11 ms·

To be honest, I kind of just hate having computers and wireless stuff built into cars in general. My experience is it's always buggy, and after two or three yea

To be honest, I kind of just hate having computers and wireless stuff built into cars in general. My experience is it's always buggy, and after two or three years it's mostly obsolete. Admittedly I am a dinosaur, I just bought a new car and it's a stick shift, but I feel like a decent car will last you 15-20 years and how many of you are using 20 year old computers? Also the cell connection seems problematic. Like, 4 years ago I bought my uncle a phone, and I just got notice that I have to upgrade him because t-mobiles 3g is going away. How many of my cars fancy connected features will work in 4 years?

freemint 5y ago
> My experience is it's always buggy You only notice it when it's buggy, that it saves you a lot of mpg, makes the car behave better, ... one hardly notices.
- ajdude 5y ago
  I recently had a revelation when my 2017 Mazda 6’s battery was dying, only the minimal systems were online. Despite the car having a stick shift, shifting felt clunky and the car felt like it was going to stall unless I gave it higher revs than usual when upshifting. The car would shutter when I turned too hard. As soon as I replaced the battery, the car went back to normal. I had no idea how many electric systems were factoring into my every day experience, even with a manual transmission.
hapless 5y ago
Manufacturers sell through dealer networks to the buyers of new cars, who are a very small fraction of the population, who tend to buy cars rather more often than the average person In other words, they primarily care about the first owner, and then primarily the first three years of the first owner. Everything outside that first owner's first three years is only baked-in as a matter of "resale value" -- if the entire industry adopts stuff that goes obsolete after two years, there is no competitive advantage in being err, less-obsolete.
- fennecfoxen 5y ago
  There’s a competitive advantage in being the brand that has the best resale value. The economics of pursuing that reputation aren’t always going to be a slam dunk, but it’s not worthless.
  - mulmen 5y ago
    What's the benefit? If most new car buyers lease (a good decision if you want a perpetually new car) then who cares about resale value? I suppose it makes a difference on the residual but Chrysler is still in business so it can't be that important.
    - aahortwwy 5y ago
      ... whoever is leasing them the car?
      - mulmen 5y ago
        The car will be sold as pre-owned after the initial lease. The resale value only matters in that first re-sale when it is 3-5 years old and still desirable. Why would the bank or the manufacturer (sometimes the same entity) care about the resale value 15 years out from manufacture? e: also, whoever finances the car doesn't really care either, the financing will just be more expensive.
        aahortwwy 5y ago
        Subsequent owners care about resale value and it informs their purchasing decisions.
        mulmen 5y ago
        But why would the brand care about having the perception of high resale value 15 years after sale? How does that benefit them?
makeitdouble 5y ago
My impression is most of the electronic stuff added to cars went for the better (literally lifes saved) Electronic injection control, ABS, suspension control, tire pressure sensors, near objects detection, backing monitor, automatic climate control etc. The buggy stuff stands out while the careful done part doesn’t get much attention, as usual (and I think it should be so, we’re supposed to use as naturally as possible) PS: most 20 years old cars are death traps compared to current cars, I’m not sure it’s a good advice to push people to keep using them for that long.
- rootsudo 5y ago
  "PS: most 20 years old cars are death traps compared to current cars, I’m not sure it’s a good advice to push people to keep using them for that long. " False, just because a car is "new" does not make it better. There is a global marketplace, and cars manufactured in China, Japan, India do not meet the same safety standards as if they were made in Japan for the USA market, or EU/USA manufactured cars. Cars made by Japanese Manufacturers for Japan Domestic market do not have to meet much modern standards by EU/US (rightly so, becuase it isn't sold in those markets) but your statement itself is egregious. I present to you: Toyota Wigi/Agya/Ayla (Also badge engineering it's actually made by Daihatsu!) https://toyota.com.ph/wigo https://toyota.com.ph/wigo I wrote so much about this car in another blog, because it's quite fascinating actually, you can buy the base, base, no ac vent model for new at $7,000 or 100,000,000 IDR - Indonesian Rupiah. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kzxn_Vob94 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kzxn_Vob94 or https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGIZgVPvE1g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGIZgVPvE1g No Airbags, NO Radio, no ac vents, no real b or c pillars. Just a cheap mass manufactured car that has no need to pass true safety tests. -- When I'm abroad, and I want to buy a car, I look for one that was manufactured and sold also in the USA market so that it meets NTHSA standards - Even if the car was assembled in the country, e.g. indonesia or Philippines, the chassis is 99% half assembled before entering due to tariff engineering - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tariff_engineering https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tariff_engineering (also why the Subaru Brat had seats in the truck bed that were, basically useless) So that means a 10-20yr old Honda CR-V, Fit, etc is much more safer than a new car from a major manufacturer. Then we get into the fun cars manufactured by Chinese companies. But that's another post. :)
gnopgnip 5y ago
The issue here is with deactivating the key fob radio based remote start, not the cell/internet based service.
- overgard 5y ago
  On my new car, it goes through a network service you have to subscribe to. Other fun fact: if I lost both electronic keys I would have to pay 1650 to replace them. I dont even like push button start tbh.
  - gnopgnip 5y ago
    Up until 2019 or so the key fob remote start will work forever without a subscription. But for the newest cars they are saying once your subscription to the app and remote service stops, your radio key fob based remote start will stop working also. Some of their models only get support for 3 years, after that it is $8 a month
    - overgard 5y ago
      I'm talking about Subaru, Toyota isn't the only one to pull these shenanigans
kayodelycaon 5y ago
The wireless fob for my Prius works pretty well. Except for a known issue with iPads with Apple pencils causing interference and replacing the battery every five years, I’ve never had it malfunction. But a Prius is effectively an electric car with a gas engine bolted onto the drive train.
syshum 5y ago
On top of that, they keep wanting people to finance cars longer and longer to cover the ever increasing costs while keeping monthly payments the same. We are upto some finance offering 84 mo;s now for a new car purchase, 7 years Image buying a car today, still making payments on it 5 years from now, and many of the core features stop working because cell network drops support
- overgard 5y ago
  The thing is though, afaik there isn't really any penalty for repaying the loan early. Like I have a 72mo on my car, although I expect it to be resolved long before then. I was originally going to do a 60mo but the finance guy was basically like, the longer loan gives you way more financial flexibility with very little downside.. so yeah.
  - syshum 5y ago
    Depends on the type of Auto Loan you get, if you have good credit then that is largely true, but there are auto loans that "Add On" the full interest at the start of the loan, so there is no prepayment advantage, rarer but still around are also loans that front load the interest, meaning 100% of your payments are paying the interest first until the full interest is paid off, only then do you start to pay the principle >> the longer loan gives you way more financial flexibility with very little downside.. so yeah. Yea if there is no prepayment mentalities, it make sense to get the longest loan you can as long as they are not massively increasing the rate with length. never know when something else in your life (job loss, medical, etc) may make it necessary to have that lower payment.
- FireBeyond 5y ago
  Haha. Not even. When I bought my car three months ago, the dealer said (and thought it was as insane as I did) that they had multiple lenders who would write 96 and 108 month loans.
  - HWR_14 5y ago
    If you are buying a car and you require 96 months of financing, that's a problem. If you can afford it and the interest rate is low enough why wouldn't you borrow the money?
MeinBlutIstBlau 5y ago
Klinky 5y ago
A 20-year-old car still has computers in it. 3G is 20 years old as well.
WalterBright 5y ago
My daily driver is 32 years old. Doesn't have any wireless stuff in it other than the radio. I just bought some LED headlights, and Ima gonna replace the old dim halogens with them next week. Already replaced the tail lights with LEDs, and what a nice improvement!
- beeboop 5y ago
  please please don't: https://youtu.be/2z5A-COlDPk?t=940 https://youtu.be/2z5A-COlDPk?t=940 I refuse to drive at night anymore. Headlights are way too bright and a big reason is people putting poorly made and poorly aimed aftermarket headlights on.
  - WalterBright 5y ago
    The video says the LED tail lights aren't as bright. The ones I got for the tail lights are brighter. I still had to get a matching flasher for it. The LED headlights come with a shade so they shouldn't shine upwards into traffic.
nbzso 5y ago
You are not "dinosaur". People like me are. I don't live in the city. I love driving, it is a form of active therapy. One day I realized that the UX of my M3 is making me crazy. I crafted a UX customer journey for myself and removed all the "marketing crap". Turns out all I need is basic functionality, no infotainment and focus on driving experience and reliability. Sold my BMW, bought 2001 Mercedes-Benz Compressor, restored the hell out of it. After a year, repeated this with X308 Jag and Honda Civic R 2005. Now I have a fleet of cars with no problems and versatility for my use-case. I will wait patiently for the option to electrify all of them. New cars are not exciting for me, to much "tech" for my taste. May be this is professional deformation, but I need a place in which I am in control all the time, with no distraction from the road and no "notifications", except the valuable ones related to the driving. I use a Garmin navigation and old iPod touch for infotainment needs.
- _fat_santa 5y ago
  Values for older cars with less tech has shot through the roof I feel like. Recently I was a Ford Excursion go for $100k[1] which is fucking bonkers for a 15+ year old Ford product. And looking at the market for older Land Cruisers is just as hot, used to you could get a mid 90's LC for around $10k, now they go for $20-30k. Even my 2009 4Runner, you used to be able to find the nicest one around for $10k and I bought mine for $14k with nice ones going for over $20k (keep in mind, for a 12 year old car at the youngest, usually with >100k miles). I think folks are getting fed up with these high tech cars.
  - Mezzie 5y ago
    The newer, high tech cars are a bitch to repair, especially given 2021's supply issues. Older cars are easier to keep on the road and cheaper to take care of, which are major concerns for most people. At this point, I'm glad I have the connections to get a cheap junker if I need it; my car is ending the end of its lifecycle and half the cars out there now are proprietary spy-machines.
dreamcompiler 5y ago
Same here. I just wish it could all be better because I know it could. I've been designing computer systems for decades so I know how the sausage is made, and that's why I prefer washing machines with mechanical timers and old microwave ovens and cars with no software in the cabin. If I designed any of these things with software control, the software would work in cooperation with the human operator to provide a superior UX. This stuff is hard and you have to study it to know what you're doing. But most people who build such systems today seem to have no Human Factors training because management doesn't value that skill.
pibechorro 5y ago
You and me both.
_fat_santa 5y ago
I took a major "downgrade" last year and went from a Kia Stinger (2019, all the latest tech features) to a 4Runner (2009, almost unchanged since 2003). For how ancient the 4runner is, it's become my favorite car I've ever owned, and the biggest reason it's just how dumbed down and ancient it is. No onboard wifi, no remote start, no infotainment, no over the air updates. The simplicity also makes the parts super cheap. When I bought it, the headlights were very foggy and I considered taking it somewhere to have them re-polished. I assumed new headlights would cost several hundred dollars each but when I looked i was able to find a pair of headlights and new bulbs for under $250 (for comparison, one enclosure for a Stinger is like $600). I think what I like most about the old SUV is the idea of self-reliance. Get into a modern car and you're reliant on the towers for WiFi, servers for OTA updates, service centers to work on your car, I could go on. My 4Runner is the opposite, it's not reliant on anything except my attention to it's care.
- alphabettsy 5y ago
  A modern car has features that the 4Runner does not which may be more reliant on connectivity, but the 4Runner doesn’t offer those things so I don’t get it. Without updates the newer car just becomes out of date like the 4Runner.

freemint 5y ago

> My experience is it's always buggy You only notice it when it's buggy, that it saves you a lot of mpg, makes the car behave better, ... one hardly notices.

ajdude 5y ago
I recently had a revelation when my 2017 Mazda 6’s battery was dying, only the minimal systems were online. Despite the car having a stick shift, shifting felt clunky and the car felt like it was going to stall unless I gave it higher revs than usual when upshifting. The car would shutter when I turned too hard. As soon as I replaced the battery, the car went back to normal. I had no idea how many electric systems were factoring into my every day experience, even with a manual transmission.

hapless 5y ago

Manufacturers sell through dealer networks to the buyers of new cars, who are a very small fraction of the population, who tend to buy cars rather more often than the average person In other words, they primarily care about the first owner, and then primarily the first three years of the first owner. Everything outside that first owner's first three years is only baked-in as a matter of "resale value" -- if the entire industry adopts stuff that goes obsolete after two years, there is no competitive advantage in being err, less-obsolete.

fennecfoxen 5y ago
There’s a competitive advantage in being the brand that has the best resale value. The economics of pursuing that reputation aren’t always going to be a slam dunk, but it’s not worthless.
- mulmen 5y ago
  What's the benefit? If most new car buyers lease (a good decision if you want a perpetually new car) then who cares about resale value? I suppose it makes a difference on the residual but Chrysler is still in business so it can't be that important.
  - aahortwwy 5y ago
    ... whoever is leasing them the car?
    - mulmen 5y ago
      The car will be sold as pre-owned after the initial lease. The resale value only matters in that first re-sale when it is 3-5 years old and still desirable. Why would the bank or the manufacturer (sometimes the same entity) care about the resale value 15 years out from manufacture? e: also, whoever finances the car doesn't really care either, the financing will just be more expensive.
      - aahortwwy 5y ago
        Subsequent owners care about resale value and it informs their purchasing decisions.
        mulmen 5y ago
        But why would the brand care about having the perception of high resale value 15 years after sale? How does that benefit them?

makeitdouble 5y ago

My impression is most of the electronic stuff added to cars went for the better (literally lifes saved) Electronic injection control, ABS, suspension control, tire pressure sensors, near objects detection, backing monitor, automatic climate control etc. The buggy stuff stands out while the careful done part doesn’t get much attention, as usual (and I think it should be so, we’re supposed to use as naturally as possible) PS: most 20 years old cars are death traps compared to current cars, I’m not sure it’s a good advice to push people to keep using them for that long.

rootsudo 5y ago
"PS: most 20 years old cars are death traps compared to current cars, I’m not sure it’s a good advice to push people to keep using them for that long. " False, just because a car is "new" does not make it better. There is a global marketplace, and cars manufactured in China, Japan, India do not meet the same safety standards as if they were made in Japan for the USA market, or EU/USA manufactured cars. Cars made by Japanese Manufacturers for Japan Domestic market do not have to meet much modern standards by EU/US (rightly so, becuase it isn't sold in those markets) but your statement itself is egregious. I present to you: Toyota Wigi/Agya/Ayla (Also badge engineering it's actually made by Daihatsu!) https://toyota.com.ph/wigo https://toyota.com.ph/wigo I wrote so much about this car in another blog, because it's quite fascinating actually, you can buy the base, base, no ac vent model for new at $7,000 or 100,000,000 IDR - Indonesian Rupiah. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kzxn_Vob94 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kzxn_Vob94 or https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGIZgVPvE1g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGIZgVPvE1g No Airbags, NO Radio, no ac vents, no real b or c pillars. Just a cheap mass manufactured car that has no need to pass true safety tests. -- When I'm abroad, and I want to buy a car, I look for one that was manufactured and sold also in the USA market so that it meets NTHSA standards - Even if the car was assembled in the country, e.g. indonesia or Philippines, the chassis is 99% half assembled before entering due to tariff engineering - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tariff_engineering https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tariff_engineering (also why the Subaru Brat had seats in the truck bed that were, basically useless) So that means a 10-20yr old Honda CR-V, Fit, etc is much more safer than a new car from a major manufacturer. Then we get into the fun cars manufactured by Chinese companies. But that's another post. :)

gnopgnip 5y ago

The issue here is with deactivating the key fob radio based remote start, not the cell/internet based service.

overgard 5y ago
On my new car, it goes through a network service you have to subscribe to. Other fun fact: if I lost both electronic keys I would have to pay 1650 to replace them. I dont even like push button start tbh.
- gnopgnip 5y ago
  Up until 2019 or so the key fob remote start will work forever without a subscription. But for the newest cars they are saying once your subscription to the app and remote service stops, your radio key fob based remote start will stop working also. Some of their models only get support for 3 years, after that it is $8 a month
  - overgard 5y ago
    I'm talking about Subaru, Toyota isn't the only one to pull these shenanigans

kayodelycaon 5y ago

The wireless fob for my Prius works pretty well. Except for a known issue with iPads with Apple pencils causing interference and replacing the battery every five years, I’ve never had it malfunction. But a Prius is effectively an electric car with a gas engine bolted onto the drive train.

syshum 5y ago

On top of that, they keep wanting people to finance cars longer and longer to cover the ever increasing costs while keeping monthly payments the same. We are upto some finance offering 84 mo;s now for a new car purchase, 7 years Image buying a car today, still making payments on it 5 years from now, and many of the core features stop working because cell network drops support

overgard 5y ago
The thing is though, afaik there isn't really any penalty for repaying the loan early. Like I have a 72mo on my car, although I expect it to be resolved long before then. I was originally going to do a 60mo but the finance guy was basically like, the longer loan gives you way more financial flexibility with very little downside.. so yeah.
- syshum 5y ago
  Depends on the type of Auto Loan you get, if you have good credit then that is largely true, but there are auto loans that "Add On" the full interest at the start of the loan, so there is no prepayment advantage, rarer but still around are also loans that front load the interest, meaning 100% of your payments are paying the interest first until the full interest is paid off, only then do you start to pay the principle >> the longer loan gives you way more financial flexibility with very little downside.. so yeah. Yea if there is no prepayment mentalities, it make sense to get the longest loan you can as long as they are not massively increasing the rate with length. never know when something else in your life (job loss, medical, etc) may make it necessary to have that lower payment.
FireBeyond 5y ago
Haha. Not even. When I bought my car three months ago, the dealer said (and thought it was as insane as I did) that they had multiple lenders who would write 96 and 108 month loans.
- HWR_14 5y ago
  If you are buying a car and you require 96 months of financing, that's a problem. If you can afford it and the interest rate is low enough why wouldn't you borrow the money?

MeinBlutIstBlau 5y ago

Klinky 5y ago

A 20-year-old car still has computers in it. 3G is 20 years old as well.

WalterBright 5y ago

My daily driver is 32 years old. Doesn't have any wireless stuff in it other than the radio. I just bought some LED headlights, and Ima gonna replace the old dim halogens with them next week. Already replaced the tail lights with LEDs, and what a nice improvement!

beeboop 5y ago
please please don't: https://youtu.be/2z5A-COlDPk?t=940 https://youtu.be/2z5A-COlDPk?t=940 I refuse to drive at night anymore. Headlights are way too bright and a big reason is people putting poorly made and poorly aimed aftermarket headlights on.
- WalterBright 5y ago
  The video says the LED tail lights aren't as bright. The ones I got for the tail lights are brighter. I still had to get a matching flasher for it. The LED headlights come with a shade so they shouldn't shine upwards into traffic.

nbzso 5y ago

You are not "dinosaur". People like me are. I don't live in the city. I love driving, it is a form of active therapy. One day I realized that the UX of my M3 is making me crazy. I crafted a UX customer journey for myself and removed all the "marketing crap". Turns out all I need is basic functionality, no infotainment and focus on driving experience and reliability. Sold my BMW, bought 2001 Mercedes-Benz Compressor, restored the hell out of it. After a year, repeated this with X308 Jag and Honda Civic R 2005. Now I have a fleet of cars with no problems and versatility for my use-case. I will wait patiently for the option to electrify all of them. New cars are not exciting for me, to much "tech" for my taste. May be this is professional deformation, but I need a place in which I am in control all the time, with no distraction from the road and no "notifications", except the valuable ones related to the driving. I use a Garmin navigation and old iPod touch for infotainment needs.

_fat_santa 5y ago
Values for older cars with less tech has shot through the roof I feel like. Recently I was a Ford Excursion go for $100k[1] which is fucking bonkers for a 15+ year old Ford product. And looking at the market for older Land Cruisers is just as hot, used to you could get a mid 90's LC for around $10k, now they go for $20-30k. Even my 2009 4Runner, you used to be able to find the nicest one around for $10k and I bought mine for $14k with nice ones going for over $20k (keep in mind, for a 12 year old car at the youngest, usually with >100k miles). I think folks are getting fed up with these high tech cars.
- Mezzie 5y ago
  The newer, high tech cars are a bitch to repair, especially given 2021's supply issues. Older cars are easier to keep on the road and cheaper to take care of, which are major concerns for most people. At this point, I'm glad I have the connections to get a cheap junker if I need it; my car is ending the end of its lifecycle and half the cars out there now are proprietary spy-machines.

dreamcompiler 5y ago

Same here. I just wish it could all be better because I know it could. I've been designing computer systems for decades so I know how the sausage is made, and that's why I prefer washing machines with mechanical timers and old microwave ovens and cars with no software in the cabin. If I designed any of these things with software control, the software would work in cooperation with the human operator to provide a superior UX. This stuff is hard and you have to study it to know what you're doing. But most people who build such systems today seem to have no Human Factors training because management doesn't value that skill.

pibechorro 5y ago

You and me both.

_fat_santa 5y ago

I took a major "downgrade" last year and went from a Kia Stinger (2019, all the latest tech features) to a 4Runner (2009, almost unchanged since 2003). For how ancient the 4runner is, it's become my favorite car I've ever owned, and the biggest reason it's just how dumbed down and ancient it is. No onboard wifi, no remote start, no infotainment, no over the air updates. The simplicity also makes the parts super cheap. When I bought it, the headlights were very foggy and I considered taking it somewhere to have them re-polished. I assumed new headlights would cost several hundred dollars each but when I looked i was able to find a pair of headlights and new bulbs for under $250 (for comparison, one enclosure for a Stinger is like $600). I think what I like most about the old SUV is the idea of self-reliance. Get into a modern car and you're reliant on the towers for WiFi, servers for OTA updates, service centers to work on your car, I could go on. My 4Runner is the opposite, it's not reliant on anything except my attention to it's care.

alphabettsy 5y ago
A modern car has features that the 4Runner does not which may be more reliant on connectivity, but the 4Runner doesn’t offer those things so I don’t get it. Without updates the newer car just becomes out of date like the 4Runner.