makes me doubt you could point out any society in history where the rich and well-connected are treated like everyone else. Not to say I think this is necessarily a good thing (or necessarily a bad thing, either) but them's the rules of the world.
- vulcan01 5y ago
  Does NZ not benefit from this system? I mean, it seems like a good deal to me - attracting large amounts of local investment in return for something fairly small.
  - pixel_fcker 5y ago
    Yes it is a good deal. This is manufactured outrage.
  - dzhiurgis 5y ago
    Kiwi’s don’t like rich people, tho most are obscenely rich themselves via capital gains… go figure.
- refurb 5y ago
  It’s is the same rule? Once you have a visa, you apply for MIQ. These visa applicants getting into line like everyone else. If you’re talking about the visa itself, these rich folks are getting approved through an immigration pathway approved by parliament. Nobody is taking any shortcuts here.

parkingrift 5y ago

Which part of the rule of law is being violated here?

cookiengineer 5y ago
In regards to corruption and political connections I can recommend taking a look at senate stock watcher [1] which sometimes make it obvious what senator was responsible for which bill, specifically. [1] https://senatestockwatcher.com/ https://senatestockwatcher.com/ (edit: the parent comment was asking about violations of rule of law "over here" referring to the US being down that road in its parent comment)
- ProjectArcturis 5y ago
  That is a US site and has nothing to do with the issue at hand.
- gaadd33 5y ago
  I might be missing something but I'm not sure what that has to do with New Zealand. From a quick glance, there didn't seem to be any information related to the country mentioned.

fennecfoxen 5y ago

You are not describing Rule of Law. The rule of law is what you use to say that people are treated according to the law, not given special exceptions or punishments because of how much they are liked or hated. The opposite of the rule of law is generally the “rule of men” and is typified by the powerful having the discretion to punish enemies on a whim. Consider, for instance, someone who brings forth a charge of sexual assault against a minister, and is disappeared. The law, however, seems to be followed here. What you are describing, in any event, is more about Equal Treatment Under the Law, in a moral sense (avoiding any excuse that could read like “anyone can invest $10 million so it’s technically open to everyone”). But as others here say, the visa holders get in line for limited quarantine facilities like anyone else. It seems like the outrage is about these brand-new residents getting equal treatment with current residents, instead of the current residents getting priority. There is a reasonable case you should prioritize existing citizens over new residents, as they likely have greater reliance interests on their legal residence, but it’s not any rule-of-law or equal-treatment claim.

nowherebeen 5y ago
> It seems like the outrage is about these brand-new residents getting equal treatment with current residents, instead of the current residents getting priority. This seems flawed to me. Do poor people get to queue up for MIQ? No, because they can’t qualify for the visa scheme because they aren’t rich enough. So it’s not really equal treatment for these new residents because they are already given an advantage because of their money. They qualify simply because they are rich. Equal treatment would be letting all foreigners apply for the same visa scheme based on non-monetary merits such as occupation.
- fennecfoxen 5y ago
  I'm very much for radically open borders — in economic terms, it's one of those twenty-trillion dollar bills lying around on the sidewalk that no one has picked up yet. And okay, that's a reasonable point to make — in isolation. But in context, do you honestly suggest that the New Zealand outrage described here would be remedied by opening more visas to more people, and getting them into the quarantine?

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

aunty_helen 5y ago

Honestly, the entire MIQ program is a gross violation of the bill of rights and several international treaties. So I don't think the rule of law goes very far in NZ as they seem to just handwave it away and most people in NZ couldn't care less because of the fear they have from living reasonably isolated for the past year and a half. NZers should expect to be on the hook for at least a few class action lawsuits for damages. For example people who have watched loved ones die on a video call because they haven't been rightfully allowed back into their country. It's going to cost in the long run but the dust hasn't settled yet. I'll be joining up for damages and a few months extra living costs placed on me before I could get a MIQ spot.

lcpriest 5y ago
I don't think the NZ bill of rights is applied the same way as other countries. > Section 4 specifically denies the Act any supremacy over other legislation. The section states that Courts looking at cases under the Act cannot implicitly repeal or revoke, or make invalid or ineffective, or decline to apply any provision of any statute made by parliament, whether before or after the Act was passed because it is inconsistent with any provision of this Bill of Rights. Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealand_Bill_of_Rights_Act_1990 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealand_Bill_of_Rights_Act...
- inter_netuser 5y ago
  why would they include something like that? whats the point of such bill of rights, if it has no supremacy?
  - strontium_90 5y ago
    New Zealand’s unicameral parliament, has supremacy over all other parts of government [1] and cannot be overruled or contradicted by any prior parliament’s legislation … the bill of right’s drafting reflects this. As a consequence of New Zealand’s somewhat atypical political history (as a former British colony without a federation treaty or other founding constitutional document), it’s not really possible to entrench any legislation so it can’t be overruled by a normal majority of a subsequent parliament. [1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parliamentary_sovereignty https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parliamentary_sovereignty

onphonenow 5y ago

Um, folks get a visa and wait in line for MIQ. That's both the law and just like everyone else with a visa. Are you supporting mob rule? If so, you might wish to move to another country where "outrage" can lead to people getting killed right on the street in front of you. Seriously, if you see "outraged" in a headline, be careful.

mattdw 5y ago
NZ isn't currently issuing visas outside of a few categories of "special worker in shortage". (In order to citizens and residents a better chance at getting a quarantine spot.) So this introduces a new special exception for the very wealthy.
- collegeburner 5y ago
  In the biggest economic slump since the Great Depression maybe it makes sense to consider rich people who invest lots of money into the economy a "specialized worker" since they might play an important role helping recovery.
  - postingawayonhn 5y ago
    And that's fair enough but if there are limited spots they should go to existing NZ citizens/residents, and those with the greatest m=need should be prioritised.
  - dzhiurgis 5y ago
    Biggest economic slump where 75% of population just doubled their salary via capital gains..?

unethical_ban 5y ago

Your tone is getting backlash, not your point. It's fair to say that citizens should not be put ahead of noncitizens trying to get back into the country during a crisis. Let's say a time comes when every NZ'er who wants to get back to the country can do so immediately. Do you think it would be wrong for NZ to prioritize immigrants who can bring material wealth to the economy in general (not to politicians specifically)? It's the monetary equivalent of importing intelligent students to top-tier graduate programs.

cscurmudgeon 5y ago

Why does every discussion about some random country have to involve the US? It is getting really boring seeing the same mid-brow flawed arguments rehashed everywhere from Reddit's worldnews to HN. Btw, NZ can afford to maintain a top spot on all these lists because it is a gated country with population less than that of NYC. NZ's borders have always been closed for the world's poor. Now it is closed for non-elites and the just plain rich are revolting against it. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jun/22/on-the-edge-are-new-zealands-tough-immigration-rules-harming-the-economy https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jun/22/on-the-edge-ar... > Critics say failing to allow family members to join skilled workers will undermine post-pandemic recovery If the US did a fraction of that for H1B workers, there would have been virtue signaling speeches in the UN. https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/tough-rules-see-migrants-give-up-and-go-home/6H34E3YNQ7ADFRJJDACZMG2EYM/ https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/tough-rules-see-migrants-give-... Be a bit more generous like the US for immigration, and then we will see how the US and NZ fare.

someguydave 5y ago
auctioning visas to the highest bidder seems like the fairest system
- cscurmudgeon 5y ago
  No it doesn't.

AmericanChopper 5y ago

> Adherence to the rule of law is a major reason why NZ is regularly in the top 5 countries globally for lack of corruption This corruptions indices are pretty much always “corruption perception” indices, as in, New Zealanders consider their country to be less corrupt than other countries, not that it actually is less corrupt than other countries.

GuB-42 5y ago

Unless I didn't understand the situation, these "wealthy" visas are the law. Rule of law doesn't mean the law can't make a difference between the rich and the poor, in fact, it is very common in tax law (the rich pay more taxes), but not only. Rule of law just means "no corruption", essentially. That the laws are the only criteria for judging people, it is not a discussion about the fairness of the law itself. It there is a "no parking" sign, then under the rule of law, no one will be allowed to park, including Bob, who will be fined/towed like everyone else. But if the sign says "no parking, except for Bob", then Bob will be allowed to park even if people find it unfair. Usually, high rule of law countries are also democracies, so laws are made by elected officials, or even directly by people, and fairness is an important part of the lawmaking process. Indeed, people are usually reticent to apply laws they feel unfair, but technically, rule of law can apply even in the most unfair, despotic systems.

janeroe 5y ago

> In New Zealand we try to have something called the Rule of Law. > From this distance the US appears to be well down that road. And yet you're the ones who are locked.

sofixa 5y ago

> The rule of law is the key innovation that allowed the industrial revolution to take place bringing the West to its present rich and free lifestyle. The industrialisation of Tsarist Russia kind of disproves that. > Abandoning the rule of law leads eventually to autocracy. From this distance the US appears to be well down that road. I agree with that.

chrisseaton 5y ago

> we try to have something called the Rule of Law Not sure why you’re talking about the idea rule of law like it’s something New Zealand invented or is somehow novel or unique?