11 ms·

I really don't understand China, but China also don't care to understand the west one bit. China has zero cultural understand about anything beyond its borders

I really don't understand China, but China also don't care to understand the west one bit. China has zero cultural understand about anything beyond its borders and basically only survives on other cultures being either extremely flexible or completely dependent on China for manufacturing (or both). We're basically just waiting for companies to pull manufacturing from China, because they can deal with the backlash at home for ever, or some western leader to snap and just tell China to "Go kill whoever you need to get rid of so we can move on".

pjmlp 5y ago
We can start by not buying anything Made In China as much as possible, however I fail to ever see that happening, as most are quick to forget their morals when it hits their wallets.
- rob_c 5y ago
  I wouldn't say people forget as a lot of people don't have the extra capital to shop for soy vegan lates every morning for breakfast. These decisions are firmly in the realm of the political economics. Either cut off the product supply through embargoes or taxes or build a competing supply chain...
- blizdiddy 5y ago
  Yep, who needs foreign policy when we can buy different sneakers? Clearly shaming consumer habits will scale better. If we just all act without self-interest, there is really no problem!
  - pjmlp 5y ago
    Start by being the change don't wait for it to happen.
- earthscienceman 5y ago
- smhenderson 5y ago
  It's also become increasingly difficult, and in some cases nigh impossible, to avoid items from China. I'm older and don't need a lot beyond the food and shelter I work for, I have plenty of "stuff". But buying clothing, gifts, electronics, well, the list is long and I won't try to cover everything here, that doesn't have at least part of it's assembly provided by China is not easy to avoid. It's not just people's wallets, it's time, it's lack of knowledge and one's ability to figure out how to get what they need without involving China in the acquisition. I agree with you, but let's not pretend that we don't stop "buying from China" because we're all too lazy and greedy to do so. We could use some legislative and corporate support and I think a lot more people would get on board.
  - syshum 5y ago
    It is hard if you want to say "Buy American" or something like that But I find it easy to avoid chinese products, for example I just recently was in the market for some cookware, I thought my choices were expensive American made pans, or cheap China, but in reality I found some very good cookware coming out of South America for very good price
  - mrweasel 5y ago
    Clothing isn’t to bad, most is made in other countries, who are terrible in their own way. For stuff like electronics is impossible, it’s almost all made in China. The only solution I see it keeping stuff for longer or buying used.
    - ekianjo 5y ago
      Not all made per se, but assembled in China at least. china is not yet a powerhouse when it comes to manufacture top of the line SoCs for example.
    - throwaway2037 5y ago
      On a positive note, most modern electronics have a bunch of "bent metal", screws, and memory + microprocessors. The first two are very low value and frequently produced directly in China. The last two are high value and most frequently produced in Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, the United States, and various parts of Europe. When you look at the "value added" by assembly of an iPhone in China, it is astonishingly low. The vast majority of value (for hardware) is added outside of China.
- alexfromapex 5y ago
  This is mostly the fault of big box retail stores sourcing most of their merchandise in China. It will take consumers totally boycotting Chinese merchandise in order for them to stop ordering more stuff from China.
  - pjmlp 5y ago
    Which is why consumers that care need to change their habits. This doesn't apply only to China sourced goods.
- eitland 5y ago
  > as most are quick to forget their morals when it hits their wallets. I realized the other day that if I saw a tray of "Made in China" utensils and a comparable tray of "Made in Africa/Europe/USA" utensils of roughly the same quality I'd happily pay a dollar or two extra, no questions asked for the ones that doesn't originate in China these days. I ended up not buying it at all since there was no alternative that was not made in China and I really wasn't in the mood for buying anything Chinese after their recent bullying of Lithuania. I am in the mood for buying something from Lithuania though, almost to the point of ordering a bag of fresh Lithuanian air for about $10 or $20 bucks just for the point of it if someone offers it.
  - kgran 5y ago
    It seems that pure Lithuanian air cans are all sold out. As an alternative, you can buy Lithuanian cow dung in a can here: https://dovanusalis.lt/lietuviskas-karvutes-sudas-skardineje https://dovanusalis.lt/lietuviskas-karvutes-sudas-skardineje I couldn't see an English translation of the website, so you have to translate things or guess a little to navigate there.
    - eitland 5y ago
      I guess customs aren't too happy to allow cow dung across the borders, but otherwise this is brilliant: at the moment I want to buy Lithuanian cow dung more than buying anything from China :-)
  - tadasv 5y ago
    Buy https://stores.balticvalue.com/products/electric-potato-grater-110-volt-to-canada-usa.html https://stores.balticvalue.com/products/electric-potato-grat... They ship it straight from lithuania. I got one recently myself. Made it Lithuania also. Then use this device to make Kugelis.
- zelon88 5y ago
  That's not going to do anything. In modern day, American companies have more to gain in China than they have to lose in the USA. The market they are chasing is 3 times larger than the US and the only "regulation" in sight is basically bribing local government. Don't be surprised if the companies you boycott simply move operations to China and cut ties with the US. China devalues its domestic currency on purpose so that oligarchs use the stronger American dollar as a vehicle. Once the companies move to China they can strengthen their domestic currency, shed the dollar, and then Americans will be making Ipads in factories with suicide nets and China will be sipping Starbucks wearing inexpensive "Made in USA" Apple watches
  - foepys 5y ago
    This is completely ignoring the fact that China doesn't want foreign companies operating inside their borders unless they form a joint venture with a local Chinese owned company that owns >50%. China is also an authoritarian regime that does not care about laws if a company doesn't play ball. They will just be shut down. This doesn't sound like a good market to put all your trust into.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
  - TearsInTheRain 5y ago
    3x larger in people is not 3x larger in wealth. I think US and China are comparable in that regard. And I dont know if the opportunity going forward is so incredible given China's debt levels and impending population bust.
    - zelon88 5y ago
      You don't understand. China is in debt because the government wants to be in debt. They have to be to have population control. If there were no debt their population would have already busted. The oligarchs who rule China don't use Chinese currency. So they are not impacted by debt levels. China also doesn't promote their currency internationally as a means of keeping domestic purchasing power low. If you threaten China they will reverse these decisions and actually try to compete for quality of life. That's where western civilization as we know it ends. That's where the American empire falls and the Chinese empire rises.
bhouston 5y ago
> "Go kill whoever you need to get rid of so we can move on." Israel appears to be one of the Western nations where they are deepening ties and not bowing to US pressure to disengage: * http://www.news.cn/english/2021-11/17/c_1310316894.htm http://www.news.cn/english/2021-11/17/c_1310316894.htm * https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/06/16/us-israel-china-deals/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/06/16/us-israel-china-deals/ * https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/israel-not-expected-to-join-bizarre-u-s-boycott-of-winter-olympics-in-china-1.10448868 https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/israel-not-expected-to-j...
mpol 5y ago
If you allow me to throw in an idea, and please correct me if you see fit. In earlier times the Confucian pacifist ways of China were not up to the aggression of Western Europe, the US and Japan. In more recent times they learned to deal better with these foreign powers. The last thing they want is to give up their autonomy and culture and get run over by all these well meaning politicians that are very much after power anyway. The moslim communities might be seen as a threat to Chinese conformity since they often hold very tight their moslim culture. The same thing might be happening around Falun Dafa. I don't really know how it started, but where we are now, they might be seen as a threat as well, since they are now quite aggressive in their wordings towards the Chinese government.
- mrweasel 5y ago
  That makes perfect sense to me. What China fails to understand is that this approach have it’s own problem, in respect to their role in the world. It protects China and it’s culture, but makes it impossible for western nations to depend on the country.
- sharklazer 5y ago
  [flagged]
  - dang 5y ago
    Posting this sort of hellish flamewar comment to HN will get you banned here, regardless of how right you are or feel you are, and regardless of which country you have a problem with. If you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting to HN, we'd appreciate it. You broke a ton of them here—seriously not cool.
    - sharklazer 5y ago
      Understood. I was going to delete it... then it got flagged. No excuse.
lvl100 5y ago
US fed the beast that is CCP and now the beast can’t be controlled. Do you fault the beast or the idiot who miscalculated and kept feeding the beast?
- ceejayoz 5y ago
  You blame both, since they're both sets of sentients capable of reason, not cats mesmerized by a laser pointer.
- Layke1123 5y ago
  I wonder if they would use the same dehumanizing terms back at us? What makes you want to refer to humans as "beasts", and why use the term "beast" in the first place? Do wild animals frighten you?
- wolverine876 5y ago
  The US has never supported the CCP. The US supported trade with China the country and with the people of China, and also their freedom and rights. The trade also benefitted the CCP. It's long been believed, and many times it's happened, that as countries grow middle classes they become democratic and free (Taiwan, South Korea, etc.). So far the CCP has forstalled that, but despite the trend in disparaging democracy (also in democracies, bizarrely), there's a long history showing that it wasn't a crazy idea and, despite recent setbacks, hardly impossible.
wyuenho 5y ago
It's not about culture. China has been interacting with the rest of the world for millennia. It's about mindset. It's about them not willing to let go of their chauvinistic imperial outlook they impart on themselves and to the world.
- throw44532323 5y ago
  - Quarrelsome 5y ago
    today, not the 19th century.
- dang 5y ago
  Nationalistic flamewar is not allowed on HN and posting this sort of nationalistic denunciation is not ok, regardless of which country you have a problem with. If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful.
  - jerry_cto 5y ago
  - wyuenho 5y ago
    But the parent is? Han Chauvinism actually is an academic topic you know. It's not any denunciation, it's a fact. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Han_chauvinism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Han_chauvinism
    - dang 5y ago
      The parent isn't ok either. I probably could, and maybe should, have posted the same scolding there. Your phrasing seemed marginally worse to me. Re "fact": it's of course good to be talking about facts as opposed to fantasies, but it's not sufficient for good discussion here. There are many other variables, including (1) which facts people select to talk about (there are infinitely many, after all), and (2) how they talk about them. Those things are choices, not facts. Past explanations here if anyone wants more: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&query=by%3Adang%20infinitely%20many%20facts&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...
api 5y ago
China is in the same position as Saudi Arabia. They have something the rest of the world needs so they can do anything they want. For China it’s cheap skilled labor. For Saudi it’s oil, gas, and loads of cash.
temp8964 5y ago
It's really not about "China". It's all about CCP. It's also not the CCP doesn't care. The CCP does care about its international image. But it's making choice between domestic control and international image. It's obvious to CCP right now that the world is heavily rely on China's market and manufacturing power. So the CCP can use it to suppress any backlash, and do terrible things domestically. The whole HK affair has firmly proved that the western world can't do anything to it. Invading Taiwan is definitely in its calculation.
Shadonototra 5y ago
> and basically only survives on other cultures being either extremely flexible or completely dependent on China for manufacturing (or both). yeah, china only exist since 1940, it's a known fact ;) > We're basically just waiting for companies to pull manufacturing from China, because they can deal with the backlash at home for ever, or some western leader to snap and just tell China to "Go kill whoever you need to get rid of so we can move on". the west is just waiting to make more profit from its own people, if that means building their factory in china and destroying jobs, families and lives, they'll do it in the meantime China is already on the far side of the moon and is about to land on the moon with its bases -- if we want to improve our society, we must stop being blind and repeat what ever propaganda we hear in the west about China China is doing exactly what we are doing, if you mad at china, be mad at yourself for building this society China eradicated extreme poverty in its country, what the west did to its people? the US still doesn't have universal healthcare between the 2 model of society, China's is looking more human and is willing to advance humankind more i'd rather empower China than what ever the English block is trying to do ;)
- splitstud 5y ago
  Supply chains are already moving from China as fast as possible. Access to western markets will disappear. No amount of rhetoric will change this.
tomtung 5y ago
> China also don't care to understand the west one bit. China has zero cultural understand about anything beyond its borders Well, consider how many people in China have learned English, can read articles / online discussions in English, or have traveled to the west. Contrast that to the number of westerners who can read Chinese or have been to China. China surely understands the west a lot better than the other way around. It just disagrees and has its own interests to look after.

pjmlp 5y ago

We can start by not buying anything Made In China as much as possible, however I fail to ever see that happening, as most are quick to forget their morals when it hits their wallets.

rob_c 5y ago
I wouldn't say people forget as a lot of people don't have the extra capital to shop for soy vegan lates every morning for breakfast. These decisions are firmly in the realm of the political economics. Either cut off the product supply through embargoes or taxes or build a competing supply chain...
blizdiddy 5y ago
Yep, who needs foreign policy when we can buy different sneakers? Clearly shaming consumer habits will scale better. If we just all act without self-interest, there is really no problem!
- pjmlp 5y ago
  Start by being the change don't wait for it to happen.
earthscienceman 5y ago
smhenderson 5y ago
It's also become increasingly difficult, and in some cases nigh impossible, to avoid items from China. I'm older and don't need a lot beyond the food and shelter I work for, I have plenty of "stuff". But buying clothing, gifts, electronics, well, the list is long and I won't try to cover everything here, that doesn't have at least part of it's assembly provided by China is not easy to avoid. It's not just people's wallets, it's time, it's lack of knowledge and one's ability to figure out how to get what they need without involving China in the acquisition. I agree with you, but let's not pretend that we don't stop "buying from China" because we're all too lazy and greedy to do so. We could use some legislative and corporate support and I think a lot more people would get on board.
- syshum 5y ago
  It is hard if you want to say "Buy American" or something like that But I find it easy to avoid chinese products, for example I just recently was in the market for some cookware, I thought my choices were expensive American made pans, or cheap China, but in reality I found some very good cookware coming out of South America for very good price
- mrweasel 5y ago
  Clothing isn’t to bad, most is made in other countries, who are terrible in their own way. For stuff like electronics is impossible, it’s almost all made in China. The only solution I see it keeping stuff for longer or buying used.
  - ekianjo 5y ago
    Not all made per se, but assembled in China at least. china is not yet a powerhouse when it comes to manufacture top of the line SoCs for example.
  - throwaway2037 5y ago
    On a positive note, most modern electronics have a bunch of "bent metal", screws, and memory + microprocessors. The first two are very low value and frequently produced directly in China. The last two are high value and most frequently produced in Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, the United States, and various parts of Europe. When you look at the "value added" by assembly of an iPhone in China, it is astonishingly low. The vast majority of value (for hardware) is added outside of China.
alexfromapex 5y ago
This is mostly the fault of big box retail stores sourcing most of their merchandise in China. It will take consumers totally boycotting Chinese merchandise in order for them to stop ordering more stuff from China.
- pjmlp 5y ago
  Which is why consumers that care need to change their habits. This doesn't apply only to China sourced goods.
eitland 5y ago
> as most are quick to forget their morals when it hits their wallets. I realized the other day that if I saw a tray of "Made in China" utensils and a comparable tray of "Made in Africa/Europe/USA" utensils of roughly the same quality I'd happily pay a dollar or two extra, no questions asked for the ones that doesn't originate in China these days. I ended up not buying it at all since there was no alternative that was not made in China and I really wasn't in the mood for buying anything Chinese after their recent bullying of Lithuania. I am in the mood for buying something from Lithuania though, almost to the point of ordering a bag of fresh Lithuanian air for about $10 or $20 bucks just for the point of it if someone offers it.
- kgran 5y ago
  It seems that pure Lithuanian air cans are all sold out. As an alternative, you can buy Lithuanian cow dung in a can here: https://dovanusalis.lt/lietuviskas-karvutes-sudas-skardineje https://dovanusalis.lt/lietuviskas-karvutes-sudas-skardineje I couldn't see an English translation of the website, so you have to translate things or guess a little to navigate there.
  - eitland 5y ago
    I guess customs aren't too happy to allow cow dung across the borders, but otherwise this is brilliant: at the moment I want to buy Lithuanian cow dung more than buying anything from China :-)
- tadasv 5y ago
  Buy https://stores.balticvalue.com/products/electric-potato-grater-110-volt-to-canada-usa.html https://stores.balticvalue.com/products/electric-potato-grat... They ship it straight from lithuania. I got one recently myself. Made it Lithuania also. Then use this device to make Kugelis.
zelon88 5y ago
That's not going to do anything. In modern day, American companies have more to gain in China than they have to lose in the USA. The market they are chasing is 3 times larger than the US and the only "regulation" in sight is basically bribing local government. Don't be surprised if the companies you boycott simply move operations to China and cut ties with the US. China devalues its domestic currency on purpose so that oligarchs use the stronger American dollar as a vehicle. Once the companies move to China they can strengthen their domestic currency, shed the dollar, and then Americans will be making Ipads in factories with suicide nets and China will be sipping Starbucks wearing inexpensive "Made in USA" Apple watches
- foepys 5y ago
  This is completely ignoring the fact that China doesn't want foreign companies operating inside their borders unless they form a joint venture with a local Chinese owned company that owns >50%. China is also an authoritarian regime that does not care about laws if a company doesn't play ball. They will just be shut down. This doesn't sound like a good market to put all your trust into.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- TearsInTheRain 5y ago
  3x larger in people is not 3x larger in wealth. I think US and China are comparable in that regard. And I dont know if the opportunity going forward is so incredible given China's debt levels and impending population bust.
  - zelon88 5y ago
    You don't understand. China is in debt because the government wants to be in debt. They have to be to have population control. If there were no debt their population would have already busted. The oligarchs who rule China don't use Chinese currency. So they are not impacted by debt levels. China also doesn't promote their currency internationally as a means of keeping domestic purchasing power low. If you threaten China they will reverse these decisions and actually try to compete for quality of life. That's where western civilization as we know it ends. That's where the American empire falls and the Chinese empire rises.

bhouston 5y ago

> "Go kill whoever you need to get rid of so we can move on." Israel appears to be one of the Western nations where they are deepening ties and not bowing to US pressure to disengage: * http://www.news.cn/english/2021-11/17/c_1310316894.htm http://www.news.cn/english/2021-11/17/c_1310316894.htm * https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/06/16/us-israel-china-deals/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/06/16/us-israel-china-deals/ * https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/israel-not-expected-to-join-bizarre-u-s-boycott-of-winter-olympics-in-china-1.10448868 https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/israel-not-expected-to-j...

mpol 5y ago

If you allow me to throw in an idea, and please correct me if you see fit. In earlier times the Confucian pacifist ways of China were not up to the aggression of Western Europe, the US and Japan. In more recent times they learned to deal better with these foreign powers. The last thing they want is to give up their autonomy and culture and get run over by all these well meaning politicians that are very much after power anyway. The moslim communities might be seen as a threat to Chinese conformity since they often hold very tight their moslim culture. The same thing might be happening around Falun Dafa. I don't really know how it started, but where we are now, they might be seen as a threat as well, since they are now quite aggressive in their wordings towards the Chinese government.

mrweasel 5y ago
That makes perfect sense to me. What China fails to understand is that this approach have it’s own problem, in respect to their role in the world. It protects China and it’s culture, but makes it impossible for western nations to depend on the country.
sharklazer 5y ago
[flagged]
- dang 5y ago
  Posting this sort of hellish flamewar comment to HN will get you banned here, regardless of how right you are or feel you are, and regardless of which country you have a problem with. If you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting to HN, we'd appreciate it. You broke a ton of them here—seriously not cool.
  - sharklazer 5y ago
    Understood. I was going to delete it... then it got flagged. No excuse.

lvl100 5y ago

US fed the beast that is CCP and now the beast can’t be controlled. Do you fault the beast or the idiot who miscalculated and kept feeding the beast?

ceejayoz 5y ago
You blame both, since they're both sets of sentients capable of reason, not cats mesmerized by a laser pointer.
Layke1123 5y ago
I wonder if they would use the same dehumanizing terms back at us? What makes you want to refer to humans as "beasts", and why use the term "beast" in the first place? Do wild animals frighten you?
wolverine876 5y ago
The US has never supported the CCP. The US supported trade with China the country and with the people of China, and also their freedom and rights. The trade also benefitted the CCP. It's long been believed, and many times it's happened, that as countries grow middle classes they become democratic and free (Taiwan, South Korea, etc.). So far the CCP has forstalled that, but despite the trend in disparaging democracy (also in democracies, bizarrely), there's a long history showing that it wasn't a crazy idea and, despite recent setbacks, hardly impossible.

wyuenho 5y ago

It's not about culture. China has been interacting with the rest of the world for millennia. It's about mindset. It's about them not willing to let go of their chauvinistic imperial outlook they impart on themselves and to the world.

throw44532323 5y ago
- Quarrelsome 5y ago
  today, not the 19th century.
dang 5y ago
Nationalistic flamewar is not allowed on HN and posting this sort of nationalistic denunciation is not ok, regardless of which country you have a problem with. If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful.
- jerry_cto 5y ago
- wyuenho 5y ago
  But the parent is? Han Chauvinism actually is an academic topic you know. It's not any denunciation, it's a fact. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Han_chauvinism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Han_chauvinism
  - dang 5y ago
    The parent isn't ok either. I probably could, and maybe should, have posted the same scolding there. Your phrasing seemed marginally worse to me. Re "fact": it's of course good to be talking about facts as opposed to fantasies, but it's not sufficient for good discussion here. There are many other variables, including (1) which facts people select to talk about (there are infinitely many, after all), and (2) how they talk about them. Those things are choices, not facts. Past explanations here if anyone wants more: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&query=by%3Adang%20infinitely%20many%20facts&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...

api 5y ago

China is in the same position as Saudi Arabia. They have something the rest of the world needs so they can do anything they want. For China it’s cheap skilled labor. For Saudi it’s oil, gas, and loads of cash.

temp8964 5y ago

It's really not about "China". It's all about CCP. It's also not the CCP doesn't care. The CCP does care about its international image. But it's making choice between domestic control and international image. It's obvious to CCP right now that the world is heavily rely on China's market and manufacturing power. So the CCP can use it to suppress any backlash, and do terrible things domestically. The whole HK affair has firmly proved that the western world can't do anything to it. Invading Taiwan is definitely in its calculation.

Shadonototra 5y ago

> and basically only survives on other cultures being either extremely flexible or completely dependent on China for manufacturing (or both). yeah, china only exist since 1940, it's a known fact ;) > We're basically just waiting for companies to pull manufacturing from China, because they can deal with the backlash at home for ever, or some western leader to snap and just tell China to "Go kill whoever you need to get rid of so we can move on". the west is just waiting to make more profit from its own people, if that means building their factory in china and destroying jobs, families and lives, they'll do it in the meantime China is already on the far side of the moon and is about to land on the moon with its bases -- if we want to improve our society, we must stop being blind and repeat what ever propaganda we hear in the west about China China is doing exactly what we are doing, if you mad at china, be mad at yourself for building this society China eradicated extreme poverty in its country, what the west did to its people? the US still doesn't have universal healthcare between the 2 model of society, China's is looking more human and is willing to advance humankind more i'd rather empower China than what ever the English block is trying to do ;)

splitstud 5y ago
Supply chains are already moving from China as fast as possible. Access to western markets will disappear. No amount of rhetoric will change this.

tomtung 5y ago

> China also don't care to understand the west one bit. China has zero cultural understand about anything beyond its borders Well, consider how many people in China have learned English, can read articles / online discussions in English, or have traveled to the west. Contrast that to the number of westerners who can read Chinese or have been to China. China surely understands the west a lot better than the other way around. It just disagrees and has its own interests to look after.