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Well, you will pay these 20k only the 40-ish years you'll work, while you'll pay your US health care insurance until you die. The average American pays more for

Well, you will pay these 20k only the 40-ish years you'll work, while you'll pay your US health care insurance until you die. The average American pays more for healthcare over their live than the average European, and the outcomes are objectively worse. Also, EU governments provide retirement benefits while the US's doesn't. This is the main expenditure for these governments. Not saying that your argument has not some truth in it, but it's definitively wrong in the case of healthcare.

test0account 5y ago
20k of GDP per capita means in any year of your life, even after 65. People migrate to the US before the EU. Besides, US lifestyle (also a high tax country btw) is not the only possible alternative to european style quasi socialism (56% on the way there)
- jokethrowaway 5y ago
  The EU is not anymore quasi socialist than the US. Incidentally I'd say most western countries are way too close to socialism, I'd rather see more private entities taking over security, healthcare and law making. It's just that there is no money, so private EU companies suck so there is no money. The lack of strong companies doesn't imply socialism. Most people in Europe has most of their trade interactions with other individuals and private businesses.
nostrebored 5y ago
The outcomes are definitely not objectively worse, to the point that the U.S. is a huge medical tourism destination. The US population not taking care of themselves is a public health problem not a medical care quality issue.
- CRConrad 5y ago
  Re-read what you replied to: they were talking about "the average American", not the richest ones. The total societal outcome -- spending vs outcome -- and therefore the average outcome too, for the USA as compared to most other developed countries... Pretty much sucks.
- dmitriid 5y ago
  > to the point that the U.S. is a huge medical tourism destination. Of course, if you have the money to fly to the US, stay in the US and pay out-of-pocket for a medical procedure in the US, then yes, the US is a good destination. Which translates into: if you're rich, medicine in the US is great. However, not all of us are rich. And definitely not all Americans are rich.
  - nostrebored 5y ago
    Well that’s not the OPs value judgment at all is it? Sifted goalposts
    - dmitriid 5y ago
      This: > The average American pays more for healthcare over their live than the average European, and the outcomes are objectively worse. remains true. No matter how you want to spin it and pretend that medical tourism affects this in any way. Edit: For 2015, https://www.usitc.gov/publications/332/executive_briefings/chambers_health-related_travel_final.pdf https://www.usitc.gov/publications/332/executive_briefings/c... - Medical tourism to US: between 100k and 200k per year - Medical tourism from US to other countries: 150k to 350k per year Europe is ~500 million people US is ~ 360 million people Medical tourism is a drop in the bucket.
      - TMWNN 5y ago
        Your cite says that >Americans cite cost savings as the most common reason to go abroad for health treatment, as medical procedures in foreign hospitals can cost thousands of dollars less than in the United States. This is especially true for those without health insurance—for an uninsured person, a knee replacement can cost $30,000 in the United States, compared to $12,000 in India. Many health travelers also go abroad for elective procedures such as cosmetic surgery that regular policies may not cover. In other words, they largely go outside the US to save money on either cosmetic or routine procedures that, for one reason or other, US insurance won't cover.[1] Not same thing as the earlier discussion of rare or difficult conditions. [1] Or they've chosen to not get health insurance. Post-Obamacare, this means that they are willingly paying the tax penalty for not having insurance. 91% of Americans have health insurance.
- ClumsyPilot 5y ago
  "the U.S. is a huge medical tourism destination." It's not in the top 5 by number of patients treated. Anecdotally I met people who went to Germany, Israel, India and Thailand for treatment, I never heard of anyone even discussing going to the US. The visas alone are a nightmare.
  - nostrebored 5y ago
    The U.S. is a huge medical tourism destination for rare and deadly disease. It’s undeniable and well documented. The U.S. has the largest concentration of the best research hospitals in the world.
    - ClumsyPilot 5y ago
      "destination for rare and deadly disease" I see someone shifting the goalposts here, first we were saying that US healthcare is not worse in any metric, then we started measuring it's success by medical tourism, now are down to some special rare diseases. Let's come back to where we were before, measures per unit of money spent, US healthcare delivers worse outcomes that any other developed nation. Measured in average health of its citizen, the outcomes aren't great. Life expectancy, and other metrics aren't particularly amazing.
jandrewrogers 5y ago
The US government provides extensive retirement benefits similar to the EU in both type and dollar value. These are some of the biggest spending line items in the US budget: Social Security, Medicare, etc. My US government provided pension will be something like $3500/month when I reach retirement age. This is in addition to any personal retirement savings.

test0account 5y ago

20k of GDP per capita means in any year of your life, even after 65. People migrate to the US before the EU. Besides, US lifestyle (also a high tax country btw) is not the only possible alternative to european style quasi socialism (56% on the way there)

jokethrowaway 5y ago
The EU is not anymore quasi socialist than the US. Incidentally I'd say most western countries are way too close to socialism, I'd rather see more private entities taking over security, healthcare and law making. It's just that there is no money, so private EU companies suck so there is no money. The lack of strong companies doesn't imply socialism. Most people in Europe has most of their trade interactions with other individuals and private businesses.

nostrebored 5y ago

The outcomes are definitely not objectively worse, to the point that the U.S. is a huge medical tourism destination. The US population not taking care of themselves is a public health problem not a medical care quality issue.

CRConrad 5y ago
Re-read what you replied to: they were talking about "the average American", not the richest ones. The total societal outcome -- spending vs outcome -- and therefore the average outcome too, for the USA as compared to most other developed countries... Pretty much sucks.
dmitriid 5y ago
> to the point that the U.S. is a huge medical tourism destination. Of course, if you have the money to fly to the US, stay in the US and pay out-of-pocket for a medical procedure in the US, then yes, the US is a good destination. Which translates into: if you're rich, medicine in the US is great. However, not all of us are rich. And definitely not all Americans are rich.
- nostrebored 5y ago
  Well that’s not the OPs value judgment at all is it? Sifted goalposts
  - dmitriid 5y ago
    This: > The average American pays more for healthcare over their live than the average European, and the outcomes are objectively worse. remains true. No matter how you want to spin it and pretend that medical tourism affects this in any way. Edit: For 2015, https://www.usitc.gov/publications/332/executive_briefings/chambers_health-related_travel_final.pdf https://www.usitc.gov/publications/332/executive_briefings/c... - Medical tourism to US: between 100k and 200k per year - Medical tourism from US to other countries: 150k to 350k per year Europe is ~500 million people US is ~ 360 million people Medical tourism is a drop in the bucket.
    - TMWNN 5y ago
      Your cite says that >Americans cite cost savings as the most common reason to go abroad for health treatment, as medical procedures in foreign hospitals can cost thousands of dollars less than in the United States. This is especially true for those without health insurance—for an uninsured person, a knee replacement can cost $30,000 in the United States, compared to $12,000 in India. Many health travelers also go abroad for elective procedures such as cosmetic surgery that regular policies may not cover. In other words, they largely go outside the US to save money on either cosmetic or routine procedures that, for one reason or other, US insurance won't cover.[1] Not same thing as the earlier discussion of rare or difficult conditions. [1] Or they've chosen to not get health insurance. Post-Obamacare, this means that they are willingly paying the tax penalty for not having insurance. 91% of Americans have health insurance.
ClumsyPilot 5y ago
"the U.S. is a huge medical tourism destination." It's not in the top 5 by number of patients treated. Anecdotally I met people who went to Germany, Israel, India and Thailand for treatment, I never heard of anyone even discussing going to the US. The visas alone are a nightmare.
- nostrebored 5y ago
  The U.S. is a huge medical tourism destination for rare and deadly disease. It’s undeniable and well documented. The U.S. has the largest concentration of the best research hospitals in the world.
  - ClumsyPilot 5y ago
    "destination for rare and deadly disease" I see someone shifting the goalposts here, first we were saying that US healthcare is not worse in any metric, then we started measuring it's success by medical tourism, now are down to some special rare diseases. Let's come back to where we were before, measures per unit of money spent, US healthcare delivers worse outcomes that any other developed nation. Measured in average health of its citizen, the outcomes aren't great. Life expectancy, and other metrics aren't particularly amazing.

jandrewrogers 5y ago

The US government provides extensive retirement benefits similar to the EU in both type and dollar value. These are some of the biggest spending line items in the US budget: Social Security, Medicare, etc. My US government provided pension will be something like $3500/month when I reach retirement age. This is in addition to any personal retirement savings.