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“It Started as a Joke”: On the Design of Idle Games (2019)
- Natsu 5y agoMan, this reminds me of "playing" ProgressQuest back in the day. You'd just sit there and watch the task bars fill.
- shagie 5y agoI recently found https://github.com/rr-/pq-cli https://github.com/rr-/pq-cli which is a direct port of the pascal code https://bitbucket.org/grumdrig/pq/src/pq6/ https://bitbucket.org/grumdrig/pq/src/pq6/ . Even things like "that's weird code - that can't be idiomatic python" https://github.com/rr-/pq-cli/blob/bbe3842a2f0a11bf5bd639da3b6bec66465e3897/pqcli/mechanic.py#L891 https://github.com/rr-/pq-cli/blob/bbe3842a2f0a11bf5bd639da3... lev = level level = lev * qty if not is_definite: result = indefinite(result, qty) matches the code from https://bitbucket.org/grumdrig/pq/src/d611931e37b45395e2fb69f6811920728557d3e9/Main.pas#lines-597 https://bitbucket.org/grumdrig/pq/src/d611931e37b45395e2fb69... lev := level; level := lev * qty; if not definite then Result := Indefinite(Result, qty);
- nirui 5y agoIt seems there is a web page based version as well at https://bitbucket.org/grumdrig/pq-web https://bitbucket.org/grumdrig/pq-web. I did not inspect the code, but I did played it for a little. The most challenging part for me so far is to remember to periodically poke the mouse so screenlocker won't kick in.
- muzani 5y agoI loved games like PQ and Godville back in the day. I hoped they'd be full games in themselves but sadly most remained comedy. It's telling how Melvor Idle really took off despite being so mediocre. There's a lot of demand for it.
- rektide 5y ago> "Beyond Interactivity" Wonderful wonderful idea. I mean, like, so much of the idea of computing that were exciting were about simulation. In many ways, we've let simulation run amock outside the human realms with the recent uprise in Machine Learning: let the computer play virtual games with itself to minimize loss, in deeply far off spaces humans can not even comprehend. > "Our interviewees further conceptualised the progress in idle games as a narrative that is intertwined with system changes (Theme 3) or “paradigm shifts”. Whenever the system changes and players encounter a new cycle of exploration, experimentation and optimisation, a new beat in the narrative unfolds." Lovely lovely idea. I'm playing a semi-idle game Loop Odyssey now, where specific actions ("talk to this villager") take less action-points (mana) the more you loop around & talk to them. The game is about setting up loops within the current bounds of what you can do, and over time these paths become simpler & simpler for your character & your potential expands beyond this current sphere of the game. It's a wonderful dynamic. I love this paper's description of this. Universal Paperclips is probably the most broadly known version of this expansion of gameplays, of shifting paradigms. Shout in specific to Progress Quest. An irc #idlerpg style game: > Progress Quest removes any player input beyond character building as a critique to contemporary role-playing games. Make a character, and let them free amid the virtual. Utterly free, unconstrained, ever adventuring (so long as the app is running). Been a long time since I ran this, but I probably still have a save. Will boot it soon. :)
- shostack 5y agoKittens Game is another wonderful and quite deep incarnation. Some of the paradigm shifts are amazing as you enable certain things through scale
- miobrien 5y agoInteresting read. I recently came across idle games and started playing Melvor Idle on iOS.
- zaps 5y agoBut did it start the whole world crying?
- motoxpro 5y agohttps://www.reddit.com/r/CookieClicker/ https://www.reddit.com/r/CookieClicker/ Is a great game
- ufo 5y agoThe most fun I had with cookie clicker was after I learned that it's easy to write bots using the Javascript developer console.
- speedgoose 5y agoI did set my score to Number.MAX_SAFE_INTEGER, I got an achievement for cheating and the score went to infinity. I saved so much time doing that.
- codetrotter 5y agoBut why link the subreddit instead of the game itself?
- motoxpro 5y agoDidn't realize this was the website https://orteil.dashnet.org/cookieclicker/ https://orteil.dashnet.org/cookieclicker/
- 1123581321 5y agoNice to see this analysis, though as someone who plays these games and appreciates the humor found in many of them, I still am on the balance displeased they've taken so much time and attention. I make up for it by recommending them to others, a wanton and destructive act. :) Antimatter Dimensions is a funny exemplar of the genre that takes several months to complete, with bursts of attention to progress during transitions alternating with long periods of gradual improvement that require infrequent attention. http://ivark.github.io/ http://ivark.github.io/ Antimatter Dimensions is a good example of idle game design because reading a game guide will actually increase the burden of the game by increasing the frequency and intensity of active play--knowing less will slow your progress by months but let you do your job and see your family.
- tifadg1 5y agoIdle games can have lots of addiction inducing dark patterns: 1) resources you can buy with real money; 2) massively increased rewards due to active gameplay; 3) daily gambling rewards; 4) reset-based system when you're grinding to reach some some level, only for everything to be reset for some incremental reward. Worst offenders I tried are NGU idle (overwhelmingly positive steam rating), Trimps, the perfect tower, which aren't actually idle, but rather incremental. A good rule of thumb is - if having a bot for a game would put you in a massive advantage then it's not an idle game, but rather an incremental game - a genre that is designed to be played for 'idle' amounts of time (forever basically) but actively, so will likely feature as many dark patterns as possible to keep you glued (and paying). On the other hand, here's a game like Melvor idle - true idle in spirit with little differentiation between online and offline, no resets, no gambling, yet still with plenty of depth around optimization. Relaxing, yet engaging.
- smegger001 5y agoreminds me of the time i wasted playing AdVenture Capitalist https://store.steampowered.com/app/346900/AdVenture_Capitalist https://store.steampowered.com/app/346900/AdVenture_Capitali... eventually i just uninstalled the game so I would quit playing it. That game is crack.
- MrMember 5y agoI spent the $10 on Melvor and it's far and away the best idle game I've ever played. The upfront cost and no microtransactions at all means the game can be balanced around actually being fun.
- Groxx 5y agoI'll toss in one I learned about recently as another that avoids a lot of this: Bitburner. https://store.steampowered.com/app/1812820/Bitburner/ https://store.steampowered.com/app/1812820/Bitburner/ When you have a full programming environment for automating the game... and taking advantage of that is the point of the game... you get to avoid some of the nastier dark patterns and treat it like a puzzle to solve at whatever pace you want, because every pace is rewarding. Or you could just use it to look at cats, that's an option too apparently. https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2683674829 https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=26836...
- makach 5y agohttps://orteil.dashnet.org/cookieclicker/ https://orteil.dashnet.org/cookieclicker/ - you can thank me later
- dspillett 5y agoOr the originator (IIRC) of that piss-take-but-not style of idle game: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cow_Clicker https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cow_Clicker
- psyc 5y agoI was working at a big serious game company when this debuted. One day I looked around and every dev on our serious game engine team was alt-tabbing to it while they worked. They were pretending to play it ironically, and I thought it was the dumbest thing I’d ever seen, until I tried it.
- wruza 5y agoI remember “clicker heroes” one. People calculated charts of most effective and fastest upgrades to grow the number. Without that the game seemed pointless to me, you click or wait, so what. That’s partly why I like games like Borderlands or Fallout series. I spend most of the time searching for and testing guns and gear, because it gives you control over situations and alerts when you’re not ready for it.
- makach 5y agoyes, no one expects the grandmapocalypse
- marvin 5y agoI remember I heard Elon Musk criticize this game in an interview once, ~"my kids aren't allowed to play computer games anymore; they play a game called cookies or something, you literally just click on a cookie, it's the dumbest thing ever" and thought it was hilarious. I obviously had to try it, and got hooked straight away.
- 5y ago
- prisout64 5y agoIdle or incremental games combine the best and worst of games in one. I used to play them an insane amount of time often 10 at once. Usually the dopamine rush of upgrading dropped very quickly when you hit a progression wall. I usually abandoned it and started the next, to keep the upgrading dopamine hits coming. It was a weird time and I was kinda addicted but at some point just got incredibly bored. Impressive how detailed and extensive some idle games are though!
- dzdt 5y agoCuriously missing from the abstract is their definition of "idle games". In the paper they define it as a games that "require players to leave the game and return to it at a later, unspecified point, where the game progresses on its own during that time and opens up different options for further play upon return."
- yoz-y 5y agoIt seems to me that these supposedly idle games require some sort of input at any stage. When I hear idle game, I think about irc idle rpgs where you are actually penalized for doing anything.
- mysterydip 5y agoI feel like there's a parallel here with social media: make a post, it idly collects likes and comments for that dopamine fix, and the next day your progress is reset (hardly anyone looks at old posts).
- lioeters 5y agoOne of the cited articles is called "Designing Smartphone Apps That Support Habit Formation". It's about intentionally developing positive habits, but I'm sure the same principles can be applied as a dark pattern, to subconsciously encourage addictive behavior, as in social media. In the posted article, there's a final section titled "Beyond Games". It made me see the larger implications, how designers and developers of technology have an ethical responsibility not to abuse such psychological dynamics. > These design guidelines are potentially valuable for other ambient technologies. We turn our attention to pervasive technologies, such as smart homes and fitness trackers, whose functions in day-to-day lives bear a striking resemblance to idle games. > Our findings also have potential implications for the design of technologies around influencing and affecting the development of positive habits.
- Kaze404 5y agoI really enjoy Cookie Clicker. Not because it is a particularly fun game to play, but the way it uses the medium to tell a narrative without a single line of dialogue is nothing short of masterful. The whole game's premise is an obvious critique and satire of unlimited, exponential growth under capitalism and it never has to invoke Marxist theory to make you think about that. Anyone who stops to question why they have an army of grannies producing more cookies than there are atoms on Earth and still want more can reach that conclusion on their own. It's a shame the genre was appropriated into being exactly what the pioneer game criticized, but it just makes the point more valid from my perspective.
- dragontamer 5y agoI've played a lot of idle games, and I think there's a spectrum from dumb to managerial. For example, Factorio (especially in peaceful mode) almost certainly qualifies as an Idle Game. Your factory continues to produce even when you leave the computer on for hours. With a good enough setup, you can leave even when Biters are active (as long as you have enough bots to auto-regenerate your walls and rebuild your base as it is attacked). But no one here will ever say Factorio is a "Bad" game. -------------- On the other end, I've played Clicker Heroes, which is about as idle-game as you can get. Pay-real-money for minor benefits? Check. Reset based system? Check. Guilds + chat to encourage collaboration? Check. Etc. etc. Ultimately, a good clicker-game / idle-game is a text-based management sim. People like it when numbers go up, and people like it even more when numbers go up dramatically. Ex: Factorio's "Rocket-per-minute" bases, or doing 500 quadrillion damage-per-second in Clicker Heroes. Its all just numbers going up. -------- That being said: Universal Paperclips is probably the best clicker-game I've ever played and I highly recommend that one. https://www.decisionproblem.com/paperclips/ https://www.decisionproblem.com/paperclips/ Minor spoilers: Universal Paperclips has an ending. I can speed run it in about 3 hours these days, expect maybe 10 to 15 hours if you've never played it before / are going guideless.
- thomastjeffery 5y agoFactorio absolutely isn't an idle game. What defines an idle game is that progression is achieved from time passing instead of from player action. For example, cookie clicker is an idle game because you progress by waiting for your count to reach a certain number before you can progress. You can make that happen sooner by buying more buildings, which makes your production increase exponentially, but growth is given a hard limit by exponentially increasing building prices. Because growth and cost of growth over time follow the same order, we can simplify the equation to "progress = time". Factorio, on the other hand, bases progression on growth instead of time. Each step along the tech tree requires a certain amount of production growth, which can be increased exponentially against linear time. Because of this, time can be minimized by putting more player action into growth. The easiest way to see this difference is to note that Factorio can be speedrun in ~1:30, requiring players to be constantly acting to grow their factory. Cookie clicker can essentially be run at it's minimum amount of time by sitting idle and picking the correct upgrades at the right time.
- oneweekwonder 5y agoClickpocalypse 2[0] is a idle dungeon crawler i really like to watch with a Final Fantasy/Ultima kind of feel. [0]: http://minmaxia.com/c2/ http://minmaxia.com/c2/
- james-skemp 5y agoNice things about this: - not pay to win - has a set ending - allows for replay if/when you want - multiple party setups - specific way to play if you want to speed through, but no need to read a wiki if you want to play to the end - nice active and passive unlocks However, not a lot of choices once the game gets going, which is fine for me. Still has interaction via the handful of spells you can cast, and what you choose to unlock. I think I've 100% the game on Android twice (two different phones).
- tobiasSoftware 5y agoFor anyone who likes the general format of Idle games but doesn't like the idling parts of them or the unbounded time they take, I recommend Forager. You can complete the game in a week, so it won't take over your life forever. It mixes the addictive grinding of an Idle game with quests, puzzles, and small dungeons that you do while the grinding part idles. By doing this, it discourages actually idling while giving you the feel of an idle game. I've tried Cookie Clicker, Clicker Heroes, and Leaf Blower Revolution, and all of them just take over my life while at the same time having no real end goal, and I always just have to delete it all before it consumes my life. It turns out I much prefer farming sims like Harvest Moon, Slime Rancher, and My Time at Portia, but I really like how Forager takes the farming sim format and gives it the feel of an idle game without the problems that affect my real life.
- vikingerik 5y agoUniversal Paperclips is a fantastic answer to your concerns, as others have mentioned. It has an endpoint that takes 1-3 days to reach, and hardly makes for any idling, there are always significant upgrades to buy at intervals that are usually not more than a minute.
- __MatrixMan__ 5y agoI tried it on your recommendation. Wow.