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That's my biggest reservation about doing this. I feel like the possibility of one finding out about the other would weigh on me pretty heavily. Not that I th

That's my biggest reservation about doing this. I feel like the possibility of one finding out about the other would weigh on me pretty heavily. Not that I think it's unethical, mind you. I'd just be stressed about the worst-case scenario and the impact it would have on my career. Would love the double income though, not gonna lie.

Flankk 5y ago
Of course it's unethical, it's time theft. It requires you to be dishonest. You can make money as a con artist in many ways, this is just one of them. You can lie about your qualifications and experience too. If your only reservation with being dishonest is the possibility you might get caught, I think that says a lot about you as a person.
- frankbreetz 5y ago
  If you are accomplishing your job to an acceptable standard it is not unethical. As long as it is not hourly, you just have to accomplish your tasks.
  - lumost 5y ago
    Most salary contracts prevent moonlighting like this to one extent or another. You’d need to vet the fine print on whether working 2 40 hour per week jobs is ok. Not to mention that both jobs may ask more hours of you at any point.
- greyface- 5y ago
  If you're salaried, you're not paid for time, you're paid for output.
  - Flankk 5y ago
    That is beside the point. It's expected you will bring your best effort to the job and not do half-ass sloppy work. The article is not recommending you work 16 hour days, they are recommending you bite the hand that feeds.
  - gruez 5y ago
    Are you sure? I searched around for employment contracts and the first result that isn't trivial (ie. less than a page) has a "full time" clause, eg. https://www.lawdepot.com/contracts/employment-contract/?loc=US https://www.lawdepot.com/contracts/employment-contract/?loc=... >Duty to Devote Full Time >The Employee agrees to devote full-time efforts, as an employee of the Employer, to the employment duties and obligations as described in this Agreement. The template linked above also an option of specifying work hours, so that makes it extra risky from a legal point of view.
- ghaff 5y ago
  Of course, if you're an hourly employee and don't (as you mostly shouldn't) have non compete clauses of some sort it's mostly fine. However, as a salaried employer who generally can't also work for a competitor, it's pretty scummy unless it's something unrelated and you're putting in your hours--which it would be hard to do. I'm sure there are "life hacking" people who think this is fine but it's really not. And if you're anyone other than a low level drone of course people know who you work for and you're publicly visible.
  - toomanyrichies 5y ago
    Right, I'm assuming the two companies would be in completely different spaces. Otherwise I'd have significant ethical concerns.
    - ghaff 5y ago
      Sure, if you have a full-time tech job and also a "full-time" side gig running a pottery business (or doing some unrelated consulting/writing on the side), very few companies are going to have a real issue. (If you aren't really doing a good job on your tech job that's between you and you employer.) But these sorts of stories are basically all about people having two full-time tech jobs and time slicing them--including possibly outsourcing some of the work. ADDED: And maybe it's just a function of the sort of job I have but what are these extremely well-paid jobs where you're some anonymous drone where a wide range of people in the industry aren't very familiar with who you work for.
    - benttoothpaste 5y ago
      Not just ethical concerns. If trade secrets are involved there is a possibility of criminal charges.
- endemic 5y ago
  How is it different than working two shifts?
  - ghaff 5y ago
    There are jobs where you're clearly just trading time for money. And there are jobs where you're basically expected to be working for multiple clients (but presumably not sharing confidential information)--though in some industries that means not taking jobs from multiple competitors. But, yes, taking multiple full-time jobs in an industry and lying about it makes you dishonest. Of course, if the companies are just fine about it that's totally cool.
  - dnautics 5y ago
    or working a job and having a hobby that it turns out later can be profitable? Or working a job and working on a startup on the side? Or, hell, working at a job and doing your own, unpaid, yardwork on the side, or childcare?
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- GiorgioG 5y ago
  If a person can do the job that's expected of them I don't find it unethical (assuming they're not working for competitors, utilizing resources of one employer for the other, etc.) They're not hourly employees and double-billing. Employers are dishonest and unethical all the time. Just because the norm is having one employer (to the primary benefit of the employer) does not make it unethical to have 2 jobs. Having said that, I wouldn't want to deal with the stress of one employer finding out about the other(s).
- dnautics 5y ago
  > it's time theft Depends on your contract, but I think very few companies can legally expect to "own your time" unless you're logging billable hours, or clocking in (hourly wage). If you're logging billable-hours and double billing, yes that IS fraud. Obviously, if you're clocking in, it's unlikely you'll be working two jobs simultaneously, and if you are, it's unethical.
- tehjoker 5y ago
  Profit comes from theft of your time.
darepublic 5y ago
You can always outsource parts of the job too
- duxup 5y ago
  Nothing worse than other people’s code… or my code I forgot… or worst of all other people’s code that is supposed to be my code that I have no hope of remembering…
- valdiorn 5y ago
  and now you're giving an unauthorized third party access to the company network. Yeah that's a good way to go from simple breach of contract to possible criminal charges.
Leherenn 5y ago
I think it is unethical if you're lying about the amount of work you do, using fake excuses like "it's harder than I thought it would be", "I got stuck on x" when you're just not working or working for your second company. Yes, you're paid for an output, but how can your manager give you a reasonable output when you're constantly lying and deceiving them about how hard/long something is? People are always complaining that they are not trusted enough by their manager, but when you see the comments here, I kinda feel bad for said managers. A good manager will be able to see through it eventually without resorting to micromanagement, but it can take a while and do a lot of damages until then. I also see arguments like "some companies do worse to employees". I understand where this is coming from, but this can be used to excuse pretty much any kind of behaviour and just leads to a deleterious environment.

Flankk 5y ago

Of course it's unethical, it's time theft. It requires you to be dishonest. You can make money as a con artist in many ways, this is just one of them. You can lie about your qualifications and experience too. If your only reservation with being dishonest is the possibility you might get caught, I think that says a lot about you as a person.

frankbreetz 5y ago
If you are accomplishing your job to an acceptable standard it is not unethical. As long as it is not hourly, you just have to accomplish your tasks.
- lumost 5y ago
  Most salary contracts prevent moonlighting like this to one extent or another. You’d need to vet the fine print on whether working 2 40 hour per week jobs is ok. Not to mention that both jobs may ask more hours of you at any point.
greyface- 5y ago
If you're salaried, you're not paid for time, you're paid for output.
- Flankk 5y ago
  That is beside the point. It's expected you will bring your best effort to the job and not do half-ass sloppy work. The article is not recommending you work 16 hour days, they are recommending you bite the hand that feeds.
- gruez 5y ago
  Are you sure? I searched around for employment contracts and the first result that isn't trivial (ie. less than a page) has a "full time" clause, eg. https://www.lawdepot.com/contracts/employment-contract/?loc=US https://www.lawdepot.com/contracts/employment-contract/?loc=... >Duty to Devote Full Time >The Employee agrees to devote full-time efforts, as an employee of the Employer, to the employment duties and obligations as described in this Agreement. The template linked above also an option of specifying work hours, so that makes it extra risky from a legal point of view.
ghaff 5y ago
Of course, if you're an hourly employee and don't (as you mostly shouldn't) have non compete clauses of some sort it's mostly fine. However, as a salaried employer who generally can't also work for a competitor, it's pretty scummy unless it's something unrelated and you're putting in your hours--which it would be hard to do. I'm sure there are "life hacking" people who think this is fine but it's really not. And if you're anyone other than a low level drone of course people know who you work for and you're publicly visible.
- toomanyrichies 5y ago
  Right, I'm assuming the two companies would be in completely different spaces. Otherwise I'd have significant ethical concerns.
  - ghaff 5y ago
    Sure, if you have a full-time tech job and also a "full-time" side gig running a pottery business (or doing some unrelated consulting/writing on the side), very few companies are going to have a real issue. (If you aren't really doing a good job on your tech job that's between you and you employer.) But these sorts of stories are basically all about people having two full-time tech jobs and time slicing them--including possibly outsourcing some of the work. ADDED: And maybe it's just a function of the sort of job I have but what are these extremely well-paid jobs where you're some anonymous drone where a wide range of people in the industry aren't very familiar with who you work for.
  - benttoothpaste 5y ago
    Not just ethical concerns. If trade secrets are involved there is a possibility of criminal charges.
endemic 5y ago
How is it different than working two shifts?
- ghaff 5y ago
  There are jobs where you're clearly just trading time for money. And there are jobs where you're basically expected to be working for multiple clients (but presumably not sharing confidential information)--though in some industries that means not taking jobs from multiple competitors. But, yes, taking multiple full-time jobs in an industry and lying about it makes you dishonest. Of course, if the companies are just fine about it that's totally cool.
- dnautics 5y ago
  or working a job and having a hobby that it turns out later can be profitable? Or working a job and working on a startup on the side? Or, hell, working at a job and doing your own, unpaid, yardwork on the side, or childcare?
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
GiorgioG 5y ago
If a person can do the job that's expected of them I don't find it unethical (assuming they're not working for competitors, utilizing resources of one employer for the other, etc.) They're not hourly employees and double-billing. Employers are dishonest and unethical all the time. Just because the norm is having one employer (to the primary benefit of the employer) does not make it unethical to have 2 jobs. Having said that, I wouldn't want to deal with the stress of one employer finding out about the other(s).
dnautics 5y ago
> it's time theft Depends on your contract, but I think very few companies can legally expect to "own your time" unless you're logging billable hours, or clocking in (hourly wage). If you're logging billable-hours and double billing, yes that IS fraud. Obviously, if you're clocking in, it's unlikely you'll be working two jobs simultaneously, and if you are, it's unethical.
tehjoker 5y ago
Profit comes from theft of your time.

darepublic 5y ago

You can always outsource parts of the job too

duxup 5y ago
Nothing worse than other people’s code… or my code I forgot… or worst of all other people’s code that is supposed to be my code that I have no hope of remembering…
valdiorn 5y ago
and now you're giving an unauthorized third party access to the company network. Yeah that's a good way to go from simple breach of contract to possible criminal charges.

Leherenn 5y ago

I think it is unethical if you're lying about the amount of work you do, using fake excuses like "it's harder than I thought it would be", "I got stuck on x" when you're just not working or working for your second company. Yes, you're paid for an output, but how can your manager give you a reasonable output when you're constantly lying and deceiving them about how hard/long something is? People are always complaining that they are not trusted enough by their manager, but when you see the comments here, I kinda feel bad for said managers. A good manager will be able to see through it eventually without resorting to micromanagement, but it can take a while and do a lot of damages until then. I also see arguments like "some companies do worse to employees". I understand where this is coming from, but this can be used to excuse pretty much any kind of behaviour and just leads to a deleterious environment.