4 ms·

Can anyone with a scientific background chime in on why this is nonsense that will never come to viability?

hobofan 5y ago
It's very hard to critique an article that has the quality of GPT-3 generated blogspam and doesn't contain a link to better sources.
- fsflover 5y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Not_even_wrong https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Not_even_wrong ?
- more_corn 5y ago
  I take offense at your implication that GPT3 generates poor quality articles.
bostonpete 5y ago
I usually look to r/science for this sort of skepticism. This particular thread doesn't seem especially negative... https://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/ren6cc/japanese_scientists_create_vaccine_for_aging_to/ https://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/ren6cc/japanese_sc...
varelse 5y ago
- bee_rider 5y ago
  For lots of people, making it to 120ish would let them compare the two turn of the century celebrations, which would be neat. Weird that we're 20% of the way there already. 120 at mid century would seem to give anyone under, like, 40 now quite a bit of runway. Probably a good time to start living a little healthier...
  - varelse 5y ago
    Nah. The thought of being ruled over by a cabal of ageless billionaires offering to resettle you on some poorly managed terraforming project that will take centuries to complete and utterly negate the value of your increased longevity makes me long for the dirt nap as a better alternative when the time comes. And I say that as a 1%er who will choose instead to redistribute my wealth in a final decade of hedonistic YOLOing to the same people who will end up the subjects of this dystopic narcissist oligarchy. You want to be a fungible pair of hands with a longer lifespan because it's cheaper to use disposable fungible you than an expensive heavier to lift out of a gravity well robot? You do you and I'll do me.
    - jcims 5y ago
      Sounds like you have some resources. Maybe go offline for a few months and get centered. If you’re in the US there are folks in Kentucky that could use those fungible hands of yours to help unwreck their shit from some major tornadoes. Running a chainsaw and shovel all day can be calibrating.
      - varelse 5y ago
        For now I make charitable donations, a lot of them. It's amazing how much we could do to elevate people up Maslow's hierarchy if we made that a priority. And Kentucky might even be a great idea if we didn't have such divergent politics over the pandemic. But you're absolutely right about chainsaws and shovels though. Wielding power tools and long walks with my dog are the best form of therapy I've ever encountered.
    - anotherman554 5y ago
      Your scenario is nothing more than a thought experiment. You can think of a different future anytime you want. You can imagine some colonists will form the utopia of our dreams.
      - varelse 5y ago
        It's a thought experiment based on the way our current three comma overlords treat their minions. What makes you think taking that mindset into space will go any better? And at what point do you think space travel will become a commodity to enable those colonists to form that utopia without owing one of these tyrants something big? It doesn't take a lot of inequality to start rolling down the hill to dystopia. Play around with Markov processes and find out for yourself.
- dang 5y ago
  Please edit flamebait and swipes out of your posts here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
carbonguy 5y ago
Reading the abstract for the paper (thanks to skybrian for providing the link) it seems that the phrase "anti-aging vaccine" is a gross exaggeration in this context rather than the science itself being flawed. Broadly, the abstract seems to be describing a particular cell-surface marker found to be associated with senescence ("seno-antigen") which can be targeted by a therapy ("genetic ablation") which accelerates removal of cells with that marker. Doing so improves the lifespan of mice so treated. Thus, as the abstract concludes, "...vaccination targeting seno-antigens could be a potential strategy for new senolytic therapies."
almmoip 5y ago
Killing senescent cells is one thing. Making sure they actually get replaced with new cells instead of scar tissue is another. Until that’s resolved, killing the wrong kinds of senescent cells will kill you much faster than leaving them alone, so even highly targeted killing of senescent cells can’t “rejuvenate” all your organs. https://www.cell.com/cell-metabolism/fulltext/S1550-4131(20)30241-2?_returnURL=https%3A%2F%2Flinkinghub.elsevier.com%2Fretrieve%2Fpii%2FS1550413120302412%3Fshowall%3Dtrue https://www.cell.com/cell-metabolism/fulltext/S1550-4131(20)...
coding123 5y ago
Shouldn't science be the standard? Why implicitly be doubtful?
- AnimalMuppet 5y ago
  History? Given N "advances" that you hear touted based on mouse trials, how many turn into real human therapies? (Curing aging in mice isn't really the advance we're looking for.) How many turn into real human therapies that live up to the breathless announcements that were made based on the mouse trials? I don't have hard evidence, but my gut estimate is 10-20% actually deliver. So, yes, while waiting for the science, there is some empirical grounds to have a default stance of doubt (or, if you prefer, skepticism).
- siver_john 5y ago
  1) The original linked article is not a link to a scientific work. Therefore it's credence should be taken with a grain of salt as news articles need clicks more than they need boring sounding article titles. 2) In science often abstracts or intros open with grand ideas before settling into a much smaller scope. 3) The rise of predatory journals, not to mention people citing pre-print arXivs means even if something looks likes a reasonable article, it's good to get the opinions of other experts. 4) Just because something works doesn't imply how practical it is for actual deployment. (I've been to plenty of chemical talks about fantastic polymers, I've only ever seen one turn into anything of value.)
Symmetry 5y ago
Senescent cells are only one factor in aging. You've also other mitochondrial DNA damage, accumulating nuclear DNA damage leading to cancer, gunk building up inside lysosomes, gunk building up elsewhere, etc. If I were to try to rank them senescent cells would probably be second or third on the list. Potentially a really big deal but not at all synonymous with aging in general. That is, if this actually pans out.

It's very hard to critique an article that has the quality of GPT-3 generated blogspam and doesn't contain a link to better sources.

fsflover 5y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Not_even_wrong https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Not_even_wrong ?
more_corn 5y ago
I take offense at your implication that GPT3 generates poor quality articles.

bostonpete 5y ago

I usually look to r/science for this sort of skepticism. This particular thread doesn't seem especially negative... https://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/ren6cc/japanese_scientists_create_vaccine_for_aging_to/ https://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/ren6cc/japanese_sc...

varelse 5y ago

bee_rider 5y ago
For lots of people, making it to 120ish would let them compare the two turn of the century celebrations, which would be neat. Weird that we're 20% of the way there already. 120 at mid century would seem to give anyone under, like, 40 now quite a bit of runway. Probably a good time to start living a little healthier...
- varelse 5y ago
  Nah. The thought of being ruled over by a cabal of ageless billionaires offering to resettle you on some poorly managed terraforming project that will take centuries to complete and utterly negate the value of your increased longevity makes me long for the dirt nap as a better alternative when the time comes. And I say that as a 1%er who will choose instead to redistribute my wealth in a final decade of hedonistic YOLOing to the same people who will end up the subjects of this dystopic narcissist oligarchy. You want to be a fungible pair of hands with a longer lifespan because it's cheaper to use disposable fungible you than an expensive heavier to lift out of a gravity well robot? You do you and I'll do me.
  - jcims 5y ago
    Sounds like you have some resources. Maybe go offline for a few months and get centered. If you’re in the US there are folks in Kentucky that could use those fungible hands of yours to help unwreck their shit from some major tornadoes. Running a chainsaw and shovel all day can be calibrating.
    - varelse 5y ago
      For now I make charitable donations, a lot of them. It's amazing how much we could do to elevate people up Maslow's hierarchy if we made that a priority. And Kentucky might even be a great idea if we didn't have such divergent politics over the pandemic. But you're absolutely right about chainsaws and shovels though. Wielding power tools and long walks with my dog are the best form of therapy I've ever encountered.
  - anotherman554 5y ago
    Your scenario is nothing more than a thought experiment. You can think of a different future anytime you want. You can imagine some colonists will form the utopia of our dreams.
    - varelse 5y ago
      It's a thought experiment based on the way our current three comma overlords treat their minions. What makes you think taking that mindset into space will go any better? And at what point do you think space travel will become a commodity to enable those colonists to form that utopia without owing one of these tyrants something big? It doesn't take a lot of inequality to start rolling down the hill to dystopia. Play around with Markov processes and find out for yourself.
dang 5y ago
Please edit flamebait and swipes out of your posts here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

carbonguy 5y ago

Reading the abstract for the paper (thanks to skybrian for providing the link) it seems that the phrase "anti-aging vaccine" is a gross exaggeration in this context rather than the science itself being flawed. Broadly, the abstract seems to be describing a particular cell-surface marker found to be associated with senescence ("seno-antigen") which can be targeted by a therapy ("genetic ablation") which accelerates removal of cells with that marker. Doing so improves the lifespan of mice so treated. Thus, as the abstract concludes, "...vaccination targeting seno-antigens could be a potential strategy for new senolytic therapies."

almmoip 5y ago

Killing senescent cells is one thing. Making sure they actually get replaced with new cells instead of scar tissue is another. Until that’s resolved, killing the wrong kinds of senescent cells will kill you much faster than leaving them alone, so even highly targeted killing of senescent cells can’t “rejuvenate” all your organs. https://www.cell.com/cell-metabolism/fulltext/S1550-4131(20)30241-2?_returnURL=https%3A%2F%2Flinkinghub.elsevier.com%2Fretrieve%2Fpii%2FS1550413120302412%3Fshowall%3Dtrue https://www.cell.com/cell-metabolism/fulltext/S1550-4131(20)...

coding123 5y ago

Shouldn't science be the standard? Why implicitly be doubtful?

AnimalMuppet 5y ago
History? Given N "advances" that you hear touted based on mouse trials, how many turn into real human therapies? (Curing aging in mice isn't really the advance we're looking for.) How many turn into real human therapies that live up to the breathless announcements that were made based on the mouse trials? I don't have hard evidence, but my gut estimate is 10-20% actually deliver. So, yes, while waiting for the science, there is some empirical grounds to have a default stance of doubt (or, if you prefer, skepticism).
siver_john 5y ago
1) The original linked article is not a link to a scientific work. Therefore it's credence should be taken with a grain of salt as news articles need clicks more than they need boring sounding article titles. 2) In science often abstracts or intros open with grand ideas before settling into a much smaller scope. 3) The rise of predatory journals, not to mention people citing pre-print arXivs means even if something looks likes a reasonable article, it's good to get the opinions of other experts. 4) Just because something works doesn't imply how practical it is for actual deployment. (I've been to plenty of chemical talks about fantastic polymers, I've only ever seen one turn into anything of value.)

Symmetry 5y ago

Senescent cells are only one factor in aging. You've also other mitochondrial DNA damage, accumulating nuclear DNA damage leading to cancer, gunk building up inside lysosomes, gunk building up elsewhere, etc. If I were to try to rank them senescent cells would probably be second or third on the list. Potentially a really big deal but not at all synonymous with aging in general. That is, if this actually pans out.