5 ms·

> At the cost of thermals and power usage Isn’t this the whole point? Sure if you give Intel a bigger thermal envelope it will do better than the M1 but that r

> At the cost of thermals and power usage Isn’t this the whole point? Sure if you give Intel a bigger thermal envelope it will do better than the M1 but that really is Apples to oranges.

Redoubts 5y ago
Depends if you feel the thermal constraints are inherent to the form factor, or simply sloppy engineering.
i_am_proteus 5y ago
Horse is a lot faster than a motorcycle if all you've got for fuel is oats, hay, and water. Adding in some gasoline would be apples-to-oranges.
- gonehome 5y ago
  More like a Tesla vs a gas guzzling rocket car. Rocket car may be technically faster under optimal conditions - but everything else about it sucks.
  - i_am_proteus 5y ago
    It's not clear to this reader which of Intel or Apple you mean for each of your examples. "Everything else about it sucks" certainly seems like it doesn't apply to either.
    - gonehome 5y ago
      I’d guess it’s obvious to others (and probably you) given one in the example is a lot more efficient, but for clarity the M1 Max was the Tesla.
      - klelatti 5y ago
        Your analogy made perfect sense to me - I’m still trying to understand the whole horses and motorcycles thing!
        i_am_proteus 5y ago
        Something that does not perform well when operated in an environment it is ill-suited to: trying to run a motorcycle on oats. Or an Intel processor on a laptop that sacrificed adequate cooling for aesthetics. Or a Tesla in a place without many electric charging stations. None of these condemn the device, but do indicate the specific use case wasn't well thought out.
sys_64738 5y ago
It’s down to brute force raw power and performance per watt nowadays. Apple mostly wins the latter but the former is inevitably going to kill demand for those climate unfriendly servers due to cooling and powering problems. We await the high end Mac systems with much interest.
- izacus 5y ago
  Since those high-end Mac systems won't be able to run in datacenters, what's the point there? You're pretty much at the mercy of whatever Intel, AMD and other ARM manufacturers release.
  - api 5y ago
    Apple should license the M1 core architecture to someone to make server chips with it. They'd make some extra money and lose nothing... in fact they might gain since it would build market share around the architecture.
    - sgt101 5y ago
      So obvious, and yet apple is worth $3tr...
    - klelatti 5y ago
      If the massive bandwidth shared CPU / GPU memory approach is optimum on the desktop for many workloads then one would think that there would be a sizeable market for that in the cloud - after all many desktop workloads (video editing) for example are moving to the cloud. Can’t see it being Apple but feels like an opportunity for someone.
    - Symmetry 5y ago
      Because Apple wasn't interested in doing that some engineers left to found their own company doing Apple style cores for serves. It was called Nuvia. It was eventually bought by Qualcomm who decided to try to use those cores in Mobile despite the actual designs not being suited for that. I feel like I shouldn't just spill Charlie's scoop on exactly why[1] but it doesn't look good. [1]https://semiaccurate.com/2021/12/01/how-is-the-qualcomm-nuvia-acquisition-going/ https://semiaccurate.com/2021/12/01/how-is-the-qualcomm-nuvi...
zamalek 5y ago
If your machine is perpetually sitting on your desk then that doesn't really matter. For personal use, power and thermals are only a serious concern away from your desk. My 3950x runs circles around the M1 work has me use. I use both for the same task. Apples to apples.
- 2muchcoffeeman 5y ago
  But it’s one of those things where you might change your behaviour or priorities if something becomes possible. In this case, having all day battery life on a laptop while also having maximum performance. Same way we started using laptops for all our work. Desktops are always more powerful in absolute terms and cheaper to boot. But most people don’t even buy desktops for home use.
  - zamalek 5y ago
    > priorities if something becomes possible. A CPU isn't the only reason there is to use a desktop/fixed setup. While Apple has truly fantastic monitors, there's also the keyboard to consider.

> At the cost of thermals and power usage Isn’t this the whole point? Sure if you give Intel a bigger thermal envelope it will do better than the M1 but that really is Apples to oranges.

Redoubts 5y ago

Depends if you feel the thermal constraints are inherent to the form factor, or simply sloppy engineering.

i_am_proteus 5y ago

Horse is a lot faster than a motorcycle if all you've got for fuel is oats, hay, and water. Adding in some gasoline would be apples-to-oranges.

gonehome 5y ago
More like a Tesla vs a gas guzzling rocket car. Rocket car may be technically faster under optimal conditions - but everything else about it sucks.
- i_am_proteus 5y ago
  It's not clear to this reader which of Intel or Apple you mean for each of your examples. "Everything else about it sucks" certainly seems like it doesn't apply to either.
  - gonehome 5y ago
    I’d guess it’s obvious to others (and probably you) given one in the example is a lot more efficient, but for clarity the M1 Max was the Tesla.
    - klelatti 5y ago
      Your analogy made perfect sense to me - I’m still trying to understand the whole horses and motorcycles thing!
      - i_am_proteus 5y ago
        Something that does not perform well when operated in an environment it is ill-suited to: trying to run a motorcycle on oats. Or an Intel processor on a laptop that sacrificed adequate cooling for aesthetics. Or a Tesla in a place without many electric charging stations. None of these condemn the device, but do indicate the specific use case wasn't well thought out.

sys_64738 5y ago

It’s down to brute force raw power and performance per watt nowadays. Apple mostly wins the latter but the former is inevitably going to kill demand for those climate unfriendly servers due to cooling and powering problems. We await the high end Mac systems with much interest.

izacus 5y ago
Since those high-end Mac systems won't be able to run in datacenters, what's the point there? You're pretty much at the mercy of whatever Intel, AMD and other ARM manufacturers release.
- api 5y ago
  Apple should license the M1 core architecture to someone to make server chips with it. They'd make some extra money and lose nothing... in fact they might gain since it would build market share around the architecture.
  - sgt101 5y ago
    So obvious, and yet apple is worth $3tr...
  - klelatti 5y ago
    If the massive bandwidth shared CPU / GPU memory approach is optimum on the desktop for many workloads then one would think that there would be a sizeable market for that in the cloud - after all many desktop workloads (video editing) for example are moving to the cloud. Can’t see it being Apple but feels like an opportunity for someone.
  - Symmetry 5y ago
    Because Apple wasn't interested in doing that some engineers left to found their own company doing Apple style cores for serves. It was called Nuvia. It was eventually bought by Qualcomm who decided to try to use those cores in Mobile despite the actual designs not being suited for that. I feel like I shouldn't just spill Charlie's scoop on exactly why[1] but it doesn't look good. [1]https://semiaccurate.com/2021/12/01/how-is-the-qualcomm-nuvia-acquisition-going/ https://semiaccurate.com/2021/12/01/how-is-the-qualcomm-nuvi...

zamalek 5y ago

If your machine is perpetually sitting on your desk then that doesn't really matter. For personal use, power and thermals are only a serious concern away from your desk. My 3950x runs circles around the M1 work has me use. I use both for the same task. Apples to apples.

2muchcoffeeman 5y ago
But it’s one of those things where you might change your behaviour or priorities if something becomes possible. In this case, having all day battery life on a laptop while also having maximum performance. Same way we started using laptops for all our work. Desktops are always more powerful in absolute terms and cheaper to boot. But most people don’t even buy desktops for home use.
- zamalek 5y ago
  > priorities if something becomes possible. A CPU isn't the only reason there is to use a desktop/fixed setup. While Apple has truly fantastic monitors, there's also the keyboard to consider.