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Should we demand that companies avoid California suppliers as well because of the extensive use of prison labor: https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-

Should we demand that companies avoid California suppliers as well because of the extensive use of prison labor: https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-10-11/california-prison-factories-inmates-covid-19 https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-10-11/californ... https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/policing/2020/11/11/california-wildfires-raged-incarcerated-exploited-labor-column/6249201002/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/policing/2020/11/11/c... https://www.freedomunited.org/news/forced-prison-labor-in-california-continues-during-coronavirus/ https://www.freedomunited.org/news/forced-prison-labor-in-ca...

albertopv 5y ago
Yes. USA prison system is really awful, even more for a first world country, richiest country in the world.
christkv 5y ago
yes
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
Loic 5y ago
Definitely! Human rights are the same for all humans.
- jollybean 5y ago
  You do not have a 'human right' to commit crimes, which is why you go to jail in nations that have a legit Justice System. The concentration camps in China are not for people who have committed crimes, they're for people who are of a specific ethnicity, that's it.
  - Loic 5y ago
    My comment refers to the specific abuse with forced slave work conditions for the jailed population in California. Nothing more.
    - jollybean 5y ago
      There are no slave working conditions for prisons in California.
  - dennis_system 5y ago
    [flagged]
- aetherspawn 5y ago
  But not for criminals in prison (think about it).
pjbeam 5y ago
Definitely
vkou 5y ago
It wouldn't hurt.
ngc248 5y ago
Is it slave labour, I mean are they being forced to do it and not being paid for it, then sure boycott it. If NOT, and if it is an avenue for prisoners to earn money, benefits, then don't boycott it
- olliej 5y ago
  The problem is that privately run prisons require prisoners to pay for things that are realistically necessary despite not being legally mandated. They overcharge more than airports, and pay next to nothing. They suffer because of it, and non-prisoners suffer as well, as they're competing with what is functionally slave labour.
  - ngc248 5y ago
    True, i agree with your point on private prisons. Anything for profit will skew the everything towards that which makes more profit
- nichtich 5y ago
  Once you are already in prison it's hard to say whether you are forced to do it or not. It's not like you have a lot of employers and professions to choose from. And if the incentives include things like easier to get parole then refusing to participate would mean more time served. It'd be pretty hard to prove some labor is not "forced" in a prison setting.
  - Dylan16807 5y ago
    > And if the incentives include things like easier to get parole then refusing to participate would mean more time served. So what? That's just serving the original sentence. That doesn't sound forced to me. Is it forced labor when someone chooses to take a community service option instead of being locked up?
    - breakfastduck 5y ago
      Yes of course it is. You're being forced to do it or end up in prison. How is that not forced? It's essentially a choice between 1 option at that point.
olliej 5y ago
yes? Prison labour is fundamentally slave labour, especially in the US. The US prison system expanded massively after slavery was made illegal, especially privately run for profit businesses that are allowed to sell prisoners as laborers for below real market rates.
mike_d 5y ago
In the United States prisoners are required to participate in "work duties," which are defined as essential functions of the prison. For example you can be made to wash laundry because you are using bed sheets and clothing. You cannot be forced into doing external work where the benefit of your labor falls to a private entity. Of course you can choose to do so and the primary benefit is not the wages (which are unfairly low in my opinion) but the "day for day" that reduces your sentence.
- simonh 5y ago
  The wages are paltry yes, but as I understand it US prisons charge absurdly high rates for basic services such as phone calls and even individual emails, so there's a very coercive incentive on prisoners to work anyway.
- ncmncm 5y ago
  That is just so far from true it is hard to understand why you believe it. There are states that have such rules, and others (particularly in the South) that explicitly do not enforce any such rule. Often a rule exists but is meaningless; if they want to be able to have visitors, or to get outside to exercise, they are obliged to engage with outside labor.
Taniwha 5y ago
Well the US constitution explicitly allows slavery in this particular case, why not?
jollybean 5y ago
China has a Justice System, and most people are in prison for crimes. China does not have a Justice System - it's entirely politicized (people are put to death in private trials with fabricated evidence), but even then, we are not banning stuff 'because Chinese prison'. We are banning specifically from concentration camps where 100's of thousands of Uyghurs are imprisoned not for any crime, but merely because of their ethnicity. So if Cali started taking Japanese citizens property, throwing them in jail, and forcing them to work and to 'retrain their thinking' i.e. even worse than what happened to some in WW2, then we could start to talk about moral equivalence.
- samus 5y ago
  I think the first paragraph should be fixed. Slightly contradicts the rest of the comment, no? ;-)
  - jollybean 5y ago
    Sorry, meant to say 'Modern Nations' have Justice Systems.
cletus 5y ago
Prison labour is the unfortunate exception to the Thirteenth Amendment that allowed effective slavery to continue. The whole system is corrupt. It allows prisons to pay prisoners peanuts (~25 cents/hour) and pocket the difference giving an economic incentive to incarceration and an unfair competitive advantage with people who can't choose not to work because doing so will generally extend their sentence. But you know the difference? I can say that without it being taken down by the government or some company acting on their behalf. I can say it without it hurting my "social credit score". I can say it without being "disappeared" and ending up in one of the sprawling "re-education" camps in Xianjing that are so prevalent you can track their massive growth on Google Maps. There is clearly an organized effort to extinguish a people and culture here, just like it has been and is in Tibet. Given the history of this sort of thing, it's astounding to me how many will defend, deflect or deny this. Every time a valid criticism of the CCP comes up some shill pops up and downvotes any criticism and/or leaves some "but what about X" lame justification. It's actually depressing.
- ncmncm 5y ago
  Chinese treatment of underclass people is evil. US treatment of underclass people is evil. The statements are not in conflict. We have much less excuse for permitting our own evils, because we could put a stop to ours if we cared.

albertopv 5y ago

Yes. USA prison system is really awful, even more for a first world country, richiest country in the world.

christkv 5y ago

yes

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

Loic 5y ago

Definitely! Human rights are the same for all humans.

jollybean 5y ago
You do not have a 'human right' to commit crimes, which is why you go to jail in nations that have a legit Justice System. The concentration camps in China are not for people who have committed crimes, they're for people who are of a specific ethnicity, that's it.
- Loic 5y ago
  My comment refers to the specific abuse with forced slave work conditions for the jailed population in California. Nothing more.
  - jollybean 5y ago
    There are no slave working conditions for prisons in California.
- dennis_system 5y ago
  [flagged]
aetherspawn 5y ago
But not for criminals in prison (think about it).

pjbeam 5y ago

Definitely

vkou 5y ago

It wouldn't hurt.

ngc248 5y ago

Is it slave labour, I mean are they being forced to do it and not being paid for it, then sure boycott it. If NOT, and if it is an avenue for prisoners to earn money, benefits, then don't boycott it

olliej 5y ago
The problem is that privately run prisons require prisoners to pay for things that are realistically necessary despite not being legally mandated. They overcharge more than airports, and pay next to nothing. They suffer because of it, and non-prisoners suffer as well, as they're competing with what is functionally slave labour.
- ngc248 5y ago
  True, i agree with your point on private prisons. Anything for profit will skew the everything towards that which makes more profit
nichtich 5y ago
Once you are already in prison it's hard to say whether you are forced to do it or not. It's not like you have a lot of employers and professions to choose from. And if the incentives include things like easier to get parole then refusing to participate would mean more time served. It'd be pretty hard to prove some labor is not "forced" in a prison setting.
- Dylan16807 5y ago
  > And if the incentives include things like easier to get parole then refusing to participate would mean more time served. So what? That's just serving the original sentence. That doesn't sound forced to me. Is it forced labor when someone chooses to take a community service option instead of being locked up?
  - breakfastduck 5y ago
    Yes of course it is. You're being forced to do it or end up in prison. How is that not forced? It's essentially a choice between 1 option at that point.

olliej 5y ago

yes? Prison labour is fundamentally slave labour, especially in the US. The US prison system expanded massively after slavery was made illegal, especially privately run for profit businesses that are allowed to sell prisoners as laborers for below real market rates.

mike_d 5y ago

In the United States prisoners are required to participate in "work duties," which are defined as essential functions of the prison. For example you can be made to wash laundry because you are using bed sheets and clothing. You cannot be forced into doing external work where the benefit of your labor falls to a private entity. Of course you can choose to do so and the primary benefit is not the wages (which are unfairly low in my opinion) but the "day for day" that reduces your sentence.

simonh 5y ago
The wages are paltry yes, but as I understand it US prisons charge absurdly high rates for basic services such as phone calls and even individual emails, so there's a very coercive incentive on prisoners to work anyway.
ncmncm 5y ago
That is just so far from true it is hard to understand why you believe it. There are states that have such rules, and others (particularly in the South) that explicitly do not enforce any such rule. Often a rule exists but is meaningless; if they want to be able to have visitors, or to get outside to exercise, they are obliged to engage with outside labor.

Taniwha 5y ago

Well the US constitution explicitly allows slavery in this particular case, why not?

jollybean 5y ago

China has a Justice System, and most people are in prison for crimes. China does not have a Justice System - it's entirely politicized (people are put to death in private trials with fabricated evidence), but even then, we are not banning stuff 'because Chinese prison'. We are banning specifically from concentration camps where 100's of thousands of Uyghurs are imprisoned not for any crime, but merely because of their ethnicity. So if Cali started taking Japanese citizens property, throwing them in jail, and forcing them to work and to 'retrain their thinking' i.e. even worse than what happened to some in WW2, then we could start to talk about moral equivalence.

samus 5y ago
I think the first paragraph should be fixed. Slightly contradicts the rest of the comment, no? ;-)
- jollybean 5y ago
  Sorry, meant to say 'Modern Nations' have Justice Systems.

cletus 5y ago

Prison labour is the unfortunate exception to the Thirteenth Amendment that allowed effective slavery to continue. The whole system is corrupt. It allows prisons to pay prisoners peanuts (~25 cents/hour) and pocket the difference giving an economic incentive to incarceration and an unfair competitive advantage with people who can't choose not to work because doing so will generally extend their sentence. But you know the difference? I can say that without it being taken down by the government or some company acting on their behalf. I can say it without it hurting my "social credit score". I can say it without being "disappeared" and ending up in one of the sprawling "re-education" camps in Xianjing that are so prevalent you can track their massive growth on Google Maps. There is clearly an organized effort to extinguish a people and culture here, just like it has been and is in Tibet. Given the history of this sort of thing, it's astounding to me how many will defend, deflect or deny this. Every time a valid criticism of the CCP comes up some shill pops up and downvotes any criticism and/or leaves some "but what about X" lame justification. It's actually depressing.

ncmncm 5y ago
Chinese treatment of underclass people is evil. US treatment of underclass people is evil. The statements are not in conflict. We have much less excuse for permitting our own evils, because we could put a stop to ours if we cared.