5 ms·

> learned that Apple had access to my personal iMessages I wanted to highlight this specific statement. If this is true, it has major implications in a varie

> learned that Apple had access to my personal iMessages I wanted to highlight this specific statement. If this is true, it has major implications in a variety of arenas, notwithstanding the language in Apple's Privacy Policy which explicitly states that Apple cannot read personal messages [1]. [1] End-to-End Encryption on https://www.apple.com/privacy/features/ https://www.apple.com/privacy/features/

alexfromapex 5y ago
It's true, I even recall Apple telling people who apply for jobs with them that they will use your personal Apple account. It's really creepy and dystopian. Another creepy thing is the new "feature" in iOS where it recognizes text in your photos...ummmm no thanks
- rasengan 5y ago
  Does this apply to any account on iMessage, or are Apple Staff accounts specifically flagged to be delivered and/or pre-saved unencrypted?
  - alexfromapex 5y ago
    They have access to any iMessages they want: https://www.forbes.com/sites/zakdoffman/2021/05/15/how-to-stop-apple-reading-your-imessages-on-your-iphone-ipad-mac/?sh=4e3e4b477777 https://www.forbes.com/sites/zakdoffman/2021/05/15/how-to-st...
    - clsec 5y ago
      That article states that they only have access when you have iCloud enabled.
      - howinteresting 5y ago
        Which most people do -- and even if you do not, if your contact does, Apple and the FBI have access to your messages to them.
- simplestats 5y ago
  > Another creepy thing is the new "feature" in iOS where it recognizes text in your photos...ummmm no thanks I think all major platforms do this by now. Certainly for files in cloud storage, perhaps even the search indexers on your local storage too.
  - Daniel_sk 5y ago
    This is done on device.
    - simplestats 5y ago
      I was thinking of windows too when I said all platforms.
gruez 5y ago
if you have icloud backup enabled, then it's conceivable that apple has access to your messages.
- rasengan 5y ago
  How is that possible if iCloud is also purportedly end-to-end encrypted [1]. Specifically, this page says "No one else, not even Apple, can access end-to-end encrypted information." [1] https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - Daniel_sk 5y ago
    https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303 "For Messages in iCloud, if you have iCloud Backup turned on, your backup includes a copy of the key protecting your messages. This ensures you can recover your messages if you lose access to your Keychain and your trusted devices. When you turn off iCloud Backup, a new key is generated on your device to protect future messages and isn't stored by Apple." The key to iMessage backup is stored in iCloud for convenience for the end-user. The password has to be stored somewhere. Other e2e messengers usually don't have message backup or have only manual message backup where you are responsible for not loosing the key. Apple is not able to access iMessage if you don't enable iCloud backup for iMessage.
    - ubercore 5y ago
      It's too bad they allow this loophole, since it gives people a false impression. Even turning off icloud backup, the other half of the conversation could be using it still.
      - gruez 5y ago
        >It's too bad they allow this loophole 1. the "loophole" is a trade-off between usability and security. Making icloud backups end-to-end-encrypted (ie. you manage the keys) would be more secure, but would a usability nighmare. People are terrible at storing/remembering keys. It's very probable that by the time someone needs a backup, they would have forgotten/lost it, making their backups useless 2. is it really an issue that apple "allows" the loophole? Ultimately you need to trust your conversation partner. Even if icloud backups wasn't a thing, there's a dozen other ways your conversation can be compromised by your partner eg. them taking a screenshot, them leaving their phones unlocked, them snitching on you.
bberenberg 5y ago
I believe this is true if you don't use iCloud to back up messages. I was on a grand jury where Apple provided messages and images from the persons iCloud backup. The DA made a point about how the individual had deleted them from their phone.
draw_down 5y ago
e0a74c 5y ago
Why would anyone ever assume that Apple is telling the truth? Because they say so? (lol)
- howinteresting 5y ago
  Big tech companies tend to not outright lie, but instead stretch the truth as far as it can go to further their ulterior motives. Apple's marketing of iMessages as end-to-end encrypted (except if you or your contact has iCloud backups turned on) certainly qualifies.
  - e0a74c 5y ago
    > Big tech companies tend to not outright lie, but instead stretch the truth as far as it can go to further their ulterior motives. Yeah, it's lying in all but name if you ask me.
howinteresting 5y ago
I don't mean to be condescending here, but are you just learning about Apple's constant dissembling in this regard? The FBI loves it when people use iMessage, since most people have iCloud backups turned on. Whatsapp is also pretty bad, but iMessage is some next level BS. https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-features/whatsapp-imessage-facebook-apple-fbi-privacy-1261816/ https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-features/what... https://propertyofthepeople.org/document-detail/?doc-id=21114562 https://propertyofthepeople.org/document-detail/?doc-id=2111...
ralfd 5y ago
What is more probable: A) That Apple is breaking their own end-to-end encryption and potentially conjuring up a PR huge shit storm and legal problems by spying on a low level engineer? B) Or that the other side of her iMessages simply snitched on her to middle management? C) Or that she is needlessly paranoid?
- howinteresting 5y ago
  Turns out that A is the correct answer. Also, she wasn't "low-level", whatever that means.
  - ralfd 5y ago
    Do you have a link?
    - howinteresting 5y ago
      https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-51207744 https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-51207744 https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-features/whatsapp-imessage-facebook-apple-fbi-privacy-1261816/ https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-features/what...
      - ralfd 5y ago
        I think you are confused. The first link is about iCloud, not iMessage. The Rolling Stone link is behind a paywall. Both don't have anything to do with the case at hand.

alexfromapex 5y ago

It's true, I even recall Apple telling people who apply for jobs with them that they will use your personal Apple account. It's really creepy and dystopian. Another creepy thing is the new "feature" in iOS where it recognizes text in your photos...ummmm no thanks

rasengan 5y ago
Does this apply to any account on iMessage, or are Apple Staff accounts specifically flagged to be delivered and/or pre-saved unencrypted?
- alexfromapex 5y ago
  They have access to any iMessages they want: https://www.forbes.com/sites/zakdoffman/2021/05/15/how-to-stop-apple-reading-your-imessages-on-your-iphone-ipad-mac/?sh=4e3e4b477777 https://www.forbes.com/sites/zakdoffman/2021/05/15/how-to-st...
  - clsec 5y ago
    That article states that they only have access when you have iCloud enabled.
    - howinteresting 5y ago
      Which most people do -- and even if you do not, if your contact does, Apple and the FBI have access to your messages to them.
simplestats 5y ago
> Another creepy thing is the new "feature" in iOS where it recognizes text in your photos...ummmm no thanks I think all major platforms do this by now. Certainly for files in cloud storage, perhaps even the search indexers on your local storage too.
- Daniel_sk 5y ago
  This is done on device.
  - simplestats 5y ago
    I was thinking of windows too when I said all platforms.

gruez 5y ago

if you have icloud backup enabled, then it's conceivable that apple has access to your messages.

rasengan 5y ago
How is that possible if iCloud is also purportedly end-to-end encrypted [1]. Specifically, this page says "No one else, not even Apple, can access end-to-end encrypted information." [1] https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- Daniel_sk 5y ago
  https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303 "For Messages in iCloud, if you have iCloud Backup turned on, your backup includes a copy of the key protecting your messages. This ensures you can recover your messages if you lose access to your Keychain and your trusted devices. When you turn off iCloud Backup, a new key is generated on your device to protect future messages and isn't stored by Apple." The key to iMessage backup is stored in iCloud for convenience for the end-user. The password has to be stored somewhere. Other e2e messengers usually don't have message backup or have only manual message backup where you are responsible for not loosing the key. Apple is not able to access iMessage if you don't enable iCloud backup for iMessage.
  - ubercore 5y ago
    It's too bad they allow this loophole, since it gives people a false impression. Even turning off icloud backup, the other half of the conversation could be using it still.
    - gruez 5y ago
      >It's too bad they allow this loophole 1. the "loophole" is a trade-off between usability and security. Making icloud backups end-to-end-encrypted (ie. you manage the keys) would be more secure, but would a usability nighmare. People are terrible at storing/remembering keys. It's very probable that by the time someone needs a backup, they would have forgotten/lost it, making their backups useless 2. is it really an issue that apple "allows" the loophole? Ultimately you need to trust your conversation partner. Even if icloud backups wasn't a thing, there's a dozen other ways your conversation can be compromised by your partner eg. them taking a screenshot, them leaving their phones unlocked, them snitching on you.

bberenberg 5y ago

I believe this is true if you don't use iCloud to back up messages. I was on a grand jury where Apple provided messages and images from the persons iCloud backup. The DA made a point about how the individual had deleted them from their phone.

draw_down 5y ago

e0a74c 5y ago

Why would anyone ever assume that Apple is telling the truth? Because they say so? (lol)

howinteresting 5y ago
Big tech companies tend to not outright lie, but instead stretch the truth as far as it can go to further their ulterior motives. Apple's marketing of iMessages as end-to-end encrypted (except if you or your contact has iCloud backups turned on) certainly qualifies.
- e0a74c 5y ago
  > Big tech companies tend to not outright lie, but instead stretch the truth as far as it can go to further their ulterior motives. Yeah, it's lying in all but name if you ask me.

howinteresting 5y ago

I don't mean to be condescending here, but are you just learning about Apple's constant dissembling in this regard? The FBI loves it when people use iMessage, since most people have iCloud backups turned on. Whatsapp is also pretty bad, but iMessage is some next level BS. https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-features/whatsapp-imessage-facebook-apple-fbi-privacy-1261816/ https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-features/what... https://propertyofthepeople.org/document-detail/?doc-id=21114562 https://propertyofthepeople.org/document-detail/?doc-id=2111...

ralfd 5y ago

What is more probable: A) That Apple is breaking their own end-to-end encryption and potentially conjuring up a PR huge shit storm and legal problems by spying on a low level engineer? B) Or that the other side of her iMessages simply snitched on her to middle management? C) Or that she is needlessly paranoid?

howinteresting 5y ago
Turns out that A is the correct answer. Also, she wasn't "low-level", whatever that means.
- ralfd 5y ago
  Do you have a link?
  - howinteresting 5y ago
    https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-51207744 https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-51207744 https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-features/whatsapp-imessage-facebook-apple-fbi-privacy-1261816/ https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-features/what...
    - ralfd 5y ago
      I think you are confused. The first link is about iCloud, not iMessage. The Rolling Stone link is behind a paywall. Both don't have anything to do with the case at hand.