5 ms·

Imagine 10 years ago if someone posted videos like the ones we see today of flash mobs shoplifting major retailers, or of stores literally BOARDING UP their win

by arrakis2021 5y ago

Imagine 10 years ago if someone posted videos like the ones we see today of flash mobs shoplifting major retailers, or of stores literally BOARDING UP their windows in major urban centers. there would be no discussion, no debate, no “deconstruction of modern crime” - none of this handwringing pseudo-intellectual nonsense. In 2010 This would have been handled. Not sure what changed but these cities and their bureaucrats really don’t seem to care. People, however, do care about themselves, their families and their businesses. if this continues you can expect a major outflow of people, capital and talent.

tayo42 5y ago
there's nothing different about 2010. How do you think it would have been handled? People are just realizing what they can get a way with. I worked reatil in 2010, if there was a shoplifter we were told to let it go, same as now. Police don't patrol retail stores
- simplestats 5y ago
  I remember Fry's used to have cops visiting daily to pick up the shoplifters they had detained. I think policies tended to be more along the lines of try to detain them, but if they become dangerous to let them go. Just watching a thief pocket something and walk out the door without saying a word to them seems nuts. I still have difficulty believing this happens in most of the country, apart from urban areas. Certainly where I live there's lots of employes working in stores and no homeless around. meanwhile downtown the stores all seem to have minimal staff and incidents seem to be pretty common.
  - Jochim 5y ago
    Why should any retail worker stick their neck out for a company that's probably paying them close to minimum wage?
UncleMeat 5y ago
Could you imagine if “law and order” folks cared about wage theft remotely as much as they care about this?
mdgrech23 5y ago
bluefirebrand 5y ago
I'm not so sure. Almost 10 years ago where I was living back then, there was a large homeless tent city put up right on a courthouse lawn, to circumvent anti-camping bans in municipal parks. The courthouse land was provincial land so it didn't count. It still made crime rates skyrocket in the area, people were advised not to walk in the area alone, etc. It didn't get "handled", it festered a long while before it was finally dismantled.
beepbooptheory 5y ago
Comments like these are indicative of nothing more than the fact that many people have been able to live very sheltered, vacuum sealed lives in gentrified areas of cities for a while now. It is psychologically understandable, your shock, I would just urge you to realize that economic austerity and the crime that follows from it is not new, and is in fact more normal than otherwise.
- tomjen3 5y ago
  You are making the assumption that deprived areas lead to crime, but maybe it is crime that ruins areas because nobody wants to open a business there, and those who can (generally those who would provide a positive, stable influence) leave?
  - beepbooptheory 5y ago
    I just dont believe that "crime" is something in itself that's like floating around, looking for communities to invade.
- clavicat 5y ago
  Do you really think “economic austerity” is an accurate description of the financial response to the pandemic?
  - beepbooptheory 5y ago
    I see it as an accurate description of the state-of-affairs of the US generally, whether in pandemic times or not.
- arrakis2021 5y ago
  I grew up in affordable housing in Queens, went to school in Brooklyn and remain in the heart of NY S*tty. As of reading your asinine ridiculous comment I write to you from Pomonok Houses. I invite you to come experience some “sheltered vacuum sealed lives” of the fine people here. Explain to them that they should rejoice in the wonders of economic austerity and defer their angst towards the gentrification demons of corporate America.
hotpotamus 5y ago
What's changed in 10 years? My personal feeling is from watching the remaking of the executive and judicial branches over the last decade is that the law is meaningless and merely a tool of political whims. Sadly I think people on the opposite end of the political spectrum from me would say much the same. It seems that nihilism, unlike money, does indeed trickle down.
- mcguire 5y ago
  Property crime rates in the US since 1960: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States#/media/File:Property_Crime_Rates_in_the_United_States.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States#/me... Or, if you'd rather, here's California's statistics: https://www.disastercenter.com/crime/cacrime.htm https://www.disastercenter.com/crime/cacrime.htm
jrumbut 5y ago
The difference is that 10 years ago "someone posted a video" was in its infancy as a driver of policy. Today it's quite a mature, potent force (and worthy of deconstruction). I'm having trouble figuring out what to believe, whether this is a handful of brazen thefts amid normal theft rates, a small increase, a true theft epidemic, or maybe theft has decreased even. I honestly don't know and don't know how I could gain that knowledge. Watching a few videos isn't going to do much for me though, evidence wise.
- mcguire 5y ago
  Maybe this will help: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States#/media/File:Property_Crime_Rates_in_the_United_States.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States#/me... Which is probably pulling data from the same source as https://bjs.ojp.gov/sites/g/files/xyckuh236/files/media/document/cv20.pdf https://bjs.ojp.gov/sites/g/files/xyckuh236/files/media/docu... Violent crime is another matter, with differing statistics for 2020 and 2021. on the other hand, it has quite a bit to go before it gets from 2019's 379.4/100,000 to 1990's 731.8/ 100,000. https://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm https://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm Here's California, if you want to lay an eyeball on that: https://www.disastercenter.com/crime/cacrime.htm https://www.disastercenter.com/crime/cacrime.htm Here is a good discussion of the sources of the numbers and so on: https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/11/20/facts-about-crime-in-the-u-s/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/11/20/facts-about...
jokethrowaway 5y ago
I decided not to move to the states because of how disorderly you generally (also taxes being as high as Europe for comparatively little benefits, the mental health epidemic and school shootings).
- mcguire 5y ago
  "According to the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD), total U.S. tax revenue amounted to 26 percent of GDP in 2014, with about one-third of that coming from state and local government taxes. In contrast, the OECD average was 34.4 percent of GDP and the highest rate was 50.9 percent in Denmark. "If Trump was talking about the federal income tax rate that individuals pay, Americans still do not face the highest tax rate in the world. Again according to the OECD, the country with the highest national income tax rate is the Netherlands at 52 percent, more than 12 percentage points higher than the U.S. top federal individual income rate of 39.6 percent." ("Is the U.S. the Highest Taxed Nation in the World?": https://www.crfb.org/blogs/us-highest-taxed-nation-world https://www.crfb.org/blogs/us-highest-taxed-nation-world) Note: "top federal individual income rate" is the tax bracket and your actual tax rate would only approach that as your income approaches infinity. I can't speak to mental health epidemics (twitch, twitch), and while we seem to lead the world in school shootings, they are in practice rather rare. But we are pretty disorderly.
62951413 5y ago
"their bureaucrats" - I don't remember a single election in CA/Bay Area where the GoP was in danger of winning in 10+ years. So the majority has been clearly happy with the state of affairs for a long time. They just decided not to use a unique opportunity to fire their governor. SF mayor/DA were elected recently, they never tried to hide their agenda, and they still won. What is more puzzling is that the real estate prices show no correlation with any of this 3d-world stuff. The FAANGs don't show any sign of concern for losing engineers either. So apparently they don't expect much impact.
- mcguire 5y ago
  Or perhaps it isn't really a problem, just a media-fed hysteria.
mcguire 5y ago
"Broader crime statistics paint a picture of a decreasing problem, not one on the rise. National crime statistics from the FBI show shoplifting decreasing steadily every year from 2015 through 2020, the most recent data available. Larceny — the taking of property without using force or breaking in — declined 16% between 2010 and 2019, then dipped even lower in 2020, the data indicate. "At a local level, more up-to-date statistics sharpen the image of a waning problem. Property crime in Los Angeles is up 2.6% from last year, according to LAPD numbers published Nov. 27, but down 6.6% from 2019. The category that includes shoplifting — “personal/other theft” per LAPD — is down 32% from 2019. A San Francisco Chronicle analysis of that city’s shoplifting crime data showed that the number of monthly reports had changed little in the last three years, though it also raised some major questions about the accuracy of shoplifting reporting to law enforcement. Smash-and-grab thefts are classified differently because they involve violence, trespassing and high-value hauls, and suspects have been charged with robbery, burglary or grand theft after recent incidents in L.A. and San Francisco." Anecdotes weren't data in 2010, either. Not that any body cares then or now. But that's pseudo-intellectual nonsense. How long do you expect it to be before SFPD has an officer in riot gear with military weapons in every Walgreens, convenience store, and bodega?
rasz 5y ago
>In 2010 This would have been handled. it wasnt handled in 1992 leading to public taking matters into their own hands https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/roof-koreans https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/roof-koreans

tayo42 5y ago

there's nothing different about 2010. How do you think it would have been handled? People are just realizing what they can get a way with. I worked reatil in 2010, if there was a shoplifter we were told to let it go, same as now. Police don't patrol retail stores

simplestats 5y ago
I remember Fry's used to have cops visiting daily to pick up the shoplifters they had detained. I think policies tended to be more along the lines of try to detain them, but if they become dangerous to let them go. Just watching a thief pocket something and walk out the door without saying a word to them seems nuts. I still have difficulty believing this happens in most of the country, apart from urban areas. Certainly where I live there's lots of employes working in stores and no homeless around. meanwhile downtown the stores all seem to have minimal staff and incidents seem to be pretty common.
- Jochim 5y ago
  Why should any retail worker stick their neck out for a company that's probably paying them close to minimum wage?

UncleMeat 5y ago

Could you imagine if “law and order” folks cared about wage theft remotely as much as they care about this?

mdgrech23 5y ago

bluefirebrand 5y ago

I'm not so sure. Almost 10 years ago where I was living back then, there was a large homeless tent city put up right on a courthouse lawn, to circumvent anti-camping bans in municipal parks. The courthouse land was provincial land so it didn't count. It still made crime rates skyrocket in the area, people were advised not to walk in the area alone, etc. It didn't get "handled", it festered a long while before it was finally dismantled.

beepbooptheory 5y ago

Comments like these are indicative of nothing more than the fact that many people have been able to live very sheltered, vacuum sealed lives in gentrified areas of cities for a while now. It is psychologically understandable, your shock, I would just urge you to realize that economic austerity and the crime that follows from it is not new, and is in fact more normal than otherwise.

tomjen3 5y ago
You are making the assumption that deprived areas lead to crime, but maybe it is crime that ruins areas because nobody wants to open a business there, and those who can (generally those who would provide a positive, stable influence) leave?
- beepbooptheory 5y ago
  I just dont believe that "crime" is something in itself that's like floating around, looking for communities to invade.
clavicat 5y ago
Do you really think “economic austerity” is an accurate description of the financial response to the pandemic?
- beepbooptheory 5y ago
  I see it as an accurate description of the state-of-affairs of the US generally, whether in pandemic times or not.
arrakis2021 5y ago
I grew up in affordable housing in Queens, went to school in Brooklyn and remain in the heart of NY S*tty. As of reading your asinine ridiculous comment I write to you from Pomonok Houses. I invite you to come experience some “sheltered vacuum sealed lives” of the fine people here. Explain to them that they should rejoice in the wonders of economic austerity and defer their angst towards the gentrification demons of corporate America.

hotpotamus 5y ago

What's changed in 10 years? My personal feeling is from watching the remaking of the executive and judicial branches over the last decade is that the law is meaningless and merely a tool of political whims. Sadly I think people on the opposite end of the political spectrum from me would say much the same. It seems that nihilism, unlike money, does indeed trickle down.

mcguire 5y ago
Property crime rates in the US since 1960: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States#/media/File:Property_Crime_Rates_in_the_United_States.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States#/me... Or, if you'd rather, here's California's statistics: https://www.disastercenter.com/crime/cacrime.htm https://www.disastercenter.com/crime/cacrime.htm

jrumbut 5y ago

The difference is that 10 years ago "someone posted a video" was in its infancy as a driver of policy. Today it's quite a mature, potent force (and worthy of deconstruction). I'm having trouble figuring out what to believe, whether this is a handful of brazen thefts amid normal theft rates, a small increase, a true theft epidemic, or maybe theft has decreased even. I honestly don't know and don't know how I could gain that knowledge. Watching a few videos isn't going to do much for me though, evidence wise.

mcguire 5y ago
Maybe this will help: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States#/media/File:Property_Crime_Rates_in_the_United_States.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States#/me... Which is probably pulling data from the same source as https://bjs.ojp.gov/sites/g/files/xyckuh236/files/media/document/cv20.pdf https://bjs.ojp.gov/sites/g/files/xyckuh236/files/media/docu... Violent crime is another matter, with differing statistics for 2020 and 2021. on the other hand, it has quite a bit to go before it gets from 2019's 379.4/100,000 to 1990's 731.8/ 100,000. https://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm https://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm Here's California, if you want to lay an eyeball on that: https://www.disastercenter.com/crime/cacrime.htm https://www.disastercenter.com/crime/cacrime.htm Here is a good discussion of the sources of the numbers and so on: https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/11/20/facts-about-crime-in-the-u-s/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/11/20/facts-about...

jokethrowaway 5y ago

I decided not to move to the states because of how disorderly you generally (also taxes being as high as Europe for comparatively little benefits, the mental health epidemic and school shootings).

mcguire 5y ago
"According to the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD), total U.S. tax revenue amounted to 26 percent of GDP in 2014, with about one-third of that coming from state and local government taxes. In contrast, the OECD average was 34.4 percent of GDP and the highest rate was 50.9 percent in Denmark. "If Trump was talking about the federal income tax rate that individuals pay, Americans still do not face the highest tax rate in the world. Again according to the OECD, the country with the highest national income tax rate is the Netherlands at 52 percent, more than 12 percentage points higher than the U.S. top federal individual income rate of 39.6 percent." ("Is the U.S. the Highest Taxed Nation in the World?": https://www.crfb.org/blogs/us-highest-taxed-nation-world https://www.crfb.org/blogs/us-highest-taxed-nation-world) Note: "top federal individual income rate" is the tax bracket and your actual tax rate would only approach that as your income approaches infinity. I can't speak to mental health epidemics (twitch, twitch), and while we seem to lead the world in school shootings, they are in practice rather rare. But we are pretty disorderly.

62951413 5y ago

"their bureaucrats" - I don't remember a single election in CA/Bay Area where the GoP was in danger of winning in 10+ years. So the majority has been clearly happy with the state of affairs for a long time. They just decided not to use a unique opportunity to fire their governor. SF mayor/DA were elected recently, they never tried to hide their agenda, and they still won. What is more puzzling is that the real estate prices show no correlation with any of this 3d-world stuff. The FAANGs don't show any sign of concern for losing engineers either. So apparently they don't expect much impact.

mcguire 5y ago
Or perhaps it isn't really a problem, just a media-fed hysteria.

mcguire 5y ago

"Broader crime statistics paint a picture of a decreasing problem, not one on the rise. National crime statistics from the FBI show shoplifting decreasing steadily every year from 2015 through 2020, the most recent data available. Larceny — the taking of property without using force or breaking in — declined 16% between 2010 and 2019, then dipped even lower in 2020, the data indicate. "At a local level, more up-to-date statistics sharpen the image of a waning problem. Property crime in Los Angeles is up 2.6% from last year, according to LAPD numbers published Nov. 27, but down 6.6% from 2019. The category that includes shoplifting — “personal/other theft” per LAPD — is down 32% from 2019. A San Francisco Chronicle analysis of that city’s shoplifting crime data showed that the number of monthly reports had changed little in the last three years, though it also raised some major questions about the accuracy of shoplifting reporting to law enforcement. Smash-and-grab thefts are classified differently because they involve violence, trespassing and high-value hauls, and suspects have been charged with robbery, burglary or grand theft after recent incidents in L.A. and San Francisco." Anecdotes weren't data in 2010, either. Not that any body cares then or now. But that's pseudo-intellectual nonsense. How long do you expect it to be before SFPD has an officer in riot gear with military weapons in every Walgreens, convenience store, and bodega?

rasz 5y ago

>In 2010 This would have been handled. it wasnt handled in 1992 leading to public taking matters into their own hands https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/roof-koreans https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/roof-koreans