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Quoting the Amnesty article: > Official Qatari statistics show that over 15,021 non-Qataris – of all ages and occupations – died between 2010 and 2019 I think

Quoting the Amnesty article: > Official Qatari statistics show that over 15,021 non-Qataris – of all ages and occupations – died between 2010 and 2019 I think it's worth putting the number into context. There's 2,300,000 non-Qataris in Qatar. 1,670 deaths per year puts the mortality rate at 0.72 per year per 1000 people. That's 10 times lower than the global mortality rate as of 2020.

kickling 5y ago
If you look at the work related death rate among workers in the US the number is 0.035 per 1000 people. So if the deaths are work related, it is a huge number compared to the US at least. [https://www.bls.gov/news.release/cfoi.nr0.htm https://www.bls.gov/news.release/cfoi.nr0.htm]
- djrockstar1 5y ago
  If we assume 100% of deaths over this 9 year period work workplace accidents, then yes, this number is alarming. However there's just no way that all of those deaths were work related. We can't know the true number, since there's a lack of trust towards the number provided by the Qatari Government. In the U.S. there were 2,854,838 deaths [1]. The report you linked claims 5,333 of those deaths were work-related. That means 0.18% of deaths in the US in 2019 were not work related. Now I concede that the U.S. has much better workplace safety guidelines, with OSHA and the like, compared to less developed nations. So that percentage would surely be much higher in Qatar, but how much higher? If we assume that 5% of deaths were work related in Qatar, then that 0.72 overall mortality rate becomes 0.036 per 1000 people, same as the US, with its much better workplace safety guidelines, while assuming a 29x greater percent of deaths being workplace related. [1] https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr70/nvsr70-08-508.pdf https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr70/nvsr70-08-508.pdf
  - hluska 5y ago
    Yes, there’s no way to know if those deaths are work related because Qatar’s government, despite its modern health care cannot figure out a cause of death for all their migrants. It’s even harder to know if these deaths are work related because Qatar has a verified history of arresting journalists and deleting the interviews where they try to find out the truth. Does any of that strike you as a problem? Or heck, do you ever think that Amnesty International is better equipped to make statements than you are?
  - juki 5y ago
    You're forgetting that those non-Qataris are almost all migrant workers, so the population is extremely skewed towards relatively healthy 20-50 year old men. Also, people aren't just worried about directly work related deaths, but about bad living conditions in general. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Qatar https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Qatar
kzrdude 5y ago
It looks like modern slavery. Labor rights nonexistent. Many of the dead are denied autopsy or a real explanation of their death, leading to possibilities of covering up the true cause of death. Given other factors, that's an extremely serious problem. See link [1]. Pragmatically (and very generously, in the situation) speaking, with no "positive feedback loop", no oversight, how can societies improve? Investigate the deaths and find ways improve the situation. I'm not saying it's exactly like slavery, but with no transparency I don't want to be part of rationalising it and letting it pass unnoticed as if we didn't see it. [1]: https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2021/08/qatar-failure-to-investigate-migrant-worker-deaths-leaves-families-in-despair/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2021/08/qatar-failure...
- djrockstar1 5y ago
  The Kafala System that was in use in Qatar until 2016 was indeed modern slavery. Workers had their passports taken, and couldn't travel or change jobs without explicit permission from their employers. Living in Qatar I've experience first hand how people were exploited, dealing with delayed salaries, sometimes taking on second jobs, sending a majority of their income back home every month. However I would say that things have improved significantly, and are continuing to improve. You speak of a lack of oversight, but the fact that we're in this thread discussing this issue means that there must be some oversight. From international bodies to individual journalists there's many people concerned about labour rights, and these concerns aren't something the Qatari government can just ignore, as evidenced by the numerous labour reforms.
hluska 5y ago
And yet another human rights expert who is defending slavery. Good thinking.
- djrockstar1 5y ago
  I'm no human rights expert and nor am I trying to defend slavery. I'm just combatting the insane about of FUD that exists around basically any country in the middle east, specially on forums that are comprised of mostly western people.
  - hluska 5y ago
    It’s obvious you’re not a human rights expert. The thing is, the people at Amnesty International are human rights experts. They see an obvious problem and you’re doing gymnastics to convince everyone the problem doesn’t exist. That’s a problem. You’re ignoring actual experts and spreading misinformation and now lies.
    - justinclift 5y ago
      > You’re ignoring actual experts and spreading misinformation and now lies. Your responses to the commenter above (across a few threads) are sounding hysterical. I'm not sure why. :( At least they seem to be trying to work out the numbers and thing for themselves, and are looking for external sources for information to work with.
    - Veen 5y ago
      If you're going to effectively combat human rights violations and modern slavery, it's better to do it with facts and accurate statistics, rather than easily refuted figures. The Qatari government can make exactly the same (reasonable) points that commenters here are—a weak case makes it easy for guilty parties to evade responsibility. Pointing out flaws in critical reports is not "defending human rights violations," it's highlighting weaknesses in the case, which helps people to make a stronger case. (Plus, something isn't right and true just because Amnesty says it.)
  - kingcharles 5y ago
AvocadoCake 5y ago
It's not reasonable to compare the mortality rate of working people to the global average across ages, disabilities, etc.
IshKebab 5y ago
Probably makes more sense to compare it to Qataris with the same ages, if those figures are available.

kickling 5y ago

If you look at the work related death rate among workers in the US the number is 0.035 per 1000 people. So if the deaths are work related, it is a huge number compared to the US at least. [https://www.bls.gov/news.release/cfoi.nr0.htm https://www.bls.gov/news.release/cfoi.nr0.htm]

djrockstar1 5y ago
If we assume 100% of deaths over this 9 year period work workplace accidents, then yes, this number is alarming. However there's just no way that all of those deaths were work related. We can't know the true number, since there's a lack of trust towards the number provided by the Qatari Government. In the U.S. there were 2,854,838 deaths [1]. The report you linked claims 5,333 of those deaths were work-related. That means 0.18% of deaths in the US in 2019 were not work related. Now I concede that the U.S. has much better workplace safety guidelines, with OSHA and the like, compared to less developed nations. So that percentage would surely be much higher in Qatar, but how much higher? If we assume that 5% of deaths were work related in Qatar, then that 0.72 overall mortality rate becomes 0.036 per 1000 people, same as the US, with its much better workplace safety guidelines, while assuming a 29x greater percent of deaths being workplace related. [1] https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr70/nvsr70-08-508.pdf https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr70/nvsr70-08-508.pdf
- hluska 5y ago
  Yes, there’s no way to know if those deaths are work related because Qatar’s government, despite its modern health care cannot figure out a cause of death for all their migrants. It’s even harder to know if these deaths are work related because Qatar has a verified history of arresting journalists and deleting the interviews where they try to find out the truth. Does any of that strike you as a problem? Or heck, do you ever think that Amnesty International is better equipped to make statements than you are?
- juki 5y ago
  You're forgetting that those non-Qataris are almost all migrant workers, so the population is extremely skewed towards relatively healthy 20-50 year old men. Also, people aren't just worried about directly work related deaths, but about bad living conditions in general. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Qatar https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Qatar

kzrdude 5y ago

It looks like modern slavery. Labor rights nonexistent. Many of the dead are denied autopsy or a real explanation of their death, leading to possibilities of covering up the true cause of death. Given other factors, that's an extremely serious problem. See link [1]. Pragmatically (and very generously, in the situation) speaking, with no "positive feedback loop", no oversight, how can societies improve? Investigate the deaths and find ways improve the situation. I'm not saying it's exactly like slavery, but with no transparency I don't want to be part of rationalising it and letting it pass unnoticed as if we didn't see it. [1]: https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2021/08/qatar-failure-to-investigate-migrant-worker-deaths-leaves-families-in-despair/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2021/08/qatar-failure...

djrockstar1 5y ago
The Kafala System that was in use in Qatar until 2016 was indeed modern slavery. Workers had their passports taken, and couldn't travel or change jobs without explicit permission from their employers. Living in Qatar I've experience first hand how people were exploited, dealing with delayed salaries, sometimes taking on second jobs, sending a majority of their income back home every month. However I would say that things have improved significantly, and are continuing to improve. You speak of a lack of oversight, but the fact that we're in this thread discussing this issue means that there must be some oversight. From international bodies to individual journalists there's many people concerned about labour rights, and these concerns aren't something the Qatari government can just ignore, as evidenced by the numerous labour reforms.

hluska 5y ago

And yet another human rights expert who is defending slavery. Good thinking.

djrockstar1 5y ago
I'm no human rights expert and nor am I trying to defend slavery. I'm just combatting the insane about of FUD that exists around basically any country in the middle east, specially on forums that are comprised of mostly western people.
- hluska 5y ago
  It’s obvious you’re not a human rights expert. The thing is, the people at Amnesty International are human rights experts. They see an obvious problem and you’re doing gymnastics to convince everyone the problem doesn’t exist. That’s a problem. You’re ignoring actual experts and spreading misinformation and now lies.
  - justinclift 5y ago
    > You’re ignoring actual experts and spreading misinformation and now lies. Your responses to the commenter above (across a few threads) are sounding hysterical. I'm not sure why. :( At least they seem to be trying to work out the numbers and thing for themselves, and are looking for external sources for information to work with.
  - Veen 5y ago
    If you're going to effectively combat human rights violations and modern slavery, it's better to do it with facts and accurate statistics, rather than easily refuted figures. The Qatari government can make exactly the same (reasonable) points that commenters here are—a weak case makes it easy for guilty parties to evade responsibility. Pointing out flaws in critical reports is not "defending human rights violations," it's highlighting weaknesses in the case, which helps people to make a stronger case. (Plus, something isn't right and true just because Amnesty says it.)
- kingcharles 5y ago

AvocadoCake 5y ago

It's not reasonable to compare the mortality rate of working people to the global average across ages, disabilities, etc.

IshKebab 5y ago

Probably makes more sense to compare it to Qataris with the same ages, if those figures are available.