22 ms·

Toyota 'reviewing' key fob remote start subscription plan after blowback

262 points by tech_timc 5y ago

scotty79 5y ago
What do you use remote start for?
- bretto13 5y ago
  Usually to start the car in winter so the heater is going and it can defrost windows if needed.
  - Someone1234 5y ago
    Indeed, and depending on options also the mirrors too. With remote start you can walk up with an ice scraper/snow shovel and push the slurry right off then be on your way. Otherwise, you'll have to sit in the cold car for 5~10 minutes while the ice softens, then get back out and push it off (and that assumes your doors haven't frozen shut). A lot of people in warmer climates think idling is something only jerks do, those in colder areas realize you cannot safely operate your vehicle without idling with the heater running full-bore. PS - And while garages are an even better solution, it isn't realistic to expect nobody to live in town homes/apartments.
    - scotty79 5y ago
      In Poland there is a law that you can't run engine in your parked car for over a minute (if there are houses nearby). If you do, you can get a fine. It is considered excessive pollution and noise generation. And we get winters where temperature drops to below -25C It's not super strictly observed but people are concious of that and try to keep the defrost time to minimum rather scraping the ice physically than running engine for 10 minutes so the can just push off the slurry.
      - iggldiggl 5y ago
        Generally I'd agree with that and I never leave the engine running just to save myself the bother of scraping (and ideally I've remembered to cover the windscreen with a plane the night before so I only have to scrape the side windows), but I'd make one exception: Sometimes the weather conditions are such that the windscreen immediately starts icing/fogging over again, in which case you really need to leave the motor running at least two or three minutes for the heater to at least minimally start working, so you can actually see where you're going.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
rektide 5y ago
We're getting decent in home internet-of-things automation standards in the form of Matter (fingers crossed it's good enough)... what about out of home standards? I want to think of what a bring your own fob system would look like. But there's so many layers. How is the car presentable? Can i being my own sim? What if i want to upgrade to 6g? 7g? Can i upgrade the modem? Then the fob... kind of an interesting counter challenge. Anything with an internet connection, that can control the iot device? Does it work across public internet? Does it need to join a personal vpn? Does the car have it's own vpn it signs into? Can the fob be controlled? Maybe i want to geolocate the fob, or make it beep. Who iot controls the iot controller? Imo i still really really though Webinos project had their heads best screwed on to handle all of this. It was a neat vpn ish system. I really want to get out of the days of all products being totalized experiences, that the product has tonhave all possible control options built in that you'd want. I want tech to be a start, to offer options. We've really walked back the great intertwingularizing, de-api'ed the world, after a very promising exciting ~2010 that failed to deliver every prpduct has gone on it's own. It sucks for this world, is evolutionarily so limited; we shouldnt make each piece of hardware have to produce each and any kind of software anyone might need for it, & we should not limit users to having to suffer what limited offerings the maker can muster.
- userbinator 5y ago
  I want to think of what a bring your own fob system would look like. Remote start (and entry) was a relatively common aftermarket option long before most people had Internet access, and you can probably still get such systems today.
  - bearcobra 5y ago
    In Canada Toyota themselves offer Start+ which is long range starter add-on where you get an extra fob. I initially thought the subscription requirement was to give users a reason to keep buying it.
  - reaperducer 5y ago
    A few days ago, some Tesla owner on HN listed all the reasons it's awesome to have an internet-connected car. Every item he listed existed before the internet, and in no way requires an internet connection. Except for one thing about using the car as some kind of surveillance camera.
ummonk 5y ago
This is an excellent article. Rarely do I see media targeted at a popular audience actually explain technical systems / operating logic like was done here.
nimbius 5y ago
This feels like peak artificial scarcity...or some sort of dystopian capitalism run amok. Speaking as someone who's intimately familiar with automotive maintenance (its my job) your best bet if you're in the market for a car is always used. You'll miss out on the latest fad gadgets but most cars in the last decade are reliable to at least 250k miles and don't pull these kind of cash grab gimmicks. The nicest thing you can get is off brand luxury. Hyundai equus or any Acura is going to meet and exceed your expectations for comfort and performance well after 100k miles, .and your insurance is lower because they aren't a painted target for theft. Crooks want Mercedes rims, they generally don't care about what's rolling along on a Chrysler 300
- viraptor 5y ago
  Also, if you do want the convenience of a new car - there are good ex-demo cars available. Usually high-spec, with a good discount, after being driven a very short distance to show off the model by the dealer. They come with the warranty.
- throwaway0a5e 5y ago
  Yeah but as practical as a Sonata may be it doesn't scream "I have money but I'm modest, I swear" with nearly the volume of a Solara[1] [1] Yes I know they don't make it anymore, I was going for the alliteration.
- franl 5y ago
  What’s your take on all the new vehicles these days with their auto engine start/stop and cylinder deactivation tech? I can’t imagine these will make for dependable used vehicles. I believe Honda settled a class action suit related to their Variable Cylinder Management tech (https://www.autoblog.com/2013/10/23/honda-settles-class-action-lawsuit-engines/ https://www.autoblog.com/2013/10/23/honda-settles-class-acti...). Even current owners are still complaining of issues. It was enough to put me off from buying a V6 Honda.
  - hedgehog 5y ago
    Wait until the power train has been out for a while and look at reviews of vehicles that use it. Most cars have some problems but at least you'll know what you're signing up for. Some of the newer hybrid tech etc sounds complicated but mechanically isn't really that much more so than a regular automatic transmission. I look at all the Priuses running around doing taxi and delivery duty in my area for the last 15+ years, I figure if there were any major problems we would know.
donohoe 5y ago
Still never going to buy Toyota after this. It’s a symptom that they likely have other bad ideas ready to go.
- throwaway0a5e 5y ago
  They have ~15yr of being the official car of people who want to give off that upper middle class aura and moneyed commuters. Not having to seriously compete does crazy things to corporate decision making. This is likely only the tip of the bad idea iceberg. Edit: You people need to compare MSRPs and check out what adorns the driveways of "nice" places before you tell me Toyota is the people's car.
  - greedo 5y ago
    Toyota has never been upper middle class. Its Lexus brand is, but Toyota has always been just middle class.
  - ewoodrich 5y ago
    Toyota giving off an "upper middle class aura"? Like, the ubiquitous/reliable Toyota Corolla? Not something I've ever associated with the brand. Are you referring to Lexus? (made by Toyota).
  - chrisseaton 5y ago
    > ~15yr of being the official car of people who want to give off that upper middle class aura A Toyota? Think you're mistaking with a Land Rover or something.
    - dogma1138 5y ago
      Different countries would have different symbols/signals, a Land Rover aka a Chelsea Tractor/Wagon is definitely an upper middle class symbol in the UK, but not necessarily everywhere else. In other countries with either lower income or lower income to car price ratio due to import taxes and road taxes on vehicles I can definitely see a Toyota possibility being a middle class symbol. The Honda Accord was one in the late 90’s and early 2000’s in quite a few places around the world so the Camry which is quite comparable to the Accord might have been just that too. Also the Land Cruiser might fill the same niche as the Land Rover does in some places (especially in countries where Land Rover doesn’t have good market penetration or it’s priced way above what the middle class can afford), whilst not a premium SUV per say it too shabby and it ain’t cheap the 5 door version is around £60K in the UK… And regardless of price of the car the Prius was very popular with the middle class and upper middle class in its early years when it served essentially as an easy virtue signaling for many. At least until plenty of other hybrids/plug-in hybrids came out and ofc Teslas… Now the Prius is pretty much relegated to Uber and Co. and even that would shift soon enough to full on EV’s at least until governments around the word would start taxing EV charging to compensate for drop in income from fuel duties.
40four 5y ago
My ex bought a new Subaru last year and I was shocked to find out their remote start system is locked behind a similar subscription service. I worked in car sales for a bit years ago, and I had never seen this before. The models that had the option, only required the key fob, same as same as unlocking your doors. This is not the direction we want to go. Imagine if it was required the be on the subscription plan to use the remote at all, even to unlock your doors. And if you don’t pay the bill, you have to use the key by hand.
- KennyBlanken 5y ago
  Subaru disabled their telematics system in Massachusetts rather than comply with the state law requiring they give access to independent mechanics. They are incredibly petty.
  - simondotau 5y ago
    Never ascribe to pettiness that which is adequately explained by laziness. As anyone who has built internal infrastructure knows, giving a third party access to a system never designed for third party access isn’t always trivial. Even if the tech is up to scratch, there would still be a need to audit the system top to bottom. Documentation will need to be checked and improved. Disabling a feature for a tiny number of customers is, by comparison, extremely simple.
  - bubblethink 5y ago
    Now that we have the MA law, how come CA doesn't have something similar ? Is there something in the works ? Usually, CA is at the forefront of vehicle compliance laws.
    - callalex 5y ago
      CA is on the forefront of emissions controls and other environmental stuff. CA repair laws are owned by anti-repair companies like Apple.
- Waterluvian 5y ago
duxup 5y ago
I’d seriously look at another company if this was an option, it sets a horrible impression. I buy a good car so I don’t have to have a lot of reoccurring costs…
- Macha 5y ago
  Much like "dumb" TVs without ads, or phones without headphone jacks, my fear is that in the cycle time between one replacement and the next, these kind of revenue extraction models will have gone from nonpresent to omnipresent in a single replacement cycle
  - duxup 5y ago
    Yeah I worry we can’t escape it. Hopefully third parties can still install things?
- anm89 5y ago
  Exactly. What a weird hill to die on. Im about to blow 35k on a vehicle and you are going to insult me over a few $100. Why?
Overtonwindow 5y ago
This would make me return the car.
- Damogran6 5y ago
  Probably not (I mean, really...if you're otherwise invested, it's unlikely this one thing would make you go through the hassle.) That said...it might be the LAST one you buy, and you'll take the opportunity to tell everyone you know how slimy the manufacturer is. Potentially much more financially damaging than one person returning one car. (I'm looking at YOU, Samsung.)
  - Overtonwindow 5y ago
    That’s a good point, let me rephrase by saying I would not purchase the car in the first place. This is something that would stop me cold in my tracks.
14 5y ago
I personally sent Toyota an email and they gave me an unsatisfactory response claiming stuff about connected services and then I linked last weeks article explaining that the key fob remote start had nothing to do with connected services and that it seems like a cheap cash grab. And if they are so cheap to do a cash grab what other cost savings at the detriment of their vehicles are they doing. I am very happy to see they are considering reversing their decision.
howdydoo 5y ago
They should get rid of RF and have the fob send a message through AWS instead. That way they'll have servers to maintain and they'll be able to justify the subscription cost.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
rconti 5y ago
Their explanation sounds pretty plausible, even if they're using it to cover up the actual intent. Hopefully get get rid of this stupid idea once and for all. BMW did something similar recently. A few years ago, they announced a plan to make Apple CarPlay a subscription service, then walked it back. And now it sounds like they've made plans for similar options (like heated seats) to be a subscription service.[1] Not like I have any room to talk, I suppose, since I paid for an OTA feature on my Tesla (basic Autopilot, when it was cheap for 1 week), and at least in theory, the "premium connectivity" is a subscription service, even though it's "lifetime" on my car. (Whether or not it's lifetime when I sell the car to someone else is anybody's guess). And heated seats and homelink are standard on my car, but optional on others -- I wouldn't be surprised if heated seats were installed in all cars but just turned on in software. On the flipside, I was actually shocked to learn the non-homelink cars are, in fact, missing parts. It's actually somehow satisfying when an option you don't pay for is not physically installed, and therefore saved the automaker money. I'm not sure why, I guess I just like the feeling that it's not merely a software flag that you're paying for, or not. [1] https://www.thedrive.com/news/34547/bmw-is-planning-to-sell-heated-seats-and-more-as-a-subscription-no-really https://www.thedrive.com/news/34547/bmw-is-planning-to-sell-...
- userbinator 5y ago
  I wouldn't be surprised if heated seats were installed in all cars but just turned on in software. I'm not sure why, I guess I just like the feeling that it's not merely a software flag that you're paying for, or not. Agreed 100%; alternatively, it's because you actually got what you paid for, nothing less --- or more. The "your car already has the equipment, but you're not allowed to use it" mentality is what really angers people because it violates the concept of ownership.
  - raverbashing 5y ago
    This And to be fair this also means that it's cheap enough to ship it to everybody then charge later. Hence, they're being ultra petty.
- asddubs 5y ago
dang 5y ago
Recent and related: Toyota owners have to pay $8/month to keep using their key fob for remote start - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29543194 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29543194 - Dec 2021 (716 comments)
overgard 5y ago
To be honest, I kind of just hate having computers and wireless stuff built into cars in general. My experience is it's always buggy, and after two or three years it's mostly obsolete. Admittedly I am a dinosaur, I just bought a new car and it's a stick shift, but I feel like a decent car will last you 15-20 years and how many of you are using 20 year old computers? Also the cell connection seems problematic. Like, 4 years ago I bought my uncle a phone, and I just got notice that I have to upgrade him because t-mobiles 3g is going away. How many of my cars fancy connected features will work in 4 years?
- freemint 5y ago
  > My experience is it's always buggy You only notice it when it's buggy, that it saves you a lot of mpg, makes the car behave better, ... one hardly notices.
  - ajdude 5y ago
    I recently had a revelation when my 2017 Mazda 6’s battery was dying, only the minimal systems were online. Despite the car having a stick shift, shifting felt clunky and the car felt like it was going to stall unless I gave it higher revs than usual when upshifting. The car would shutter when I turned too hard. As soon as I replaced the battery, the car went back to normal. I had no idea how many electric systems were factoring into my every day experience, even with a manual transmission.
- hapless 5y ago
  Manufacturers sell through dealer networks to the buyers of new cars, who are a very small fraction of the population, who tend to buy cars rather more often than the average person In other words, they primarily care about the first owner, and then primarily the first three years of the first owner. Everything outside that first owner's first three years is only baked-in as a matter of "resale value" -- if the entire industry adopts stuff that goes obsolete after two years, there is no competitive advantage in being err, less-obsolete.
  - 5y ago
Someone1234 5y ago
The way I read Toyota's response wasn't "we're going to provide this functionality for free going forward" it was "we're going to strip this functionality from future RF remotes, and make it an app exclusive." They literally said that triple click for remote start is unintended and undocumented. Existing vehicles may get it re-enabled for free, but next major vehicle refresh I suspect we'll see the RF remotes dumbed-down as hard as possible that you'll pay them a monthly fee to regain the functionality.
- aemreunal 5y ago
  > [...] triple click for remote start is unintended and undocumented. I have a hard time understanding how a feature like this may be "unintended". Someone needs to add this functionality to the car, it's not like it's an undefined behavior of the circuitry, akin to a C compiler. If they wanted to remove it, they should've just removed it.
  - exhilaration 5y ago
    I'm sure those of us that have worked for big companies know that there's no way a feature like this got added unintentionally. It takes hours of meetings, reviews, documentation, QA, and sign offs before functionality like this reaches the buyer. They're making it sound like a crafty programmer right out of college snuck it in somehow.
    - BoorishBears 5y ago
      It didn't get added unintentionally, it was left enabled unintentionally. Obviously remote start can't be unintentional, but this is the kind of thing that's usually a simple config change away from working. Likely 3rd parties would have RE'd how to enable it in the aftermarket like they have for other cars too.
  - bravetraveler 5y ago
    I think that's what is written between the lines here - they will. I think they saw an easy way to monetize something most might not realize they already have (share holders love recurring revenue). The backlash now leading to a poor back-pedaling, with the final act being to remove the included non-centralized feature. Overall just an early introduction to the app that will take precedence, leading to the desired subscription income. They could have taken the route of, 'sorry for not documenting this better' - and keep remote start separate, and actually mention it in the manuals. Instead they nearly shame users for learning about having the feature and being upset.
rejor121 5y ago
I just want a car that doesn’t need a cell signal or have a black monitor in the middle of the dash. Never buying new again at this point.
User23 5y ago
Free software is of fundamental importance as computing becomes a part of everything. The day is coming when you won't even be able to control your own thermostat.
ppetty 5y ago
I really thought that one of the worst technological advances was the Smart TV. When my 10 year old Sharp died, the search for a Dumb TV with the same quality as a corresponding Smart TV came up empty. It seems like maybe not connecting a Smart TV and hopefully having vestigial parts inside is the best I can hope for … but it’s just a TV. Dumb cars might be ridiculously hard to come by, and sooner — maybe — than anticipated; but this seems like a space just waiting for innovation. All I have to offer is an idea for branding: LobotomizeMyDevice
- chaostheory 5y ago
  Just don't connect your smart TV to the internet and it will remain "dumb".
  - indecisive_user 5y ago
    This is exactly what I've done with several TVs over the past 5 years. Skip the internet setup, plug in a chromecast, and never utilize any of the built in "features" of the TV. It's worked great for me so far.
  - callalex 5y ago
    Some manufacturers have been caught connecting themselves to any open WiFi they can find.
    - scoopertrooper 5y ago
      This seems like a bit of an edge case though. How many open WiFi networks are laying about the regular apartment building or house?
  - DangitBobby 5y ago
    Still slow to turn on and off, still makes me pick an input device 100% of the time on startup (not remembering my last selection), still crashes occasionally, still 40% of menu items are advertisements for various services.
apatheticonion 5y ago
I like the idea of living with just my phone and nothing more. No keys, just NFC and web based authentication. I do payments via NFC and I can also use NFC to tap onto public transport. My apartment complex lives in the 1990s still and issues key fobs for elevator access and hard keys for door access. Their fobs use some esoteric encryption method and cannot be copied so I broke open my apartment key fob, extracted the chip+coil, dremiled a housing into my phone's case and hot glue gun-ed it flush into my phone case. My office HID card slips under my case. Tried to extract and embed the chip/coil of my AnytimeFitness gym fob into my phone case but I broke the fob (costing $80 for a replacement - yikes). I might try to find someone that can clone it before trying that again - doesn't work with my $100 FOB scanner. The building manager won't let me install a smart door lock on my door so I still have to carry keys. So far, I need to carry 1 key for my door and a fob for gym - everything else I can do by just tapping my phone.
- itisit 5y ago
  I like convenience and simplicity too, but I’m also a fan of backups. Having all of my daily routine in one device like that...no thanks.
  - authed 5y ago
    cheap backup phone?
  - apatheticonion 5y ago
    If your phone just holds a private/public key and your access method relies on an admin portal allowing access to nominated keys (think github) - then you could revoke access to a stolen/lost phone and add access to a new device. The device could be a phone, it could also be a smart watch. It could be a "smart" fob designed for key exchange. It could be a smart fob surgically embedded offering key exchange.
- discardable_dan 5y ago
  While I appreciate your stance, I am constantly amazed at how many people are happy to use NFC. It's demonstrably insecure [0], and using it for payment at the moment is only secure through obscurity. If it becomes more-prevalent, we will see more cases of pay-info theft attacks [1]. 0. https://www.makeuseof.com/tag/drive-nfc-hack-work/ https://www.makeuseof.com/tag/drive-nfc-hack-work/ 1. https://ajinabraham.com/blog/stealing-card-details-from-contactless-cards-in-seconds https://ajinabraham.com/blog/stealing-card-details-from-cont...
Maursault 5y ago
What is the point of remote start with a modern vehicle in the 21st Century? Report of this blowback reminds me of "Everything Is Amazing, and No One is Happy." [1] Perhaps in the 1970's during Winter in the Northern regions, remote start might have once had a valid reason to exist, but not any more. "Auto experts today say that you should warm up the car no more than 30 seconds before you start driving in winter."[2] So who are these idiots insisting on wasting their own money and gas for absolutely no personal benefit while spewing atmospheric carbon and air pollution? [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUBtKNzoKZ4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUBtKNzoKZ4 [2] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2014/12/29/the-biggest-winter-energy-myth-that-you-need-to-idle-your-car-before-driving/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2014/12/29/the-b...
- kortilla 5y ago
  > Auto experts today say that you should warm up the car no more than 30 seconds before you start driving in winter."[2] These “experts” must never have actually been in a harsh winter. Apart from electric cars, modern cars are absolutely not pleasant when it’s 0F out after just 30 seconds of running.
- discardable_dan 5y ago
  Those "idiots" are people who don't like sitting in a car with sub-40F air in it while the heater works.
- Miner49er 5y ago
  Have you ever been somewhere cold? Starting the car and getting the defrosters and heat going is helpful when your windows are covered in ice/snow. Depending on the conditions I think it can even be extremely difficult to open a car door without hot water or a remote start. Plus, it is nice to have a warm car rather then sit in the cold until it warms up. Even without a remote start most people will go out and start their car and let it warm up and the windows defrost so they can safely drive. Sure you can also scrape them to get ice/snow off but you typically also need the heat running for a bit to get them defogged or whatever.
  - 5y ago
rswail 5y ago
It's interesting to see the discussion here about used cars and the relative value of them. Cars are going the same way as phones, EVs will have substantially less mechanical maintenance required and will be much easier to recycle. The "used" car market will disappear in the same way that people recycle phones. Yes, there might be some transfer of the physical car, but using it will require your subscription to "Personal Mobility As A Service", combined with road usage charges that are derived from distance charging, instead of the proxy of an excise/tax on gasoline/petroleum. The Tesla business model is where the industry is headed. Dealerships, with the franchised model that developed, will disappear. For EU, it's happening faster, as part of the phase out of ICE cars. Expect it by ~2030.
- lancebeet 5y ago
  I don't see how this can become reality unless the price of electric vehicles declines dramatically, or if a large percentage of the population no longer owns cars. Paying over €20k per year for owning a car isn't feasible for many. I'm assuming you think these people are going to rent cars rather than own them, but that usually seems to entail a much higher cost per distance, even ignoring fuel costs. Can you elaborate on how you think this market is going to operate and what this world would look like for its inhabitants?
egberts1 5y ago
Too late, already skipped Toyota dealerships when I went shopping for my car.
mark-r 5y ago
How do you get the 3 year trial subscription? My Camry is barely a year old, and I've used up my trial. They spammed me relentlessly trying to get me to sign up for the subscription, for a service I never actually used.

262 points by tech_timc 5y ago

scotty79 5y ago

What do you use remote start for?

bretto13 5y ago
Usually to start the car in winter so the heater is going and it can defrost windows if needed.
- Someone1234 5y ago
  Indeed, and depending on options also the mirrors too. With remote start you can walk up with an ice scraper/snow shovel and push the slurry right off then be on your way. Otherwise, you'll have to sit in the cold car for 5~10 minutes while the ice softens, then get back out and push it off (and that assumes your doors haven't frozen shut). A lot of people in warmer climates think idling is something only jerks do, those in colder areas realize you cannot safely operate your vehicle without idling with the heater running full-bore. PS - And while garages are an even better solution, it isn't realistic to expect nobody to live in town homes/apartments.
  - scotty79 5y ago
    In Poland there is a law that you can't run engine in your parked car for over a minute (if there are houses nearby). If you do, you can get a fine. It is considered excessive pollution and noise generation. And we get winters where temperature drops to below -25C It's not super strictly observed but people are concious of that and try to keep the defrost time to minimum rather scraping the ice physically than running engine for 10 minutes so the can just push off the slurry.
    - iggldiggl 5y ago
      Generally I'd agree with that and I never leave the engine running just to save myself the bother of scraping (and ideally I've remembered to cover the windscreen with a plane the night before so I only have to scrape the side windows), but I'd make one exception: Sometimes the weather conditions are such that the windscreen immediately starts icing/fogging over again, in which case you really need to leave the motor running at least two or three minutes for the heater to at least minimally start working, so you can actually see where you're going.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

rektide 5y ago

We're getting decent in home internet-of-things automation standards in the form of Matter (fingers crossed it's good enough)... what about out of home standards? I want to think of what a bring your own fob system would look like. But there's so many layers. How is the car presentable? Can i being my own sim? What if i want to upgrade to 6g? 7g? Can i upgrade the modem? Then the fob... kind of an interesting counter challenge. Anything with an internet connection, that can control the iot device? Does it work across public internet? Does it need to join a personal vpn? Does the car have it's own vpn it signs into? Can the fob be controlled? Maybe i want to geolocate the fob, or make it beep. Who iot controls the iot controller? Imo i still really really though Webinos project had their heads best screwed on to handle all of this. It was a neat vpn ish system. I really want to get out of the days of all products being totalized experiences, that the product has tonhave all possible control options built in that you'd want. I want tech to be a start, to offer options. We've really walked back the great intertwingularizing, de-api'ed the world, after a very promising exciting ~2010 that failed to deliver every prpduct has gone on it's own. It sucks for this world, is evolutionarily so limited; we shouldnt make each piece of hardware have to produce each and any kind of software anyone might need for it, & we should not limit users to having to suffer what limited offerings the maker can muster.

userbinator 5y ago
I want to think of what a bring your own fob system would look like. Remote start (and entry) was a relatively common aftermarket option long before most people had Internet access, and you can probably still get such systems today.
- bearcobra 5y ago
  In Canada Toyota themselves offer Start+ which is long range starter add-on where you get an extra fob. I initially thought the subscription requirement was to give users a reason to keep buying it.
- reaperducer 5y ago
  A few days ago, some Tesla owner on HN listed all the reasons it's awesome to have an internet-connected car. Every item he listed existed before the internet, and in no way requires an internet connection. Except for one thing about using the car as some kind of surveillance camera.

ummonk 5y ago

This is an excellent article. Rarely do I see media targeted at a popular audience actually explain technical systems / operating logic like was done here.

nimbius 5y ago

This feels like peak artificial scarcity...or some sort of dystopian capitalism run amok. Speaking as someone who's intimately familiar with automotive maintenance (its my job) your best bet if you're in the market for a car is always used. You'll miss out on the latest fad gadgets but most cars in the last decade are reliable to at least 250k miles and don't pull these kind of cash grab gimmicks. The nicest thing you can get is off brand luxury. Hyundai equus or any Acura is going to meet and exceed your expectations for comfort and performance well after 100k miles, .and your insurance is lower because they aren't a painted target for theft. Crooks want Mercedes rims, they generally don't care about what's rolling along on a Chrysler 300

viraptor 5y ago
Also, if you do want the convenience of a new car - there are good ex-demo cars available. Usually high-spec, with a good discount, after being driven a very short distance to show off the model by the dealer. They come with the warranty.
throwaway0a5e 5y ago
Yeah but as practical as a Sonata may be it doesn't scream "I have money but I'm modest, I swear" with nearly the volume of a Solara[1] [1] Yes I know they don't make it anymore, I was going for the alliteration.
franl 5y ago
What’s your take on all the new vehicles these days with their auto engine start/stop and cylinder deactivation tech? I can’t imagine these will make for dependable used vehicles. I believe Honda settled a class action suit related to their Variable Cylinder Management tech (https://www.autoblog.com/2013/10/23/honda-settles-class-action-lawsuit-engines/ https://www.autoblog.com/2013/10/23/honda-settles-class-acti...). Even current owners are still complaining of issues. It was enough to put me off from buying a V6 Honda.
- hedgehog 5y ago
  Wait until the power train has been out for a while and look at reviews of vehicles that use it. Most cars have some problems but at least you'll know what you're signing up for. Some of the newer hybrid tech etc sounds complicated but mechanically isn't really that much more so than a regular automatic transmission. I look at all the Priuses running around doing taxi and delivery duty in my area for the last 15+ years, I figure if there were any major problems we would know.

donohoe 5y ago

Still never going to buy Toyota after this. It’s a symptom that they likely have other bad ideas ready to go.

throwaway0a5e 5y ago
They have ~15yr of being the official car of people who want to give off that upper middle class aura and moneyed commuters. Not having to seriously compete does crazy things to corporate decision making. This is likely only the tip of the bad idea iceberg. Edit: You people need to compare MSRPs and check out what adorns the driveways of "nice" places before you tell me Toyota is the people's car.
- greedo 5y ago
  Toyota has never been upper middle class. Its Lexus brand is, but Toyota has always been just middle class.
- ewoodrich 5y ago
  Toyota giving off an "upper middle class aura"? Like, the ubiquitous/reliable Toyota Corolla? Not something I've ever associated with the brand. Are you referring to Lexus? (made by Toyota).
- chrisseaton 5y ago
  > ~15yr of being the official car of people who want to give off that upper middle class aura A Toyota? Think you're mistaking with a Land Rover or something.
  - dogma1138 5y ago
    Different countries would have different symbols/signals, a Land Rover aka a Chelsea Tractor/Wagon is definitely an upper middle class symbol in the UK, but not necessarily everywhere else. In other countries with either lower income or lower income to car price ratio due to import taxes and road taxes on vehicles I can definitely see a Toyota possibility being a middle class symbol. The Honda Accord was one in the late 90’s and early 2000’s in quite a few places around the world so the Camry which is quite comparable to the Accord might have been just that too. Also the Land Cruiser might fill the same niche as the Land Rover does in some places (especially in countries where Land Rover doesn’t have good market penetration or it’s priced way above what the middle class can afford), whilst not a premium SUV per say it too shabby and it ain’t cheap the 5 door version is around £60K in the UK… And regardless of price of the car the Prius was very popular with the middle class and upper middle class in its early years when it served essentially as an easy virtue signaling for many. At least until plenty of other hybrids/plug-in hybrids came out and ofc Teslas… Now the Prius is pretty much relegated to Uber and Co. and even that would shift soon enough to full on EV’s at least until governments around the word would start taxing EV charging to compensate for drop in income from fuel duties.

40four 5y ago

My ex bought a new Subaru last year and I was shocked to find out their remote start system is locked behind a similar subscription service. I worked in car sales for a bit years ago, and I had never seen this before. The models that had the option, only required the key fob, same as same as unlocking your doors. This is not the direction we want to go. Imagine if it was required the be on the subscription plan to use the remote at all, even to unlock your doors. And if you don’t pay the bill, you have to use the key by hand.

KennyBlanken 5y ago
Subaru disabled their telematics system in Massachusetts rather than comply with the state law requiring they give access to independent mechanics. They are incredibly petty.
- simondotau 5y ago
  Never ascribe to pettiness that which is adequately explained by laziness. As anyone who has built internal infrastructure knows, giving a third party access to a system never designed for third party access isn’t always trivial. Even if the tech is up to scratch, there would still be a need to audit the system top to bottom. Documentation will need to be checked and improved. Disabling a feature for a tiny number of customers is, by comparison, extremely simple.
- bubblethink 5y ago
  Now that we have the MA law, how come CA doesn't have something similar ? Is there something in the works ? Usually, CA is at the forefront of vehicle compliance laws.
  - callalex 5y ago
    CA is on the forefront of emissions controls and other environmental stuff. CA repair laws are owned by anti-repair companies like Apple.
Waterluvian 5y ago

duxup 5y ago

I’d seriously look at another company if this was an option, it sets a horrible impression. I buy a good car so I don’t have to have a lot of reoccurring costs…

Macha 5y ago
Much like "dumb" TVs without ads, or phones without headphone jacks, my fear is that in the cycle time between one replacement and the next, these kind of revenue extraction models will have gone from nonpresent to omnipresent in a single replacement cycle
- duxup 5y ago
  Yeah I worry we can’t escape it. Hopefully third parties can still install things?
anm89 5y ago
Exactly. What a weird hill to die on. Im about to blow 35k on a vehicle and you are going to insult me over a few $100. Why?

Overtonwindow 5y ago

This would make me return the car.

Damogran6 5y ago
Probably not (I mean, really...if you're otherwise invested, it's unlikely this one thing would make you go through the hassle.) That said...it might be the LAST one you buy, and you'll take the opportunity to tell everyone you know how slimy the manufacturer is. Potentially much more financially damaging than one person returning one car. (I'm looking at YOU, Samsung.)
- Overtonwindow 5y ago
  That’s a good point, let me rephrase by saying I would not purchase the car in the first place. This is something that would stop me cold in my tracks.

14 5y ago

I personally sent Toyota an email and they gave me an unsatisfactory response claiming stuff about connected services and then I linked last weeks article explaining that the key fob remote start had nothing to do with connected services and that it seems like a cheap cash grab. And if they are so cheap to do a cash grab what other cost savings at the detriment of their vehicles are they doing. I am very happy to see they are considering reversing their decision.

howdydoo 5y ago

They should get rid of RF and have the fob send a message through AWS instead. That way they'll have servers to maintain and they'll be able to justify the subscription cost.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

rconti 5y ago

Their explanation sounds pretty plausible, even if they're using it to cover up the actual intent. Hopefully get get rid of this stupid idea once and for all. BMW did something similar recently. A few years ago, they announced a plan to make Apple CarPlay a subscription service, then walked it back. And now it sounds like they've made plans for similar options (like heated seats) to be a subscription service.[1] Not like I have any room to talk, I suppose, since I paid for an OTA feature on my Tesla (basic Autopilot, when it was cheap for 1 week), and at least in theory, the "premium connectivity" is a subscription service, even though it's "lifetime" on my car. (Whether or not it's lifetime when I sell the car to someone else is anybody's guess). And heated seats and homelink are standard on my car, but optional on others -- I wouldn't be surprised if heated seats were installed in all cars but just turned on in software. On the flipside, I was actually shocked to learn the non-homelink cars are, in fact, missing parts. It's actually somehow satisfying when an option you don't pay for is not physically installed, and therefore saved the automaker money. I'm not sure why, I guess I just like the feeling that it's not merely a software flag that you're paying for, or not. [1] https://www.thedrive.com/news/34547/bmw-is-planning-to-sell-heated-seats-and-more-as-a-subscription-no-really https://www.thedrive.com/news/34547/bmw-is-planning-to-sell-...

userbinator 5y ago
I wouldn't be surprised if heated seats were installed in all cars but just turned on in software. I'm not sure why, I guess I just like the feeling that it's not merely a software flag that you're paying for, or not. Agreed 100%; alternatively, it's because you actually got what you paid for, nothing less --- or more. The "your car already has the equipment, but you're not allowed to use it" mentality is what really angers people because it violates the concept of ownership.
- raverbashing 5y ago
  This And to be fair this also means that it's cheap enough to ship it to everybody then charge later. Hence, they're being ultra petty.
asddubs 5y ago

dang 5y ago

Recent and related: Toyota owners have to pay $8/month to keep using their key fob for remote start - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29543194 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29543194 - Dec 2021 (716 comments)

overgard 5y ago

To be honest, I kind of just hate having computers and wireless stuff built into cars in general. My experience is it's always buggy, and after two or three years it's mostly obsolete. Admittedly I am a dinosaur, I just bought a new car and it's a stick shift, but I feel like a decent car will last you 15-20 years and how many of you are using 20 year old computers? Also the cell connection seems problematic. Like, 4 years ago I bought my uncle a phone, and I just got notice that I have to upgrade him because t-mobiles 3g is going away. How many of my cars fancy connected features will work in 4 years?

freemint 5y ago
> My experience is it's always buggy You only notice it when it's buggy, that it saves you a lot of mpg, makes the car behave better, ... one hardly notices.
- ajdude 5y ago
  I recently had a revelation when my 2017 Mazda 6’s battery was dying, only the minimal systems were online. Despite the car having a stick shift, shifting felt clunky and the car felt like it was going to stall unless I gave it higher revs than usual when upshifting. The car would shutter when I turned too hard. As soon as I replaced the battery, the car went back to normal. I had no idea how many electric systems were factoring into my every day experience, even with a manual transmission.
hapless 5y ago
Manufacturers sell through dealer networks to the buyers of new cars, who are a very small fraction of the population, who tend to buy cars rather more often than the average person In other words, they primarily care about the first owner, and then primarily the first three years of the first owner. Everything outside that first owner's first three years is only baked-in as a matter of "resale value" -- if the entire industry adopts stuff that goes obsolete after two years, there is no competitive advantage in being err, less-obsolete.
- 5y ago

Someone1234 5y ago

The way I read Toyota's response wasn't "we're going to provide this functionality for free going forward" it was "we're going to strip this functionality from future RF remotes, and make it an app exclusive." They literally said that triple click for remote start is unintended and undocumented. Existing vehicles may get it re-enabled for free, but next major vehicle refresh I suspect we'll see the RF remotes dumbed-down as hard as possible that you'll pay them a monthly fee to regain the functionality.

aemreunal 5y ago
> [...] triple click for remote start is unintended and undocumented. I have a hard time understanding how a feature like this may be "unintended". Someone needs to add this functionality to the car, it's not like it's an undefined behavior of the circuitry, akin to a C compiler. If they wanted to remove it, they should've just removed it.
- exhilaration 5y ago
  I'm sure those of us that have worked for big companies know that there's no way a feature like this got added unintentionally. It takes hours of meetings, reviews, documentation, QA, and sign offs before functionality like this reaches the buyer. They're making it sound like a crafty programmer right out of college snuck it in somehow.
  - BoorishBears 5y ago
    It didn't get added unintentionally, it was left enabled unintentionally. Obviously remote start can't be unintentional, but this is the kind of thing that's usually a simple config change away from working. Likely 3rd parties would have RE'd how to enable it in the aftermarket like they have for other cars too.
- bravetraveler 5y ago
  I think that's what is written between the lines here - they will. I think they saw an easy way to monetize something most might not realize they already have (share holders love recurring revenue). The backlash now leading to a poor back-pedaling, with the final act being to remove the included non-centralized feature. Overall just an early introduction to the app that will take precedence, leading to the desired subscription income. They could have taken the route of, 'sorry for not documenting this better' - and keep remote start separate, and actually mention it in the manuals. Instead they nearly shame users for learning about having the feature and being upset.

rejor121 5y ago

I just want a car that doesn’t need a cell signal or have a black monitor in the middle of the dash. Never buying new again at this point.

User23 5y ago

Free software is of fundamental importance as computing becomes a part of everything. The day is coming when you won't even be able to control your own thermostat.

ppetty 5y ago

I really thought that one of the worst technological advances was the Smart TV. When my 10 year old Sharp died, the search for a Dumb TV with the same quality as a corresponding Smart TV came up empty. It seems like maybe not connecting a Smart TV and hopefully having vestigial parts inside is the best I can hope for … but it’s just a TV. Dumb cars might be ridiculously hard to come by, and sooner — maybe — than anticipated; but this seems like a space just waiting for innovation. All I have to offer is an idea for branding: LobotomizeMyDevice

chaostheory 5y ago
Just don't connect your smart TV to the internet and it will remain "dumb".
- indecisive_user 5y ago
  This is exactly what I've done with several TVs over the past 5 years. Skip the internet setup, plug in a chromecast, and never utilize any of the built in "features" of the TV. It's worked great for me so far.
- callalex 5y ago
  Some manufacturers have been caught connecting themselves to any open WiFi they can find.
  - scoopertrooper 5y ago
    This seems like a bit of an edge case though. How many open WiFi networks are laying about the regular apartment building or house?
- DangitBobby 5y ago
  Still slow to turn on and off, still makes me pick an input device 100% of the time on startup (not remembering my last selection), still crashes occasionally, still 40% of menu items are advertisements for various services.

apatheticonion 5y ago

I like the idea of living with just my phone and nothing more. No keys, just NFC and web based authentication. I do payments via NFC and I can also use NFC to tap onto public transport. My apartment complex lives in the 1990s still and issues key fobs for elevator access and hard keys for door access. Their fobs use some esoteric encryption method and cannot be copied so I broke open my apartment key fob, extracted the chip+coil, dremiled a housing into my phone's case and hot glue gun-ed it flush into my phone case. My office HID card slips under my case. Tried to extract and embed the chip/coil of my AnytimeFitness gym fob into my phone case but I broke the fob (costing $80 for a replacement - yikes). I might try to find someone that can clone it before trying that again - doesn't work with my $100 FOB scanner. The building manager won't let me install a smart door lock on my door so I still have to carry keys. So far, I need to carry 1 key for my door and a fob for gym - everything else I can do by just tapping my phone.

itisit 5y ago
I like convenience and simplicity too, but I’m also a fan of backups. Having all of my daily routine in one device like that...no thanks.
- authed 5y ago
  cheap backup phone?
- apatheticonion 5y ago
  If your phone just holds a private/public key and your access method relies on an admin portal allowing access to nominated keys (think github) - then you could revoke access to a stolen/lost phone and add access to a new device. The device could be a phone, it could also be a smart watch. It could be a "smart" fob designed for key exchange. It could be a smart fob surgically embedded offering key exchange.
discardable_dan 5y ago
While I appreciate your stance, I am constantly amazed at how many people are happy to use NFC. It's demonstrably insecure [0], and using it for payment at the moment is only secure through obscurity. If it becomes more-prevalent, we will see more cases of pay-info theft attacks [1]. 0. https://www.makeuseof.com/tag/drive-nfc-hack-work/ https://www.makeuseof.com/tag/drive-nfc-hack-work/ 1. https://ajinabraham.com/blog/stealing-card-details-from-contactless-cards-in-seconds https://ajinabraham.com/blog/stealing-card-details-from-cont...

Maursault 5y ago

What is the point of remote start with a modern vehicle in the 21st Century? Report of this blowback reminds me of "Everything Is Amazing, and No One is Happy." [1] Perhaps in the 1970's during Winter in the Northern regions, remote start might have once had a valid reason to exist, but not any more. "Auto experts today say that you should warm up the car no more than 30 seconds before you start driving in winter."[2] So who are these idiots insisting on wasting their own money and gas for absolutely no personal benefit while spewing atmospheric carbon and air pollution? [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUBtKNzoKZ4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUBtKNzoKZ4 [2] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2014/12/29/the-biggest-winter-energy-myth-that-you-need-to-idle-your-car-before-driving/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2014/12/29/the-b...

kortilla 5y ago
> Auto experts today say that you should warm up the car no more than 30 seconds before you start driving in winter."[2] These “experts” must never have actually been in a harsh winter. Apart from electric cars, modern cars are absolutely not pleasant when it’s 0F out after just 30 seconds of running.
discardable_dan 5y ago
Those "idiots" are people who don't like sitting in a car with sub-40F air in it while the heater works.
Miner49er 5y ago
Have you ever been somewhere cold? Starting the car and getting the defrosters and heat going is helpful when your windows are covered in ice/snow. Depending on the conditions I think it can even be extremely difficult to open a car door without hot water or a remote start. Plus, it is nice to have a warm car rather then sit in the cold until it warms up. Even without a remote start most people will go out and start their car and let it warm up and the windows defrost so they can safely drive. Sure you can also scrape them to get ice/snow off but you typically also need the heat running for a bit to get them defogged or whatever.
- 5y ago

rswail 5y ago

It's interesting to see the discussion here about used cars and the relative value of them. Cars are going the same way as phones, EVs will have substantially less mechanical maintenance required and will be much easier to recycle. The "used" car market will disappear in the same way that people recycle phones. Yes, there might be some transfer of the physical car, but using it will require your subscription to "Personal Mobility As A Service", combined with road usage charges that are derived from distance charging, instead of the proxy of an excise/tax on gasoline/petroleum. The Tesla business model is where the industry is headed. Dealerships, with the franchised model that developed, will disappear. For EU, it's happening faster, as part of the phase out of ICE cars. Expect it by ~2030.

lancebeet 5y ago
I don't see how this can become reality unless the price of electric vehicles declines dramatically, or if a large percentage of the population no longer owns cars. Paying over €20k per year for owning a car isn't feasible for many. I'm assuming you think these people are going to rent cars rather than own them, but that usually seems to entail a much higher cost per distance, even ignoring fuel costs. Can you elaborate on how you think this market is going to operate and what this world would look like for its inhabitants?

egberts1 5y ago

Too late, already skipped Toyota dealerships when I went shopping for my car.

mark-r 5y ago

How do you get the 3 year trial subscription? My Camry is barely a year old, and I've used up my trial. They spammed me relentlessly trying to get me to sign up for the subscription, for a service I never actually used.