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>Remarkably, neutralization of Omicron was undetectable in most vaccinated individuals. I'm not sure I understand, are they saying double vaccination had no no

>Remarkably, neutralization of Omicron was undetectable in most vaccinated individuals. I'm not sure I understand, are they saying double vaccination had no noticeable effect on Omicron?

crate_barre 5y ago
Whoever wrote that sentence can’t write for shit. It’s the most important sentence in that whole document and they fucked it up. You had one job.
JumpCrisscross 5y ago
> are they saying double vaccination had no noticeable effect on Omicron? Practically, yes. See Figure 2. Recent vax (< 3 mos.) and distant vax (6 to 12 mos.) neutralization is between the first two eighth ticks for omicron. (Distant vax + infection is a bit less effective than distant vax with the wild type variant, which should put to bed the nonsense around prior infection being equivalent to innoculation.) We need an updated vaccine and/or to refresh the vaccination requirement to including boosters.
- scotty79 5y ago
  Check out this paper https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.12.04.21267114v1.full.pdf https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.12.04.21267114v... Last page specifically. I think the problem with comparing immunity from infection and vaccination is mostly due to how quickly both fade out with time.
ChrisMarshallNY 5y ago
I read it as they were surprised that regular vaccinations had no effect on Omicron, but that [recent] boosters did (although to a limited extent). That seems to jive with what I have seen on the ground, around here (New York). Dozens of friends and acquaintances are sick. None, severely. I am quarantined through Christmas weekend. Tests (at least accurate ones) are rare as hen’s teeth. The home test kits seem to be absolutely worthless. I have not talked to one single person that got a positive from a home test (some were clearly symptomatic, when they took the test, and still came up negative).
- HamburgerEmoji 5y ago
- Causality1 5y ago
  My concern is for the other symptoms of covid that could compound. Taking your vaccinations and boosters will generally keep you out of the hospital, but what of the other consequences? Cardiomyopathy, damage to smell and taste, and cognitive impairment could all be cumulative. What happens if they are and we're subjected to decades of repeated damage?
  - ChrisMarshallNY 5y ago
    These are valid concerns. It appears that COVID is a blood disease, as opposed to a pulmonary disease. I know a 19-year-old girl that had a stroke, as a result of COVID. I was talking to an acquaintance that is a mortician, a few months ago, and he said they could always tell the people that died of COVID, because their blood had a different consistency.
    - schnebbau 5y ago
      Well that's interesting because I was also talking to an acquaintance that is a mortician, a few months ago, and he said that anecdotes like this contain absolutely no valuable data at all and only help to sow misinformation.
      - ChrisMarshallNY 5y ago
        > Well that's interesting because I was also talking to an acquaintance that is a mortician, a few months ago, and he said that anecdotes like this contain absolutely no valuable data at all and only help to sow misinformation. That was why I framed it as a personal anecdote. It really happened (unlike yours). It is not supposed to be a valid data point. No double-blind scientific analysis. Just a short personal story. If I don't have anything other than anectdata, I am careful to frame it as personal experience and PoV. I thought we didn't do stuff like this (sarcastic personal attacks) on HN, but I am often wrong. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html > Be kind. Don't be snarky. Have curious conversation; don't cross-examine. Please don't fulminate. Please don't sneer, including at the rest of the community. ... > Please don't post shallow dismissals, especially of other people's work. A good critical comment teaches us something.
0x008 5y ago
Other papers show that they have no noticeable effect on how the virus can reproduce, however the T-immune cell response to already infected cells is still good, meaning you most likely won’t go to the hospital if you get omicron and your 2nd dose is not too long ago.
timr 5y ago
They're saying that it had low effect on immediate neutralization of the virus (sterilizing immunity). You're still well-protected against severe disease. Far too much fear-mongering has happened based on confusion about what different studies are measuring. Measures of "neutralization titer" are pretty much pointless, outside of a lab -- they're a model for immunity with no demonstrated relevance to real-world outcomes. Studies involving "symptomatic disease" are trying to measure the chance you might get any symptoms at all -- a very low bar. Even the sniffles count here. This is where most of the pro-booster studies have focused, and it's a pretty lame endpoint, unless you continue to harbor the delusion that "zero covid" is a thing that is possible (it is not). Basically, if you get infected after two doses, you might get cold-like symptoms, unless you're either severely immunocompromised (e.g. on immune suppressants, AIDS, in the middle of a bone marrow transplant, etc.) or so old that your immune system is failing anyway.
- alex_duf 5y ago
  Thanks, I hadn't made that distinction between immediate and long term protection. The immune system is pretty complicated.

>Remarkably, neutralization of Omicron was undetectable in most vaccinated individuals. I'm not sure I understand, are they saying double vaccination had no noticeable effect on Omicron?

crate_barre 5y ago

Whoever wrote that sentence can’t write for shit. It’s the most important sentence in that whole document and they fucked it up. You had one job.

JumpCrisscross 5y ago

> are they saying double vaccination had no noticeable effect on Omicron? Practically, yes. See Figure 2. Recent vax (< 3 mos.) and distant vax (6 to 12 mos.) neutralization is between the first two eighth ticks for omicron. (Distant vax + infection is a bit less effective than distant vax with the wild type variant, which should put to bed the nonsense around prior infection being equivalent to innoculation.) We need an updated vaccine and/or to refresh the vaccination requirement to including boosters.

scotty79 5y ago
Check out this paper https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.12.04.21267114v1.full.pdf https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.12.04.21267114v... Last page specifically. I think the problem with comparing immunity from infection and vaccination is mostly due to how quickly both fade out with time.

ChrisMarshallNY 5y ago

I read it as they were surprised that regular vaccinations had no effect on Omicron, but that [recent] boosters did (although to a limited extent). That seems to jive with what I have seen on the ground, around here (New York). Dozens of friends and acquaintances are sick. None, severely. I am quarantined through Christmas weekend. Tests (at least accurate ones) are rare as hen’s teeth. The home test kits seem to be absolutely worthless. I have not talked to one single person that got a positive from a home test (some were clearly symptomatic, when they took the test, and still came up negative).

HamburgerEmoji 5y ago
Causality1 5y ago
My concern is for the other symptoms of covid that could compound. Taking your vaccinations and boosters will generally keep you out of the hospital, but what of the other consequences? Cardiomyopathy, damage to smell and taste, and cognitive impairment could all be cumulative. What happens if they are and we're subjected to decades of repeated damage?
- ChrisMarshallNY 5y ago
  These are valid concerns. It appears that COVID is a blood disease, as opposed to a pulmonary disease. I know a 19-year-old girl that had a stroke, as a result of COVID. I was talking to an acquaintance that is a mortician, a few months ago, and he said they could always tell the people that died of COVID, because their blood had a different consistency.
  - schnebbau 5y ago
    Well that's interesting because I was also talking to an acquaintance that is a mortician, a few months ago, and he said that anecdotes like this contain absolutely no valuable data at all and only help to sow misinformation.
    - ChrisMarshallNY 5y ago
      > Well that's interesting because I was also talking to an acquaintance that is a mortician, a few months ago, and he said that anecdotes like this contain absolutely no valuable data at all and only help to sow misinformation. That was why I framed it as a personal anecdote. It really happened (unlike yours). It is not supposed to be a valid data point. No double-blind scientific analysis. Just a short personal story. If I don't have anything other than anectdata, I am careful to frame it as personal experience and PoV. I thought we didn't do stuff like this (sarcastic personal attacks) on HN, but I am often wrong. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html > Be kind. Don't be snarky. Have curious conversation; don't cross-examine. Please don't fulminate. Please don't sneer, including at the rest of the community. ... > Please don't post shallow dismissals, especially of other people's work. A good critical comment teaches us something.

0x008 5y ago

Other papers show that they have no noticeable effect on how the virus can reproduce, however the T-immune cell response to already infected cells is still good, meaning you most likely won’t go to the hospital if you get omicron and your 2nd dose is not too long ago.

timr 5y ago

They're saying that it had low effect on immediate neutralization of the virus (sterilizing immunity). You're still well-protected against severe disease. Far too much fear-mongering has happened based on confusion about what different studies are measuring. Measures of "neutralization titer" are pretty much pointless, outside of a lab -- they're a model for immunity with no demonstrated relevance to real-world outcomes. Studies involving "symptomatic disease" are trying to measure the chance you might get any symptoms at all -- a very low bar. Even the sniffles count here. This is where most of the pro-booster studies have focused, and it's a pretty lame endpoint, unless you continue to harbor the delusion that "zero covid" is a thing that is possible (it is not). Basically, if you get infected after two doses, you might get cold-like symptoms, unless you're either severely immunocompromised (e.g. on immune suppressants, AIDS, in the middle of a bone marrow transplant, etc.) or so old that your immune system is failing anyway.

alex_duf 5y ago
Thanks, I hadn't made that distinction between immediate and long term protection. The immune system is pretty complicated.