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The outcomes are definitely not objectively worse, to the point that the U.S. is a huge medical tourism destination. The US population not taking care of thems

The outcomes are definitely not objectively worse, to the point that the U.S. is a huge medical tourism destination. The US population not taking care of themselves is a public health problem not a medical care quality issue.

CRConrad 5y ago
Re-read what you replied to: they were talking about "the average American", not the richest ones. The total societal outcome -- spending vs outcome -- and therefore the average outcome too, for the USA as compared to most other developed countries... Pretty much sucks.
dmitriid 5y ago
> to the point that the U.S. is a huge medical tourism destination. Of course, if you have the money to fly to the US, stay in the US and pay out-of-pocket for a medical procedure in the US, then yes, the US is a good destination. Which translates into: if you're rich, medicine in the US is great. However, not all of us are rich. And definitely not all Americans are rich.
- nostrebored 5y ago
  Well that’s not the OPs value judgment at all is it? Sifted goalposts
  - dmitriid 5y ago
    This: > The average American pays more for healthcare over their live than the average European, and the outcomes are objectively worse. remains true. No matter how you want to spin it and pretend that medical tourism affects this in any way. Edit: For 2015, https://www.usitc.gov/publications/332/executive_briefings/chambers_health-related_travel_final.pdf https://www.usitc.gov/publications/332/executive_briefings/c... - Medical tourism to US: between 100k and 200k per year - Medical tourism from US to other countries: 150k to 350k per year Europe is ~500 million people US is ~ 360 million people Medical tourism is a drop in the bucket.
    - TMWNN 5y ago
      Your cite says that >Americans cite cost savings as the most common reason to go abroad for health treatment, as medical procedures in foreign hospitals can cost thousands of dollars less than in the United States. This is especially true for those without health insurance—for an uninsured person, a knee replacement can cost $30,000 in the United States, compared to $12,000 in India. Many health travelers also go abroad for elective procedures such as cosmetic surgery that regular policies may not cover. In other words, they largely go outside the US to save money on either cosmetic or routine procedures that, for one reason or other, US insurance won't cover.[1] Not same thing as the earlier discussion of rare or difficult conditions. [1] Or they've chosen to not get health insurance. Post-Obamacare, this means that they are willingly paying the tax penalty for not having insurance. 91% of Americans have health insurance.
      - dmitriid 5y ago
        > Not same thing as the earlier discussion of rare or difficult conditions. There was no earlier discussion of "rare or difficult conditions". > 91% of Americans have health insurance. That health insurance is often tied to the employer and wildly varies in what it offers. And you have to fight insurance tooth and nail to get what you need. Even on a good insurance. Also, https://www.census.gov/library/publications/2021/demo/p60-274.html https://www.census.gov/library/publications/2021/demo/p60-27... --- start quote --- In 2020, 8.6 percent of people, or 28.0 million, did not have health insurance at any point during the year. The percentage of people with health insurance coverage for all or part of 2020 was 91.4. More children under the age of 19 in poverty were uninsured in 2020 than in 2018. Uninsured rates for children under the age of 19 in poverty rose 1.6 percentage points to 9.3 percent. --- end quote --- I can't imagine a European saying "yeah, we have 28 million uninsured, many of them kids, it's their own fault".
        TMWNN 5y ago
        5y ago
ClumsyPilot 5y ago
"the U.S. is a huge medical tourism destination." It's not in the top 5 by number of patients treated. Anecdotally I met people who went to Germany, Israel, India and Thailand for treatment, I never heard of anyone even discussing going to the US. The visas alone are a nightmare.
- nostrebored 5y ago
  The U.S. is a huge medical tourism destination for rare and deadly disease. It’s undeniable and well documented. The U.S. has the largest concentration of the best research hospitals in the world.
  - ClumsyPilot 5y ago
    "destination for rare and deadly disease" I see someone shifting the goalposts here, first we were saying that US healthcare is not worse in any metric, then we started measuring it's success by medical tourism, now are down to some special rare diseases. Let's come back to where we were before, measures per unit of money spent, US healthcare delivers worse outcomes that any other developed nation. Measured in average health of its citizen, the outcomes aren't great. Life expectancy, and other metrics aren't particularly amazing.

CRConrad 5y ago

Re-read what you replied to: they were talking about "the average American", not the richest ones. The total societal outcome -- spending vs outcome -- and therefore the average outcome too, for the USA as compared to most other developed countries... Pretty much sucks.

dmitriid 5y ago

> to the point that the U.S. is a huge medical tourism destination. Of course, if you have the money to fly to the US, stay in the US and pay out-of-pocket for a medical procedure in the US, then yes, the US is a good destination. Which translates into: if you're rich, medicine in the US is great. However, not all of us are rich. And definitely not all Americans are rich.

nostrebored 5y ago
Well that’s not the OPs value judgment at all is it? Sifted goalposts
- dmitriid 5y ago
  This: > The average American pays more for healthcare over their live than the average European, and the outcomes are objectively worse. remains true. No matter how you want to spin it and pretend that medical tourism affects this in any way. Edit: For 2015, https://www.usitc.gov/publications/332/executive_briefings/chambers_health-related_travel_final.pdf https://www.usitc.gov/publications/332/executive_briefings/c... - Medical tourism to US: between 100k and 200k per year - Medical tourism from US to other countries: 150k to 350k per year Europe is ~500 million people US is ~ 360 million people Medical tourism is a drop in the bucket.
  - TMWNN 5y ago
    Your cite says that >Americans cite cost savings as the most common reason to go abroad for health treatment, as medical procedures in foreign hospitals can cost thousands of dollars less than in the United States. This is especially true for those without health insurance—for an uninsured person, a knee replacement can cost $30,000 in the United States, compared to $12,000 in India. Many health travelers also go abroad for elective procedures such as cosmetic surgery that regular policies may not cover. In other words, they largely go outside the US to save money on either cosmetic or routine procedures that, for one reason or other, US insurance won't cover.[1] Not same thing as the earlier discussion of rare or difficult conditions. [1] Or they've chosen to not get health insurance. Post-Obamacare, this means that they are willingly paying the tax penalty for not having insurance. 91% of Americans have health insurance.
    - dmitriid 5y ago
      > Not same thing as the earlier discussion of rare or difficult conditions. There was no earlier discussion of "rare or difficult conditions". > 91% of Americans have health insurance. That health insurance is often tied to the employer and wildly varies in what it offers. And you have to fight insurance tooth and nail to get what you need. Even on a good insurance. Also, https://www.census.gov/library/publications/2021/demo/p60-274.html https://www.census.gov/library/publications/2021/demo/p60-27... --- start quote --- In 2020, 8.6 percent of people, or 28.0 million, did not have health insurance at any point during the year. The percentage of people with health insurance coverage for all or part of 2020 was 91.4. More children under the age of 19 in poverty were uninsured in 2020 than in 2018. Uninsured rates for children under the age of 19 in poverty rose 1.6 percentage points to 9.3 percent. --- end quote --- I can't imagine a European saying "yeah, we have 28 million uninsured, many of them kids, it's their own fault".
      - TMWNN 5y ago
        5y ago

ClumsyPilot 5y ago

"the U.S. is a huge medical tourism destination." It's not in the top 5 by number of patients treated. Anecdotally I met people who went to Germany, Israel, India and Thailand for treatment, I never heard of anyone even discussing going to the US. The visas alone are a nightmare.

nostrebored 5y ago
The U.S. is a huge medical tourism destination for rare and deadly disease. It’s undeniable and well documented. The U.S. has the largest concentration of the best research hospitals in the world.
- ClumsyPilot 5y ago
  "destination for rare and deadly disease" I see someone shifting the goalposts here, first we were saying that US healthcare is not worse in any metric, then we started measuring it's success by medical tourism, now are down to some special rare diseases. Let's come back to where we were before, measures per unit of money spent, US healthcare delivers worse outcomes that any other developed nation. Measured in average health of its citizen, the outcomes aren't great. Life expectancy, and other metrics aren't particularly amazing.