8 ms·

Fresh in-pouring of victims to sustain the whole thing, while some bigger players benefit. Im sorry, I don't want to argue anymore with crypto advocates. There

by foxes 5y ago

Fresh in-pouring of victims to sustain the whole thing, while some bigger players benefit. Im sorry, I don't want to argue anymore with crypto advocates. There is no more rational discussion to possibly be had about any of the current contenders in this space. The whole thing needs to be pulled apart. Just because some people earn money from it, doesn't make it moral, a good idea , useful, or bettering human society. Oil companies also make a lot of money and we can see where that has ended up.

arbuge 5y ago
The comparison to oil isn't quite fair to oil. Oil has a lot of negative side effects, to be clear, but the benefits to society from the use of oil include pretty much all the things we depend on for modern civilization. That is why replacing oil with renewables is going to be such a challenge. When it comes to crypto, on the other hand, I think the challenge would be listing any real benefits to begin with.
- LatteLazy 5y ago
  I'm not sure whether crypto is a good or bad thing overall but there are plenty of good uses for it: * In countries with unstable currencies they are useful stores of value (Venezuela, Turkey and Zimbabwe right now). I was in Zim back in 2010 and visited someone's house. It was filled with petrol because he had been paid and had to spend the money before it lost its value so he bought what was available. Bitcoin would have been a lot safer and less likely to cause shortages of goods (and more inflation). * They offer a much cheaper and simpler way to move money between countries both for ordinary people and small businesses. * By making online retail anonymous they've allowed the circumvention of all sorts of prohibitions. Sometimes that might be a bad thing, but I think it's a part of the reason we've seen weed legalised in so many US states. And remember: we don't ban things because you or I don't see the point. If someone else thinks they see a point, and they're not hurting anyone, they have every right to pursue what interests them
  - jdub 5y ago
    Climate-destroying techno-libertarian accelerationists will hurt everyone.
  - jmull 5y ago
    > we don't ban things because you or I don't see the point We do see the point, though: to scam people out of money.
    - DarkWiiPlayer 5y ago
      Then let's ban gift cards first, because those get used for scamming as well and I don't really see the point in them in the first place, other than making money.
      - jmull 5y ago
        Gift cards have mainly legitimate uses. Here it's different: The main point is to scam people out of money.
  - yosito 5y ago
    > In countries with unstable currencies they are useful stores of value (Venezuela, Turkey and Zimbabwe right now) Also, Cuba and Argentina. While Bitcoin may be more accessible to people in these countries, they could also store value in USD, or other stable assets. > By making online retail anonymous I really don't understand the persistent myth that blockchains are anonymous.
    - LatteLazy 5y ago
      Blockchain is anonymous if you use it correctly I believe (don't reuse wallets, launder you coins etc) but you're right that the vast majority of people don't do that as far as I'm aware. Full disclosure: I've never actually done it either and I'm no expert...
      - tonfreed 5y ago
- captainmuon 5y ago
  You have to distinguish between absolute benefits, and benefits in our current society. I also think absolute or real benefits are very slim, but there are certain motivations for it today: In our current society, one "benefit" is that you can use it to buy drugs anonymously. I would argue for some soft drugs like cannabis, that is a good thing. But even better to just legalize it - then you can get the benefits of regulation (harder for people to slide into heavier drugs, you have a bit more control over consumption, you can tax it...). Another benefit is that you could take your money that you earn in your day job and funnel it into activism. In many countries, there are a lot of scary political developments, combined with a growing surveillance state. Crypto can help that you are not cut off critical resources if you are a dissident. Finally, I wouldn't dismiss the aspect that it promises you to "get rich quickly". We have a very stratified society, where most people are individual laborers, and only a few are successful entrepreneurs and employers. Yes, in silicon valley you can earn a lot even as an IC, and there are many stories of successful founders. But to be honest, the way to the financial elite, the "ruling class", is barred for 99% of people, even for the most talented. A lot of people in tech probably find this unjust, and I can really relate to this feeling. But most would never question the system as a whole. Instead of trying to completely change society, we look for a literal hack or cheat, and crypto is this hack. It is the nerds' revenge, and we phantasize it will allow us to get what is our due.
elvatoloco123 5y ago
Crypto=/= Bitcoin Bitcoin offers a decentralized, supply capped alternative to central banking. If this seems useful to you, use it, if it doesn't, don't use it. Simple as that. Currently people find the ability to have unconfiscatable money attractive.
- meragrin_ 5y ago
  How is Bitcoin unconfiscatable? Just confiscate all wallets. If they are encrypted in some way, they would still be inaccessible to the person. If they can be recreated, the person can be monitored to determine how to recreate the wallet and then be drained.
  - CryptoPunk 5y ago
    A person can hide the fact that they have a wallet. Confiscating information, that can be stored as a secret passphrase in your brain, is extremely difficult.
    - meragrin_ 5y ago
      > Confiscating information, that can be stored as a secret passphrase in your brain, is extremely difficult. >> If they can be recreated, the person can be monitored to determine how to recreate the wallet and then be drained. Being unable to use the Bitcoin is the same as confiscating it.
      - CryptoPunk 5y ago
        Being unable to use it, when you have access to encrypted communication, not to mention other countries where it is legal?
    - yesbut 5y ago
      the CIA figured out how to extract passphrases from people's brains decades ago.
lai-yin 5y ago
Oil and natural gas have lifted billions of people out of generational poverty. It wouldn't be possible for you to type that comment on your computer or laptop and post it to Hacker News without their existence. When I got into Bitcoin I wasn't a "victim" and I'm still not one. Maybe you're the victim of your own preconceived notions.
- 400thecat 5y ago
  Agree completely with the first paragraph. As for the second part, eventually when bitcoin crashes, there will be lots of victims.
sixQuarks 5y ago
you have let Your emotions take over And are blind to everything. Please explain Why is gold not a Ponzi scheme?
anovikov 5y ago
Well, if crypto is meant to be used as a method of investment, then sorry, nothing which does not generate rent can be a viable method of investment (can sometimes be a method of preserving wealth e.g. gold but even that barely). In this sense, i agree with you. But crypto is also very useful for undermining governments - making them unnecessary. Which is a beneficial thing for all humankind. Whenever government realises it is not necessary and can be circumvented with no way to fight back - it becomes more flexible (example: legalisation of weed). Crypto makes the world more free. Freedom is a universal value.
- brightstep 5y ago
  Governments could destroy crypto if they wanted. See China as the most obvious example. A novel technology doesn't stand much of a chance against men with guns.
  - ashwagary 5y ago
    They can't destroy it, a lot of miners in China continue mining using vpns and proxies.
    - anovikov 5y ago
      Well, you can't mine using VPN or proxy because you can't conceal multi-megawatt power consumption that it takes. Prohibition of mining is simply about consumption of electricity which suddenly became in short supply. Crypto is not banned in China and it is not bannable. Mining of course, is.
      - ashwagary 5y ago
        You can absolutely conceal energy usage, especially in places where large scale manufacturing takes place.
  - thereyet 5y ago
fsflover 5y ago
Crypto helps people in semi-totalitarian regimes to not depend on inflation and be independent on the governments with transactions.
- 400thecat 5y ago
  nobody uses bitcoin for transaction anymore It has become pure speculation vehicle
  - thereyet 5y ago
helloworld11 5y ago
Since you categorically state that "the whole thing needs to be pulled apart" and attribute all sorts of evils to what is essentially just an open cryptographic protocol that anyone can freely use or not use as they please, I'd say it's you who is more closely edging towards being unable to rationally discuss bitcoin. Many things can be arbitrarily defined as bad ideas without having to be banned and something doesn't need to "better human society" (according to your definition of how that's decided no less) in order to have legitimate reasons for existing.
- tarboreus 5y ago
  Agreed. Let's get rid of ice cream next. I find I don't like the flavor, it uses a lot of CO2 to create, and it has some negative side effects. I also hate how people are big ice cream boosters, how annoying. Also people are making money from selling ice cream. I'm not making money that way, and don't think other people should, either.
sabellito 5y ago
I don't care about crypto. You comment seems to amount to "I won't argue because you're not rational. The thing you believe in is awful and should cease to exist". Please reconsider.
- Devasta 5y ago
  "I won't argue because you're not rational. The thing you believe in is awful and should cease to exist" is a perfectly fine stance to have about bitcoin and crypto in general. Its causing massive amounts of pollution, global spikes in price of computer parts, exacerbates shortages in silicon and facilitates all sorts of illegal activity from money laundering to ponzi schemes to trading of illegal goods. And for what? The shittiest database you could imagine.
  - sabellito 5y ago
    My criticism on the original comment is not about his take on crypto, it is about taking that stance about quite literally anything. If one refuses to argue because they believe the other side is irrational, then abstain for conversation instead of just name-calling/shitting on the thing on a public forum. This is somewhat equivalent to posting some egregious opinion and then saying "don't @ me".
    - Devasta 5y ago
      You're assuming a level of good faith in crypto bros that frankly doesn't exist. They aren't interested in any criticism of bitcoin and the like, they personally stand to make money from it and you are just their next potential victim.
      - sabellito 5y ago
        I take the dismissive stance you're talking about when dealing with anti-vax, flatearthers, and qanon types. I'm not above that. Having said that, my original point is the same: then don't engage at all. I don't go posting on flatearther forums how "i won't argue and that their opinion is stupid". I either fully engage and endure what I perceive to be unbelievable stupidity, or don't engage at all.

by foxes 5y ago

arbuge 5y ago

The comparison to oil isn't quite fair to oil. Oil has a lot of negative side effects, to be clear, but the benefits to society from the use of oil include pretty much all the things we depend on for modern civilization. That is why replacing oil with renewables is going to be such a challenge. When it comes to crypto, on the other hand, I think the challenge would be listing any real benefits to begin with.

LatteLazy 5y ago
I'm not sure whether crypto is a good or bad thing overall but there are plenty of good uses for it: * In countries with unstable currencies they are useful stores of value (Venezuela, Turkey and Zimbabwe right now). I was in Zim back in 2010 and visited someone's house. It was filled with petrol because he had been paid and had to spend the money before it lost its value so he bought what was available. Bitcoin would have been a lot safer and less likely to cause shortages of goods (and more inflation). * They offer a much cheaper and simpler way to move money between countries both for ordinary people and small businesses. * By making online retail anonymous they've allowed the circumvention of all sorts of prohibitions. Sometimes that might be a bad thing, but I think it's a part of the reason we've seen weed legalised in so many US states. And remember: we don't ban things because you or I don't see the point. If someone else thinks they see a point, and they're not hurting anyone, they have every right to pursue what interests them
- jdub 5y ago
  Climate-destroying techno-libertarian accelerationists will hurt everyone.
- jmull 5y ago
  > we don't ban things because you or I don't see the point We do see the point, though: to scam people out of money.
  - DarkWiiPlayer 5y ago
    Then let's ban gift cards first, because those get used for scamming as well and I don't really see the point in them in the first place, other than making money.
    - jmull 5y ago
      Gift cards have mainly legitimate uses. Here it's different: The main point is to scam people out of money.
- yosito 5y ago
  > In countries with unstable currencies they are useful stores of value (Venezuela, Turkey and Zimbabwe right now) Also, Cuba and Argentina. While Bitcoin may be more accessible to people in these countries, they could also store value in USD, or other stable assets. > By making online retail anonymous I really don't understand the persistent myth that blockchains are anonymous.
  - LatteLazy 5y ago
    Blockchain is anonymous if you use it correctly I believe (don't reuse wallets, launder you coins etc) but you're right that the vast majority of people don't do that as far as I'm aware. Full disclosure: I've never actually done it either and I'm no expert...
    - tonfreed 5y ago
captainmuon 5y ago
You have to distinguish between absolute benefits, and benefits in our current society. I also think absolute or real benefits are very slim, but there are certain motivations for it today: In our current society, one "benefit" is that you can use it to buy drugs anonymously. I would argue for some soft drugs like cannabis, that is a good thing. But even better to just legalize it - then you can get the benefits of regulation (harder for people to slide into heavier drugs, you have a bit more control over consumption, you can tax it...). Another benefit is that you could take your money that you earn in your day job and funnel it into activism. In many countries, there are a lot of scary political developments, combined with a growing surveillance state. Crypto can help that you are not cut off critical resources if you are a dissident. Finally, I wouldn't dismiss the aspect that it promises you to "get rich quickly". We have a very stratified society, where most people are individual laborers, and only a few are successful entrepreneurs and employers. Yes, in silicon valley you can earn a lot even as an IC, and there are many stories of successful founders. But to be honest, the way to the financial elite, the "ruling class", is barred for 99% of people, even for the most talented. A lot of people in tech probably find this unjust, and I can really relate to this feeling. But most would never question the system as a whole. Instead of trying to completely change society, we look for a literal hack or cheat, and crypto is this hack. It is the nerds' revenge, and we phantasize it will allow us to get what is our due.

elvatoloco123 5y ago

Crypto=/= Bitcoin Bitcoin offers a decentralized, supply capped alternative to central banking. If this seems useful to you, use it, if it doesn't, don't use it. Simple as that. Currently people find the ability to have unconfiscatable money attractive.

meragrin_ 5y ago
How is Bitcoin unconfiscatable? Just confiscate all wallets. If they are encrypted in some way, they would still be inaccessible to the person. If they can be recreated, the person can be monitored to determine how to recreate the wallet and then be drained.
- CryptoPunk 5y ago
  A person can hide the fact that they have a wallet. Confiscating information, that can be stored as a secret passphrase in your brain, is extremely difficult.
  - meragrin_ 5y ago
    > Confiscating information, that can be stored as a secret passphrase in your brain, is extremely difficult. >> If they can be recreated, the person can be monitored to determine how to recreate the wallet and then be drained. Being unable to use the Bitcoin is the same as confiscating it.
    - CryptoPunk 5y ago
      Being unable to use it, when you have access to encrypted communication, not to mention other countries where it is legal?
  - yesbut 5y ago
    the CIA figured out how to extract passphrases from people's brains decades ago.

lai-yin 5y ago

Oil and natural gas have lifted billions of people out of generational poverty. It wouldn't be possible for you to type that comment on your computer or laptop and post it to Hacker News without their existence. When I got into Bitcoin I wasn't a "victim" and I'm still not one. Maybe you're the victim of your own preconceived notions.

400thecat 5y ago
Agree completely with the first paragraph. As for the second part, eventually when bitcoin crashes, there will be lots of victims.

sixQuarks 5y ago

you have let Your emotions take over And are blind to everything. Please explain Why is gold not a Ponzi scheme?

anovikov 5y ago

Well, if crypto is meant to be used as a method of investment, then sorry, nothing which does not generate rent can be a viable method of investment (can sometimes be a method of preserving wealth e.g. gold but even that barely). In this sense, i agree with you. But crypto is also very useful for undermining governments - making them unnecessary. Which is a beneficial thing for all humankind. Whenever government realises it is not necessary and can be circumvented with no way to fight back - it becomes more flexible (example: legalisation of weed). Crypto makes the world more free. Freedom is a universal value.

brightstep 5y ago
Governments could destroy crypto if they wanted. See China as the most obvious example. A novel technology doesn't stand much of a chance against men with guns.
- ashwagary 5y ago
  They can't destroy it, a lot of miners in China continue mining using vpns and proxies.
  - anovikov 5y ago
    Well, you can't mine using VPN or proxy because you can't conceal multi-megawatt power consumption that it takes. Prohibition of mining is simply about consumption of electricity which suddenly became in short supply. Crypto is not banned in China and it is not bannable. Mining of course, is.
    - ashwagary 5y ago
      You can absolutely conceal energy usage, especially in places where large scale manufacturing takes place.
- thereyet 5y ago

fsflover 5y ago

Crypto helps people in semi-totalitarian regimes to not depend on inflation and be independent on the governments with transactions.

400thecat 5y ago
nobody uses bitcoin for transaction anymore It has become pure speculation vehicle
- thereyet 5y ago

helloworld11 5y ago

Since you categorically state that "the whole thing needs to be pulled apart" and attribute all sorts of evils to what is essentially just an open cryptographic protocol that anyone can freely use or not use as they please, I'd say it's you who is more closely edging towards being unable to rationally discuss bitcoin. Many things can be arbitrarily defined as bad ideas without having to be banned and something doesn't need to "better human society" (according to your definition of how that's decided no less) in order to have legitimate reasons for existing.

tarboreus 5y ago
Agreed. Let's get rid of ice cream next. I find I don't like the flavor, it uses a lot of CO2 to create, and it has some negative side effects. I also hate how people are big ice cream boosters, how annoying. Also people are making money from selling ice cream. I'm not making money that way, and don't think other people should, either.

sabellito 5y ago

I don't care about crypto. You comment seems to amount to "I won't argue because you're not rational. The thing you believe in is awful and should cease to exist". Please reconsider.

Devasta 5y ago
"I won't argue because you're not rational. The thing you believe in is awful and should cease to exist" is a perfectly fine stance to have about bitcoin and crypto in general. Its causing massive amounts of pollution, global spikes in price of computer parts, exacerbates shortages in silicon and facilitates all sorts of illegal activity from money laundering to ponzi schemes to trading of illegal goods. And for what? The shittiest database you could imagine.
- sabellito 5y ago
  My criticism on the original comment is not about his take on crypto, it is about taking that stance about quite literally anything. If one refuses to argue because they believe the other side is irrational, then abstain for conversation instead of just name-calling/shitting on the thing on a public forum. This is somewhat equivalent to posting some egregious opinion and then saying "don't @ me".
  - Devasta 5y ago
    You're assuming a level of good faith in crypto bros that frankly doesn't exist. They aren't interested in any criticism of bitcoin and the like, they personally stand to make money from it and you are just their next potential victim.
    - sabellito 5y ago
      I take the dismissive stance you're talking about when dealing with anti-vax, flatearthers, and qanon types. I'm not above that. Having said that, my original point is the same: then don't engage at all. I don't go posting on flatearther forums how "i won't argue and that their opinion is stupid". I either fully engage and endure what I perceive to be unbelievable stupidity, or don't engage at all.