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Erdoğan claims that lowering interest rates to zero or near zero is more in line with Islamic principles, which may be true (according to interpretation of Isla

Erdoğan claims that lowering interest rates to zero or near zero is more in line with Islamic principles, which may be true (according to interpretation of Islamic principles, I assume). This is a bold move that reinforces what was already suspected: he is continuing to solidify his power by appealing to Islamic sympathies. During the recent coup calls to resist the belligerents were broadcast over mosque loudspeakers and throats were being slit in the street. Praises to Allah could be heard. Ataturk strengthened Turkey by moving it away from the regional Islamic influences. He changed the alphabet and implemented laws to guide Turkey toward a secular culture. Islam was acceptable (as Turkey was attempting to be a "free" republic), but not compulsory. If Erdoğan continues to mold Turkey's future Turkey will soon look more like Syria in terms of culture, and less like Western Europe, which it recently did.

midasuni 5y ago
Paradox of tolerance.
beebeepka 5y ago
Heh. I wasn't aware religious beliefs include monetary policies. I just hope they don't start another war out of desperation.
- hereforphone 5y ago
  One big concern is that Erdoğan will likely hold on to power however he can. He's already circumvented the constitution (and changed electoral law). I believe he will fight to maintain his reign if necessary. He has about 50% of the country behind him, and as far as I can tell the allegiance is based on religious principles, which makes it a strong allegiance indeed.
  - 1cvmask 5y ago
    Donald Trump only won 46.1% of the vote in 2016 and that was enough. In fact no one got over 50%. Hillary Clinton had a plurality with 48.2% https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_United_States_presidential_election https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_United_States_presidentia... In England David Cameron had a parliamentary majority with only 38% of the vote.
    - adventured 5y ago
      That's actual voters of course, a subset of how many people support a candidate or President in the US. The parent has no idea how many people support Erdogan (the claimed 50%), nobody does. It's just a guess in the wind (if it's 42% that's a massive difference from 54%, as to whether Erdogan remains standing). Like trying to guess how many Russians really support Putin's dictatorship. Getting honest answers on such questions is quite difficult, as is accurately polling in nations the size and complexity of eg the US, Russia or Turkey.
    - eynsham 5y ago
      In England in 2015, Cameron had 40.9% apparently (https://www.statista.com/statistics/717022/general-elections-voter-turnout-by-party-england/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/717022/general-elections...). The point still stands—he had far more than 40.9% of English seats! On the other hand, the Turkish electoral system can fail even more bizarrely than a simple single-member constituency FPTP system—in 2002, only the CHP and AKP cleared the 10% threshold, so the AKP had ⅔ of the votes. However, at the moment, the president is directly elected, so anything <50% wouldn’t suffice. (How those votes are obtained, of course, is another matter.)
- thatguy0900 5y ago
  Many religions have laws about interest and usury. Catholics were unable to lend with interest between each other for a very long time. I suppose it's not a stretch to say if a person can't charge interest the government shouldn't be doing it either.
  - beebeepka 5y ago
    Your last sentence makes sense
DSingularity 5y ago
Throats were slit? I never read that. If you believe in democracy you would celebrate the failure of a coup. Even if you hate the surviving leader, you ought to prefer defeating him within the frameworks of democracy. You seem to really dislike Muslim culture. If the people of Turkey want their culture to closer to that of Syria instead of Germany, what’s the problem?
- nickff 5y ago
  >"If you believe in democracy you would celebrate the failure of a coup. Even if you hate the surviving leader, you ought to prefer defeating him within the frameworks of democracy." You are supposing that the once freely-elected leader will permit a reversion to 'free' democracy. In fact, rigged elections form the basis of stable autocracies. Outright juntas and dictatorships are actually more likely to transition to 'free' democracies.[1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Logic_of_Political_Survival https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Logic_of_Political_Surviva...
- grenoire 5y ago
  The problem is that people suffer the transition's consequences. The current state of affairs has driven a rather large part of the country's population, who share Western ideals and want to pursue them for their nation, prefer a coup over whatever this ongoing messy loss of wealth and human capital is (certainly not 'democracy,' though). That should be telling, but it's hard to have Westerners empathise, I guess?
- wheelerof4te 5y ago
  Westerners think that their culture is the greatest of all time, how could you not accept it? They are even exporting it together with their bombs and missiles in case you don't comply /s But seriously, if their "culture" consists of gender theories, Holywood movies, superhero novels and the like, they can keep their culture.
  - lostlogin 5y ago
    You’ve picked a subset of a subset of a subset. There is a little more to it than that, and a similar style summary of your preferred culture would be pretty dark.
forvelin 5y ago
It has nothing to do with religious beliefs, its all about gathering capital on his side. He is just abusing peoples' religious beliefs. Everybody knows the new savings scheme he introduced is essentially increasing interest rates. Contrary to popular belief, I do not think that Erdogan will continue to mold Turkey's future. So far Turkey always had 40-50% opposition which could not unit, but now they are all united and next time it is certainly going to tip the scale in the right way. He will do everything to delay the elections or call them at the right time -like now ?- but his plans don't always work out -not far, look to recent Istanbul elections he lost.
- 1cvmask 5y ago
  He lost all three of the biggest cities of Istanbul, Ankara and Izmir. Yet his coalition actually increased their total votes in the municipal elections by getting more votes in other cities.
- costac 5y ago
  > Everybody knows the new savings scheme he introduced is essentially increasing interest rates. This is not true. Raising interest rates would mean raising the cost of funding for the banking system. Under the new saving scheme, since the Treasury pays depositors the extra yield, the cost for banks remains unchanged. As does the marginal cost of borrowing from the central bank. The new saving scheme is a free dollar call sold by the country's Treasury to depositors. And it will pay it out by printing money.
  - howmayiannoyyou 5y ago
    > printing money Something it cannot do without increasing its own borrowing costs, and reducing the import purchasing power of its currency. This has been tried and doesn't work: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Wednesday https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Wednesday
    - selectodude 5y ago
      Anybody with even a cursory knowledge of macroeconomics knows it won’t work. Erdogan just doesn’t happen to be one of those people. It’s tragic.
smnrchrds 5y ago
> Islam was acceptable (as Turkey was attempting to be a "free" republic), but not compulsory. Until Erdogan overturned it, there was a ban on women wearing hijab (the head covering , that the vast majority of Muslims consider a basic tenet of their religion) in universities in Turkey. I leave the judgment to you, but personally I wouldn't consider asking millions of people to choose between adhering to their religion and getting a higher education to be treating their religion as "acceptable, just not compulsary". https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-11880622 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-11880622
- Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
  - Cyph0n 5y ago
    And the solution to that imaginary problem is.. to ban all women from wearing hijab? Excellent logic.
    - istinetz 5y ago
      Well, yes. What solution do you propose? Mass propaganda? Perhaps possible in 2021, but it wouldn't have been as effective in the 1930s.
      - Cyph0n 5y ago
        Why did you use the word “propaganda”? Why not “education”? Regardless of the time period, I would simply propose focusing on educating current and future generations that men and women have equal rights. If you dig into history a bit, you’ll find that state-sponsored persecution - ethnic, religious, or otherwise - is almost always guaranteed to backfire in the long run.
        worik 5y ago
        But what is the problem? It may have a religious origin but a headscarf is a fashion accessory. Like trousers or shirt buttons. We could ban them too, just for fun! Up with skirts! Down with trousers! See? What fun!
wheelerof4te 5y ago
Syria was a prosperous and deeply secular country, with many cultural sites dating back to the ancient world. At least it was until imported wahabbi terrorists from you know where started to split the country up, turning parts of it into a Islamic State caliphate. Today, Syria is being plundered by the same countries that helped the terrorists sell the stolen oil. We all know which country smuggled truckloads worth of oil then, and which country does the same now. Comparing Turkey's and Syria's cultures is like comparing an ugly frog to a beautiful marmaid.
- justicezyx 5y ago
  That country is Russian, right? Or Saudi Arabia? I am not very familiar with Syria situation. Purely a honest question.
  - pphysch 5y ago
    Northeastern Syria (major agriculture/oil region) has been actively occupied by USA for the better part of a decade. Turkey occupies Northwestern Syria (Idlib) along with US-backed HTS. Arguably the only reason Syria didn't collapse like Libya/Iraq is because Russia was there to balance against US interests.
  - lucian1900 5y ago
    Saudi Arabia as the direct source of Wahhabis, with the US funding and arming them. Russia has been supporting the secular Syrian government.
    - AnimalMuppet 5y ago
      I fail to see how the US is funding the Saudis. Arming, maybe. Funding? Not so much.
      - objektif 5y ago
        Not necessarily Saudis but the so called "rebels". Turkey openly aided ISIS and other violent rebels in the region. I can tell you Turkey did not do this alone as a Nato member.
csomar 5y ago
Erdoğan is a Ottoman and not an Islamic leader. He is using Islam to reach his goals but he is not married to it. He'll move away from Islam as soon as it no longer serves his purposes.
- justicezyx 5y ago
  Even a fictional character, Paul Atriades, knows that religious zeal is a beast that cannot be contained. I am more inclined to believe that as a skilled politician erdogan should be well versed in history and politics to see that danger. And I believe that he indeed is a believer of Islamic religion.
- midasuni 5y ago
  But will the country. Like other populists found out, once you unleash the beast you have a job on taming it again
  - csomar 5y ago
    Islam is flexible. He'll bullshit his way out of it. Seen it first hand. Also most of his target countries for influence are already Muslim Sunni. So that should work out.
- hereforphone 5y ago
  What is an "Ottoman leader"?
  - throwaway123x2 5y ago
    Essentially a Turk first and then a Muslim. Ottoman because it allows him to project hegemony because the Ottomans were the last Islamic "Caliphs".
  - csomar 5y ago
    Basically he still believes in the Ottoman empire and that his country should turn into a super-power that controls the Mediterranean. Many Turks share this idea, too.
azth 5y ago
> according to interpretation of Islamic principles, I assume It's literally in the Quran: * https://quran.com/2/275 https://quran.com/2/275 * https://quran.com/3/130 https://quran.com/3/130 And the Hadiths: * https://sunnah.com/riyadussalihin:1615 https://sunnah.com/riyadussalihin:1615 * https://sunnah.com/bulugh/7/62 https://sunnah.com/bulugh/7/62 This isn't a matter of interpretation.
- tim333 5y ago
  Ah - I hadn't realised God himself took a position on interest rate policy.

midasuni 5y ago

Paradox of tolerance.

beebeepka 5y ago

Heh. I wasn't aware religious beliefs include monetary policies. I just hope they don't start another war out of desperation.

hereforphone 5y ago
One big concern is that Erdoğan will likely hold on to power however he can. He's already circumvented the constitution (and changed electoral law). I believe he will fight to maintain his reign if necessary. He has about 50% of the country behind him, and as far as I can tell the allegiance is based on religious principles, which makes it a strong allegiance indeed.
- 1cvmask 5y ago
  Donald Trump only won 46.1% of the vote in 2016 and that was enough. In fact no one got over 50%. Hillary Clinton had a plurality with 48.2% https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_United_States_presidential_election https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_United_States_presidentia... In England David Cameron had a parliamentary majority with only 38% of the vote.
  - adventured 5y ago
    That's actual voters of course, a subset of how many people support a candidate or President in the US. The parent has no idea how many people support Erdogan (the claimed 50%), nobody does. It's just a guess in the wind (if it's 42% that's a massive difference from 54%, as to whether Erdogan remains standing). Like trying to guess how many Russians really support Putin's dictatorship. Getting honest answers on such questions is quite difficult, as is accurately polling in nations the size and complexity of eg the US, Russia or Turkey.
  - eynsham 5y ago
    In England in 2015, Cameron had 40.9% apparently (https://www.statista.com/statistics/717022/general-elections-voter-turnout-by-party-england/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/717022/general-elections...). The point still stands—he had far more than 40.9% of English seats! On the other hand, the Turkish electoral system can fail even more bizarrely than a simple single-member constituency FPTP system—in 2002, only the CHP and AKP cleared the 10% threshold, so the AKP had ⅔ of the votes. However, at the moment, the president is directly elected, so anything <50% wouldn’t suffice. (How those votes are obtained, of course, is another matter.)
thatguy0900 5y ago
Many religions have laws about interest and usury. Catholics were unable to lend with interest between each other for a very long time. I suppose it's not a stretch to say if a person can't charge interest the government shouldn't be doing it either.
- beebeepka 5y ago
  Your last sentence makes sense

DSingularity 5y ago

Throats were slit? I never read that. If you believe in democracy you would celebrate the failure of a coup. Even if you hate the surviving leader, you ought to prefer defeating him within the frameworks of democracy. You seem to really dislike Muslim culture. If the people of Turkey want their culture to closer to that of Syria instead of Germany, what’s the problem?

nickff 5y ago
>"If you believe in democracy you would celebrate the failure of a coup. Even if you hate the surviving leader, you ought to prefer defeating him within the frameworks of democracy." You are supposing that the once freely-elected leader will permit a reversion to 'free' democracy. In fact, rigged elections form the basis of stable autocracies. Outright juntas and dictatorships are actually more likely to transition to 'free' democracies.[1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Logic_of_Political_Survival https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Logic_of_Political_Surviva...
grenoire 5y ago
The problem is that people suffer the transition's consequences. The current state of affairs has driven a rather large part of the country's population, who share Western ideals and want to pursue them for their nation, prefer a coup over whatever this ongoing messy loss of wealth and human capital is (certainly not 'democracy,' though). That should be telling, but it's hard to have Westerners empathise, I guess?
wheelerof4te 5y ago
Westerners think that their culture is the greatest of all time, how could you not accept it? They are even exporting it together with their bombs and missiles in case you don't comply /s But seriously, if their "culture" consists of gender theories, Holywood movies, superhero novels and the like, they can keep their culture.
- lostlogin 5y ago
  You’ve picked a subset of a subset of a subset. There is a little more to it than that, and a similar style summary of your preferred culture would be pretty dark.

forvelin 5y ago

It has nothing to do with religious beliefs, its all about gathering capital on his side. He is just abusing peoples' religious beliefs. Everybody knows the new savings scheme he introduced is essentially increasing interest rates. Contrary to popular belief, I do not think that Erdogan will continue to mold Turkey's future. So far Turkey always had 40-50% opposition which could not unit, but now they are all united and next time it is certainly going to tip the scale in the right way. He will do everything to delay the elections or call them at the right time -like now ?- but his plans don't always work out -not far, look to recent Istanbul elections he lost.

1cvmask 5y ago
He lost all three of the biggest cities of Istanbul, Ankara and Izmir. Yet his coalition actually increased their total votes in the municipal elections by getting more votes in other cities.
costac 5y ago
> Everybody knows the new savings scheme he introduced is essentially increasing interest rates. This is not true. Raising interest rates would mean raising the cost of funding for the banking system. Under the new saving scheme, since the Treasury pays depositors the extra yield, the cost for banks remains unchanged. As does the marginal cost of borrowing from the central bank. The new saving scheme is a free dollar call sold by the country's Treasury to depositors. And it will pay it out by printing money.
- howmayiannoyyou 5y ago
  > printing money Something it cannot do without increasing its own borrowing costs, and reducing the import purchasing power of its currency. This has been tried and doesn't work: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Wednesday https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Wednesday
  - selectodude 5y ago
    Anybody with even a cursory knowledge of macroeconomics knows it won’t work. Erdogan just doesn’t happen to be one of those people. It’s tragic.

smnrchrds 5y ago

> Islam was acceptable (as Turkey was attempting to be a "free" republic), but not compulsory. Until Erdogan overturned it, there was a ban on women wearing hijab (the head covering , that the vast majority of Muslims consider a basic tenet of their religion) in universities in Turkey. I leave the judgment to you, but personally I wouldn't consider asking millions of people to choose between adhering to their religion and getting a higher education to be treating their religion as "acceptable, just not compulsary". https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-11880622 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-11880622

Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
- Cyph0n 5y ago
  And the solution to that imaginary problem is.. to ban all women from wearing hijab? Excellent logic.
  - istinetz 5y ago
    Well, yes. What solution do you propose? Mass propaganda? Perhaps possible in 2021, but it wouldn't have been as effective in the 1930s.
    - Cyph0n 5y ago
      Why did you use the word “propaganda”? Why not “education”? Regardless of the time period, I would simply propose focusing on educating current and future generations that men and women have equal rights. If you dig into history a bit, you’ll find that state-sponsored persecution - ethnic, religious, or otherwise - is almost always guaranteed to backfire in the long run.
      - worik 5y ago
        But what is the problem? It may have a religious origin but a headscarf is a fashion accessory. Like trousers or shirt buttons. We could ban them too, just for fun! Up with skirts! Down with trousers! See? What fun!

wheelerof4te 5y ago

Syria was a prosperous and deeply secular country, with many cultural sites dating back to the ancient world. At least it was until imported wahabbi terrorists from you know where started to split the country up, turning parts of it into a Islamic State caliphate. Today, Syria is being plundered by the same countries that helped the terrorists sell the stolen oil. We all know which country smuggled truckloads worth of oil then, and which country does the same now. Comparing Turkey's and Syria's cultures is like comparing an ugly frog to a beautiful marmaid.

justicezyx 5y ago
That country is Russian, right? Or Saudi Arabia? I am not very familiar with Syria situation. Purely a honest question.
- pphysch 5y ago
  Northeastern Syria (major agriculture/oil region) has been actively occupied by USA for the better part of a decade. Turkey occupies Northwestern Syria (Idlib) along with US-backed HTS. Arguably the only reason Syria didn't collapse like Libya/Iraq is because Russia was there to balance against US interests.
- lucian1900 5y ago
  Saudi Arabia as the direct source of Wahhabis, with the US funding and arming them. Russia has been supporting the secular Syrian government.
  - AnimalMuppet 5y ago
    I fail to see how the US is funding the Saudis. Arming, maybe. Funding? Not so much.
    - objektif 5y ago
      Not necessarily Saudis but the so called "rebels". Turkey openly aided ISIS and other violent rebels in the region. I can tell you Turkey did not do this alone as a Nato member.

csomar 5y ago

Erdoğan is a Ottoman and not an Islamic leader. He is using Islam to reach his goals but he is not married to it. He'll move away from Islam as soon as it no longer serves his purposes.

justicezyx 5y ago
Even a fictional character, Paul Atriades, knows that religious zeal is a beast that cannot be contained. I am more inclined to believe that as a skilled politician erdogan should be well versed in history and politics to see that danger. And I believe that he indeed is a believer of Islamic religion.
midasuni 5y ago
But will the country. Like other populists found out, once you unleash the beast you have a job on taming it again
- csomar 5y ago
  Islam is flexible. He'll bullshit his way out of it. Seen it first hand. Also most of his target countries for influence are already Muslim Sunni. So that should work out.
hereforphone 5y ago
What is an "Ottoman leader"?
- throwaway123x2 5y ago
  Essentially a Turk first and then a Muslim. Ottoman because it allows him to project hegemony because the Ottomans were the last Islamic "Caliphs".
- csomar 5y ago
  Basically he still believes in the Ottoman empire and that his country should turn into a super-power that controls the Mediterranean. Many Turks share this idea, too.

azth 5y ago

> according to interpretation of Islamic principles, I assume It's literally in the Quran: * https://quran.com/2/275 https://quran.com/2/275 * https://quran.com/3/130 https://quran.com/3/130 And the Hadiths: * https://sunnah.com/riyadussalihin:1615 https://sunnah.com/riyadussalihin:1615 * https://sunnah.com/bulugh/7/62 https://sunnah.com/bulugh/7/62 This isn't a matter of interpretation.

tim333 5y ago
Ah - I hadn't realised God himself took a position on interest rate policy.