8 ms·

Show HN: Retire 35

34 points by paradite 5y ago

galfarragem 5y ago
Is this sarcastic? Sanitizing individualism in the Christmas Eve is not for the faint of heart. Retirement by 35 means others must retire later than they should, unless you pretend to be self-sufficient.
- paradite 5y ago
  I'm sorry if I had posted this at a time that bothered you. Regarding your concern, I actually believe that early retirement will increase the overall productivity of the society (because people can work things that they find passion and purpose in). So it wouldn't be at the expense of others (sorry if I understand your point incorrectly). I have addressed about this issue briefly in the "Productivity and fulfillment" section on the website. However, it is clearly lacking in depth. I will try to add more explanations on why I think that way.
- smorgusofborg 5y ago
  > Retirement by 35 means others must retire later than they should, unless you pretend to be self-sufficient. The advice includes lowering your expenses by spending less. You are providing less total work and you are taking the value of that work back at a slower rate. So there's no reason anyone else has to work more or less. We simply don't need the lifestyle we are buying during our working years. Personally, I think it is time to drop the standard to a 30 hour work week. It's funny that there is usually no winning with an argument over change in work habits because either you hurt people by making them work or you hurt people by taking away their work. ( Somehow the status quo is accidentally perfect, unless of course you examine any part of it.)
- peakaboo 5y ago
  I like individualism. The majority are easily told what to think by authority figures in the media, and people are constantly fooled into making stupid decisions and not seeing the bigger picture of events unfolding. Corporations will use people until they are no longer useful, and then kick them out. You need to put number 1 first.
- Graffur 5y ago
  > Sanitizing individualism in the Christmas Eve is not for the faint of heart. What on earth is this sentence supposed to mean?
  - cblconfederate 5y ago
    That jesus wants you to work to pay other people's pensions. Not sure if he ever articulated in this manner though
- pureblood 5y ago
- jxidjhdhdhdhfhf 5y ago
  Non sequitur. One person retiring early makes no difference in when others retire.
Flankk 5y ago
Yes, I can't wait to retire so I can finally master the dark art of origami. /s Since I've went in to business, I've been having so much fun I hope that I never have to retire. Normies gotta dream about something though, I guess.
- pureblood 5y ago
- paradite 5y ago
  Glad to hear that you are enjoying what are already doing. That's a great state to be in. And if you were to ever consider retirement plans, you would fit into one of scenarios that I described on the website: > If you are already working on your passion or interest, that's even better. You can continue doing what you are doing, just with an bonus peace of mind that you have the freedom to change if things don't go the way you liked.
- yunohn 5y ago
  > Normies gotta dream about something though, I guess. Huh? So as a privileged business owner, you’re calling 9-5 workers as “normies” for desiring more fulfillment?
  - Flankk 5y ago
    - dang 5y ago
      You've unfortunately been breaking the site guidelines repeatedly. Did you not see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29601700 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29601700, just a few days ago? We ban accounts that post like this. I don't have the impression that you're doing it deliberately, because you've also posted good things, but the problem isn't just this sort of post—it's what it evokes from other users. It basically leads to the degeneration of the forum, which is the outcome we're trying to avoid here, or at least stave off. I don't want to ban you, so if you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules, that would be good.
brailsafe 5y ago
I just can't imagine why someone would waste such a high proportion of their youth, only to realize they're probably exclusively driven by arbitrary work in the first place. Wew lads, I'm retired at 35, guess I'll find a hobby for the first time. Oh wait tho, I'm fat and depressed from selling all of my life so far, and have to spend the next 5 - 10 years undoing that while everyone else I meet has developed their life with some kind of balance. All those hobbies I could have done while I had energy, health, and friends, are kind of out the window, and the only people in my dating pool are divorcees with kids!
- paradite 5y ago
  Thanks for the feedback. I am more optimistic on the hypothetical case construction. Regarding depression, I believe that working towards a goal, such as retiring early, would actually help combat depression because it gives purpose to work otherwise meaningless or monotonous. Also, I don't think early retirement planning is correlated to depression, i.e. they are orthogonal. Regarding fat, the same argument, planning to retire early is not going to cause you to become fat. It is more of a lifestyle choice unrelated to when you want to retire. Curious on why you would think they are linked to early retirement. Regarding hobby, I have specifically talked about this in the website. If you already have a hobby, you shouldn't give it up just to retire early. However, if your current work is interfering your capacity on practicing your hobby, then maybe early retirement offers a "faster track" to be able to go back to your hobby than the traditional retirement route.
  - brailsafe 5y ago
    I wasn't really intending to provide feedback to you on your list, I was more just a little dismayed with the premise of working backwards from the goal of retiring that early and living your easiest years in what I believe to be a waste to get there, as most people probably would need to. There's nothing wrong with the concept of retiring early, if that doesn't cost too much in terms of how you spent your time to get there. I've had a very volatile career, but I'm actually quite thankful that I've been forced to work at least 2 or 3 years less then your average person, even though I have no money to show for it. In retrospect, while it would be nice to have that money, I have memories of aimlessly travelling, hanging out with friends for hours a day in summer, and if I were to have waited till my late 30s, I'd have worked those memories away. I'm also im great shape and have a good relationship with staying in great shape, such that work will always be secondary. I also have some good friends that I've spent a lot of time with already. I know that won't always be possible, but I've established them and am decent at establishing new ones. These are things that careerist people end up losing out on entirely, a lot of the time. By contrast, if I were to not only have worked regular hours for those missing years, but probably worked extra by even oke more hour every day, a bit on weekends, and saved a higher proportion than I already was, all I'd have to show for it is money, and that's pretty hollow. Thinking about retirement doesn't make you fat, lack of spending $ and time on physical hobbies does. Spending most of your time in a chair and eating cheap/quick food does too, none of this is a stretch to reach depression.
mxschumacher 5y ago
returns on investments such as stocks, bonds and real estate have been incredibly high over the past decade - the ultra low interest rate environment that central banks around the world have created is a big contributor to this performance. It would be deeply naive to think that starting to invest today, at historically high valuations will yield the same annual returns in the next decade. Stocks are very expensive, bonds are super-crazy expensive (given that you have a contractual guarantee that upside is impossible and that real yields are negative). Extrapolating from the recent past is a dangerous game. Reversion to the mean is a law of the universe and we cannot keep going like this. If you quit your job expecting to be able to live off of your portfolio, you should have enough to still be comfortable after a 50%+ loss. Inflation is flaring up, historically this meant raised interest rates, which in turn translates to lower asset prices.
- paradite 5y ago
  I completely agree that investments have inherent risks, which is why investors usually transition into lower risk portfolio nearing retirement age. And I believe you already know that. The point of Retire 35 is therefore, not doing precise financial modelling. I am not qualified for that. Instead, what I propose is a change of mindset and how we view retirement. It should be a more of a "mid point" in life, rather than the "last lap", if that makes sense.
  - mxschumacher 5y ago
    the traditional "lower risk" portfolio as a function of age is to decrease allocation from stocks in favor of bonds. As previously mentioned, extremely high prices for bonds coupled with substantial inflation means that bonds are no longer less risky. What's risky isn't so much a question of the asset class, but more about the price paid. Trillions of dollars are reaching for yield and it is not clear what a low risk asset might be in late 2021.
    - paradite 5y ago
      I see where you are coming from. I didn't know about the bond situation. Is that US specific? The idea is to go for whatever that is currently accepted as low risk. For example, if bonds are considered risky, maybe high interest saving accounts are the next best option. And you can adjust your retirement goals accordingly.
kwere 5y ago
how much would life expectancy increase in the next 50 years? i doubt someone with less than 4-5 millions networth can even dream about retirement figures "young adults" with 1-2 millions saved
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- mikeodds 5y ago
  tell me you live in north america without telling me you live in north america
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
999900000999 5y ago
I'm thinking some wiz kid from a cheaper country could do this. Bob is from Romania, he comes to America for college and gets a new grad offer at Twitter. After 10 years he has a million in vested stock options, he sells em all to retire to the countryside of his youth. I guess I could do the same, but I can't imagine it being easy to learn Romanian. All the English speaking countries are fairly expensive to live in.
- paradite 5y ago
  Interesting idea. What about moving to South East Asia? Low cost of living and plenty of English speakers settle here for retirement.
  - 999900000999 5y ago
    I'm actually learning Chinese right now. If I get one of these magical FAANG offers, I might be able to retire by 40. I imagine if I do try and retire in a foreign country it would be much more difficult as I'd have to get used to the culture. The again with globalization and all that I guess I could just hang out in Starbucks no matter where I'm at
  - seanmcdirmid 5y ago
    Medicare doesn’t transfer, so you have to fund your own healthcare passed 62-65, when you need the most of it. Guam is an option for Americans where Medicare will still work. Otherwise if healthcare costs aren’t an issue, I might retire to a tourist town in Yunnan.
Invictus0 5y ago
Personally I like to use this calculator: https://engaging-data.com/fire-calculator/ https://engaging-data.com/fire-calculator/
- paradite 5y ago
  That looks very similar to the Retire 35 app in terms of functionality. You got me thinking. Maybe I would release a web version instead.
pleb_nz 5y ago
I have a saying. Retiring is dying. Yeah I know it has some flaws, but personally I don't intend to retire but to continue working. Yeah the work will change, and frequency band duration, but I plan to keep active.
- rufus_foreman 5y ago
  >> personally I don't intend to retire but to continue working The majority of people retire when they are forced to, not when they plan to. Everyone has a plan until life punches them in the mouth. The question is what does your life look like after that?
  - pleb_nz 5y ago
    Majority based on what and where. I would say that varies greatly globally depending on culture, social structures, government policies etc etc
- m0llusk 5y ago
  You got downvoted, but there is a very strong correlation between retirement and death. Some people may be well prepared psychologically for independence, but many are not. My plan is to keep working, but to hone my work to make it valuable to me personally. Lots of positive things people can do are also reasonably profitable. Immersion in the corporate rat race is not an inevitable result of being productive.
  - manugo4 5y ago
    Correlation is not causation
- jxidjhdhdhdhfhf 5y ago
  I plan to keep working after FI, but I really only need a couple of days a week. I've always felt 40hrs for 48-50 weeks per year is way too much.
- srean 5y ago
byproxy 5y ago
As a 34-year-old with a negative net-worth, I’m guessing this ship has sailed for me… Well, thankfully I like my current job.
- pelagicAustral 5y ago
  You and me both
masterof0 5y ago
I always liked the idea of FIRE, but I don't want to deprive my family of a decent lifestyle, so we can "retire" a bit sooner. All my friends that reached FIRE (fat FIRE), cashed out on either AirBnB or Uber IPO, definitely not something everyone can replicate. Like everything, you find people you take everything to the extreme, and tell you that counting pennies will take you to a comfortable retirement life, this type of people usually have something to sell you. In the other hand, I don't think reaching FIRE doesn't make your life miserable, or boring, etc... You can always work on something you really like, or do more volunteer work, etc. But the main idea of FIRE: saving money, and investing is not bad advice. In my case, If I were to hit the jackpot, I would just retire in South Asia, and work full-time in Open Source projects.

34 points by paradite 5y ago

Is this sarcastic? Sanitizing individualism in the Christmas Eve is not for the faint of heart. Retirement by 35 means others must retire later than they should, unless you pretend to be self-sufficient.

paradite 5y ago
I'm sorry if I had posted this at a time that bothered you. Regarding your concern, I actually believe that early retirement will increase the overall productivity of the society (because people can work things that they find passion and purpose in). So it wouldn't be at the expense of others (sorry if I understand your point incorrectly). I have addressed about this issue briefly in the "Productivity and fulfillment" section on the website. However, it is clearly lacking in depth. I will try to add more explanations on why I think that way.
smorgusofborg 5y ago
> Retirement by 35 means others must retire later than they should, unless you pretend to be self-sufficient. The advice includes lowering your expenses by spending less. You are providing less total work and you are taking the value of that work back at a slower rate. So there's no reason anyone else has to work more or less. We simply don't need the lifestyle we are buying during our working years. Personally, I think it is time to drop the standard to a 30 hour work week. It's funny that there is usually no winning with an argument over change in work habits because either you hurt people by making them work or you hurt people by taking away their work. ( Somehow the status quo is accidentally perfect, unless of course you examine any part of it.)
peakaboo 5y ago
I like individualism. The majority are easily told what to think by authority figures in the media, and people are constantly fooled into making stupid decisions and not seeing the bigger picture of events unfolding. Corporations will use people until they are no longer useful, and then kick them out. You need to put number 1 first.
Graffur 5y ago
> Sanitizing individualism in the Christmas Eve is not for the faint of heart. What on earth is this sentence supposed to mean?
- cblconfederate 5y ago
  That jesus wants you to work to pay other people's pensions. Not sure if he ever articulated in this manner though
pureblood 5y ago
jxidjhdhdhdhfhf 5y ago
Non sequitur. One person retiring early makes no difference in when others retire.

Flankk 5y ago

Yes, I can't wait to retire so I can finally master the dark art of origami. /s Since I've went in to business, I've been having so much fun I hope that I never have to retire. Normies gotta dream about something though, I guess.

pureblood 5y ago
paradite 5y ago
Glad to hear that you are enjoying what are already doing. That's a great state to be in. And if you were to ever consider retirement plans, you would fit into one of scenarios that I described on the website: > If you are already working on your passion or interest, that's even better. You can continue doing what you are doing, just with an bonus peace of mind that you have the freedom to change if things don't go the way you liked.
yunohn 5y ago
> Normies gotta dream about something though, I guess. Huh? So as a privileged business owner, you’re calling 9-5 workers as “normies” for desiring more fulfillment?
- Flankk 5y ago
  - dang 5y ago
    You've unfortunately been breaking the site guidelines repeatedly. Did you not see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29601700 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29601700, just a few days ago? We ban accounts that post like this. I don't have the impression that you're doing it deliberately, because you've also posted good things, but the problem isn't just this sort of post—it's what it evokes from other users. It basically leads to the degeneration of the forum, which is the outcome we're trying to avoid here, or at least stave off. I don't want to ban you, so if you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules, that would be good.

brailsafe 5y ago

I just can't imagine why someone would waste such a high proportion of their youth, only to realize they're probably exclusively driven by arbitrary work in the first place. Wew lads, I'm retired at 35, guess I'll find a hobby for the first time. Oh wait tho, I'm fat and depressed from selling all of my life so far, and have to spend the next 5 - 10 years undoing that while everyone else I meet has developed their life with some kind of balance. All those hobbies I could have done while I had energy, health, and friends, are kind of out the window, and the only people in my dating pool are divorcees with kids!

paradite 5y ago
Thanks for the feedback. I am more optimistic on the hypothetical case construction. Regarding depression, I believe that working towards a goal, such as retiring early, would actually help combat depression because it gives purpose to work otherwise meaningless or monotonous. Also, I don't think early retirement planning is correlated to depression, i.e. they are orthogonal. Regarding fat, the same argument, planning to retire early is not going to cause you to become fat. It is more of a lifestyle choice unrelated to when you want to retire. Curious on why you would think they are linked to early retirement. Regarding hobby, I have specifically talked about this in the website. If you already have a hobby, you shouldn't give it up just to retire early. However, if your current work is interfering your capacity on practicing your hobby, then maybe early retirement offers a "faster track" to be able to go back to your hobby than the traditional retirement route.
- brailsafe 5y ago
  I wasn't really intending to provide feedback to you on your list, I was more just a little dismayed with the premise of working backwards from the goal of retiring that early and living your easiest years in what I believe to be a waste to get there, as most people probably would need to. There's nothing wrong with the concept of retiring early, if that doesn't cost too much in terms of how you spent your time to get there. I've had a very volatile career, but I'm actually quite thankful that I've been forced to work at least 2 or 3 years less then your average person, even though I have no money to show for it. In retrospect, while it would be nice to have that money, I have memories of aimlessly travelling, hanging out with friends for hours a day in summer, and if I were to have waited till my late 30s, I'd have worked those memories away. I'm also im great shape and have a good relationship with staying in great shape, such that work will always be secondary. I also have some good friends that I've spent a lot of time with already. I know that won't always be possible, but I've established them and am decent at establishing new ones. These are things that careerist people end up losing out on entirely, a lot of the time. By contrast, if I were to not only have worked regular hours for those missing years, but probably worked extra by even oke more hour every day, a bit on weekends, and saved a higher proportion than I already was, all I'd have to show for it is money, and that's pretty hollow. Thinking about retirement doesn't make you fat, lack of spending $ and time on physical hobbies does. Spending most of your time in a chair and eating cheap/quick food does too, none of this is a stretch to reach depression.

mxschumacher 5y ago

returns on investments such as stocks, bonds and real estate have been incredibly high over the past decade - the ultra low interest rate environment that central banks around the world have created is a big contributor to this performance. It would be deeply naive to think that starting to invest today, at historically high valuations will yield the same annual returns in the next decade. Stocks are very expensive, bonds are super-crazy expensive (given that you have a contractual guarantee that upside is impossible and that real yields are negative). Extrapolating from the recent past is a dangerous game. Reversion to the mean is a law of the universe and we cannot keep going like this. If you quit your job expecting to be able to live off of your portfolio, you should have enough to still be comfortable after a 50%+ loss. Inflation is flaring up, historically this meant raised interest rates, which in turn translates to lower asset prices.

paradite 5y ago
I completely agree that investments have inherent risks, which is why investors usually transition into lower risk portfolio nearing retirement age. And I believe you already know that. The point of Retire 35 is therefore, not doing precise financial modelling. I am not qualified for that. Instead, what I propose is a change of mindset and how we view retirement. It should be a more of a "mid point" in life, rather than the "last lap", if that makes sense.
- mxschumacher 5y ago
  the traditional "lower risk" portfolio as a function of age is to decrease allocation from stocks in favor of bonds. As previously mentioned, extremely high prices for bonds coupled with substantial inflation means that bonds are no longer less risky. What's risky isn't so much a question of the asset class, but more about the price paid. Trillions of dollars are reaching for yield and it is not clear what a low risk asset might be in late 2021.
  - paradite 5y ago
    I see where you are coming from. I didn't know about the bond situation. Is that US specific? The idea is to go for whatever that is currently accepted as low risk. For example, if bonds are considered risky, maybe high interest saving accounts are the next best option. And you can adjust your retirement goals accordingly.

kwere 5y ago

how much would life expectancy increase in the next 50 years? i doubt someone with less than 4-5 millions networth can even dream about retirement figures "young adults" with 1-2 millions saved

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
mikeodds 5y ago
tell me you live in north america without telling me you live in north america
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

999900000999 5y ago

I'm thinking some wiz kid from a cheaper country could do this. Bob is from Romania, he comes to America for college and gets a new grad offer at Twitter. After 10 years he has a million in vested stock options, he sells em all to retire to the countryside of his youth. I guess I could do the same, but I can't imagine it being easy to learn Romanian. All the English speaking countries are fairly expensive to live in.

paradite 5y ago
Interesting idea. What about moving to South East Asia? Low cost of living and plenty of English speakers settle here for retirement.
- 999900000999 5y ago
  I'm actually learning Chinese right now. If I get one of these magical FAANG offers, I might be able to retire by 40. I imagine if I do try and retire in a foreign country it would be much more difficult as I'd have to get used to the culture. The again with globalization and all that I guess I could just hang out in Starbucks no matter where I'm at
- seanmcdirmid 5y ago
  Medicare doesn’t transfer, so you have to fund your own healthcare passed 62-65, when you need the most of it. Guam is an option for Americans where Medicare will still work. Otherwise if healthcare costs aren’t an issue, I might retire to a tourist town in Yunnan.

Invictus0 5y ago

Personally I like to use this calculator: https://engaging-data.com/fire-calculator/ https://engaging-data.com/fire-calculator/

paradite 5y ago
That looks very similar to the Retire 35 app in terms of functionality. You got me thinking. Maybe I would release a web version instead.

pleb_nz 5y ago

I have a saying. Retiring is dying. Yeah I know it has some flaws, but personally I don't intend to retire but to continue working. Yeah the work will change, and frequency band duration, but I plan to keep active.

rufus_foreman 5y ago
>> personally I don't intend to retire but to continue working The majority of people retire when they are forced to, not when they plan to. Everyone has a plan until life punches them in the mouth. The question is what does your life look like after that?
- pleb_nz 5y ago
  Majority based on what and where. I would say that varies greatly globally depending on culture, social structures, government policies etc etc
m0llusk 5y ago
You got downvoted, but there is a very strong correlation between retirement and death. Some people may be well prepared psychologically for independence, but many are not. My plan is to keep working, but to hone my work to make it valuable to me personally. Lots of positive things people can do are also reasonably profitable. Immersion in the corporate rat race is not an inevitable result of being productive.
- manugo4 5y ago
  Correlation is not causation
jxidjhdhdhdhfhf 5y ago
I plan to keep working after FI, but I really only need a couple of days a week. I've always felt 40hrs for 48-50 weeks per year is way too much.
srean 5y ago

byproxy 5y ago

As a 34-year-old with a negative net-worth, I’m guessing this ship has sailed for me… Well, thankfully I like my current job.

pelagicAustral 5y ago
You and me both

masterof0 5y ago

I always liked the idea of FIRE, but I don't want to deprive my family of a decent lifestyle, so we can "retire" a bit sooner. All my friends that reached FIRE (fat FIRE), cashed out on either AirBnB or Uber IPO, definitely not something everyone can replicate. Like everything, you find people you take everything to the extreme, and tell you that counting pennies will take you to a comfortable retirement life, this type of people usually have something to sell you. In the other hand, I don't think reaching FIRE doesn't make your life miserable, or boring, etc... You can always work on something you really like, or do more volunteer work, etc. But the main idea of FIRE: saving money, and investing is not bad advice. In my case, If I were to hit the jackpot, I would just retire in South Asia, and work full-time in Open Source projects.