5 ms·

Good policy. Every organization should find a way to expose their employees to problems and opportunities on their front line.

999900000999 5y ago
If I get a job as an engineer at Jack in the Box , I'm walking out if they want me to make milk shakes.
- almost_usual 5y ago
  I would work at Jack in the Box if they paid me 700k+ TC and I only had to make milkshakes for a year. Could always save the mental energy to program whatever I want in my free time.
  - mbfg 5y ago
    i would, got a link?
  - kgwxd 5y ago
    But the contract you signed says anything you do in your spare time belongs to the company.
    - almost_usual 5y ago
      Not in my imaginary contract.
    - selimthegrim 5y ago
      Shh, the contract doesn't apply when the milkshake machine is "down", don't let him find out!
  - chaorace 5y ago
    It's rather impressive that you have the mental fortitude to get meaningful stuff done in your spare time after working in a fast-food kitchen all day. More than I suspect most have, myself included. Even as a young adult, the heavy labor and stress I took on from working those types of jobs would leave me so exhausted that I could barely even drive home, let alone belt out code. I'm not saying it's impossible -- throw enough money out there and you'll find the people... but that hardly makes it praise-worthy or justifiable from a compatibility perspective.
- reidjs 5y ago
  What if you’re in charge of embedded programming for the milkshake machine? wouldn’t you want to learn about how the system you work on directly impacts its users? Also, who doesn’t want to make milkshakes for a day or two? That sounds way more fun that staring at a computer for hours on end. You can say that would sweeten up the contract for me.
  - 999900000999 5y ago
    What about when some disgruntled customer thinks you put the wrong milk in his milkshake and start screaming at you? Having to work a shitty job when you're a teenager is a right of passage, I'm not doing it in my thirties.
    - danaris 5y ago
      Screw that. No one, whatever their age, should have to work a job where they're treated like garbage.
    - reidjs 5y ago
      If that were to happen, you’ve probably got the financial security and confidence to tell that customer to go F themselves and receive applause and accolades from the rest of the team (and other customers). No one should act like that to anymore, especially towards people working a demanding job.
      - 999900000999 5y ago
        Did you ever work retail? Everyone from managers to co-workers to customers can be extremely mean . M That's one of my main reasons for getting out of those fields, I don't like customer service. I don't have patience for you getting upset with me because your wife's not getting you enough attention or whatever's going on at home. I'm an extremely chill person, but if anyone's confrontational or angry I'll just avoid that situation. I remember I was at a grocery store or something and an elderly man started cursing at the employees because he couldn't figure out the automated checkout. That's not for me. I don't care that the technology is confusing and hard, I'm not tolerating someone cursing at me.
- paulcole 5y ago
  If I get a job as a milkshake maker at Jack in the Box, I’m walking out if they make me work with the engineers.
is_true 5y ago
Only people that understand the importance of processes have for an organization will understand this. Most people think they are too good to be doing that.
raiyu 5y ago
It is critical to expose workers to the problems that their customers experience, but if this is the only way to do it, then you have multiple failures in how your organization is structured. Really this is the job of the product manager, and if the product manager isn't actively using your product, or talking with your customers and end users, then they are failing at their job. But the number of product managers that take this part of the job seriously is abysmally low. Which is why companies have to instate other patterns to try and get this work done.
- solidsnack9000 5y ago
  Yeah, there may be a middle way, here. Some employees should have this kind of crossover experience; but it's probably not a requirement that all of them do.
- Melting_Harps 5y ago
  > It is critical to expose workers to the problems that their customers experience, but if this is the only way to do it, then you have multiple failures in how your organization is structured. Maybe, but direct feedback is incredibly insightful and worth it's weight in gold when time to market and product market fit are critical to the operation's survival: startup v Corp World. > But the number of product managers that take this part of the job seriously is abysmally... It really is, stepping into the Corp World starting from a bootstrapping co-founder position) was a total culture shock! Moreover, the lack of clarity and vision is toxic to a Team's overall productivity, coupled with the fact that the they are likely the one with the most TC it's hard to rationalize the drudgery that it becomes--it's less optimization of stand out core functionality, and more adding needless features and bug testing busy work to suit a PM's 'roadmap to success' they think will lead to the next rung on the corporate ladder. I can't think of a worst way top operate, actually.
- Closi 5y ago
  > Really this is the job of the product manager, and if the product manager isn't actively using your product, or talking with your customers and end users, then they are failing at their job. Eh, I've been a product manager and have taken my engineers to do the job, and it really changes how you talk about issues. I used to be PO for a team which developed warehousing software (a WMS) and would take engineers from my team to go picking for the day (if they were willing). Dev teams will push back on some tickets, and say for instance that latency is fine (and that it's not possible to fix and unavoidable!). Besides, they know it's not user-perceptible at the current rates, and they know the exact latency as we have telemetry built in. If they do try to reduce latency, it's a half-assed effort with eye-rolling. Then when they actually go and experience the job for a day they come back and are motivated and engaged to reduce latency because they have experienced it themselves, talked to users, and have watched other people working and can see the slight pause before the next pick. Suddenly maybe we should be pre-loading information before the next pick so that we don't need to wait for a web-service response? And as an added benefit - the engineers would come back actually understanding the job and problem fully in a non-academic and practical way (people don't really 'get' how something works in practice until they have done it themselves, regardless of how simple it sounds on paper). And my personal experience was that a team of engineers that actually understand the problem are more effective and motivated to solve it (even if they didn't enjoy doing manual labour for a day). I don't really buy the "only the PO needs to understand what the users want" - personally I see it as the PO's role to deeply understand what the users want and translate that into features / user stories, however everyone on the team needs to understand the job.

999900000999 5y ago

If I get a job as an engineer at Jack in the Box , I'm walking out if they want me to make milk shakes.

almost_usual 5y ago
I would work at Jack in the Box if they paid me 700k+ TC and I only had to make milkshakes for a year. Could always save the mental energy to program whatever I want in my free time.
- mbfg 5y ago
  i would, got a link?
- kgwxd 5y ago
  But the contract you signed says anything you do in your spare time belongs to the company.
  - almost_usual 5y ago
    Not in my imaginary contract.
  - selimthegrim 5y ago
    Shh, the contract doesn't apply when the milkshake machine is "down", don't let him find out!
- chaorace 5y ago
  It's rather impressive that you have the mental fortitude to get meaningful stuff done in your spare time after working in a fast-food kitchen all day. More than I suspect most have, myself included. Even as a young adult, the heavy labor and stress I took on from working those types of jobs would leave me so exhausted that I could barely even drive home, let alone belt out code. I'm not saying it's impossible -- throw enough money out there and you'll find the people... but that hardly makes it praise-worthy or justifiable from a compatibility perspective.
reidjs 5y ago
What if you’re in charge of embedded programming for the milkshake machine? wouldn’t you want to learn about how the system you work on directly impacts its users? Also, who doesn’t want to make milkshakes for a day or two? That sounds way more fun that staring at a computer for hours on end. You can say that would sweeten up the contract for me.
- 999900000999 5y ago
  What about when some disgruntled customer thinks you put the wrong milk in his milkshake and start screaming at you? Having to work a shitty job when you're a teenager is a right of passage, I'm not doing it in my thirties.
  - danaris 5y ago
    Screw that. No one, whatever their age, should have to work a job where they're treated like garbage.
  - reidjs 5y ago
    If that were to happen, you’ve probably got the financial security and confidence to tell that customer to go F themselves and receive applause and accolades from the rest of the team (and other customers). No one should act like that to anymore, especially towards people working a demanding job.
    - 999900000999 5y ago
      Did you ever work retail? Everyone from managers to co-workers to customers can be extremely mean . M That's one of my main reasons for getting out of those fields, I don't like customer service. I don't have patience for you getting upset with me because your wife's not getting you enough attention or whatever's going on at home. I'm an extremely chill person, but if anyone's confrontational or angry I'll just avoid that situation. I remember I was at a grocery store or something and an elderly man started cursing at the employees because he couldn't figure out the automated checkout. That's not for me. I don't care that the technology is confusing and hard, I'm not tolerating someone cursing at me.
paulcole 5y ago
If I get a job as a milkshake maker at Jack in the Box, I’m walking out if they make me work with the engineers.

is_true 5y ago

Only people that understand the importance of processes have for an organization will understand this. Most people think they are too good to be doing that.

raiyu 5y ago

It is critical to expose workers to the problems that their customers experience, but if this is the only way to do it, then you have multiple failures in how your organization is structured. Really this is the job of the product manager, and if the product manager isn't actively using your product, or talking with your customers and end users, then they are failing at their job. But the number of product managers that take this part of the job seriously is abysmally low. Which is why companies have to instate other patterns to try and get this work done.

solidsnack9000 5y ago
Yeah, there may be a middle way, here. Some employees should have this kind of crossover experience; but it's probably not a requirement that all of them do.
Melting_Harps 5y ago
> It is critical to expose workers to the problems that their customers experience, but if this is the only way to do it, then you have multiple failures in how your organization is structured. Maybe, but direct feedback is incredibly insightful and worth it's weight in gold when time to market and product market fit are critical to the operation's survival: startup v Corp World. > But the number of product managers that take this part of the job seriously is abysmally... It really is, stepping into the Corp World starting from a bootstrapping co-founder position) was a total culture shock! Moreover, the lack of clarity and vision is toxic to a Team's overall productivity, coupled with the fact that the they are likely the one with the most TC it's hard to rationalize the drudgery that it becomes--it's less optimization of stand out core functionality, and more adding needless features and bug testing busy work to suit a PM's 'roadmap to success' they think will lead to the next rung on the corporate ladder. I can't think of a worst way top operate, actually.
Closi 5y ago
> Really this is the job of the product manager, and if the product manager isn't actively using your product, or talking with your customers and end users, then they are failing at their job. Eh, I've been a product manager and have taken my engineers to do the job, and it really changes how you talk about issues. I used to be PO for a team which developed warehousing software (a WMS) and would take engineers from my team to go picking for the day (if they were willing). Dev teams will push back on some tickets, and say for instance that latency is fine (and that it's not possible to fix and unavoidable!). Besides, they know it's not user-perceptible at the current rates, and they know the exact latency as we have telemetry built in. If they do try to reduce latency, it's a half-assed effort with eye-rolling. Then when they actually go and experience the job for a day they come back and are motivated and engaged to reduce latency because they have experienced it themselves, talked to users, and have watched other people working and can see the slight pause before the next pick. Suddenly maybe we should be pre-loading information before the next pick so that we don't need to wait for a web-service response? And as an added benefit - the engineers would come back actually understanding the job and problem fully in a non-academic and practical way (people don't really 'get' how something works in practice until they have done it themselves, regardless of how simple it sounds on paper). And my personal experience was that a team of engineers that actually understand the problem are more effective and motivated to solve it (even if they didn't enjoy doing manual labour for a day). I don't really buy the "only the PO needs to understand what the users want" - personally I see it as the PO's role to deeply understand what the users want and translate that into features / user stories, however everyone on the team needs to understand the job.