10 ms·

The number of people in this thread not understanding the importance of not having any interference in live visuals makes me believe this won’t be fixed by Appl

The number of people in this thread not understanding the importance of not having any interference in live visuals makes me believe this won’t be fixed by Apple. Absolutely baffling.

zenexer 5y ago
If I’m forced to choose between live entertainment and a great privacy feature like this one, the privacy feature is going to win. Artists will get creative and find workarounds; other companies will fill the gap, and other commenters have pointed out cheap hardware that solves this problem.
- EricE 5y ago
  What is the benefit of forcing the stupid dot on ALL displays?!? How is offering an option for it to ONLY be visible when the menu bar is also visible compromising the notification in any way? There are software solutions like NDI that the hardware solution doesn't fix and why should I have to buy hardware to fix a problem that should have never existed in the first place? It's asinine and really not that complicated - don't show UI shit on displays that aren't showing the menu bar. There is always one display that must have a menu bar - show crap like this there and only there.
- jaywalk 5y ago
  You're clearly not involved in live entertainment, so you're not making that choice. It's also a false choice, because Apple could easily preserve privacy while also making their hardware usable for live entertainment again. Just a couple ideas off the top of my head would be to allow the user to choose which display(s) have the indicator (defaulting to all displays, of course) or adding an additional permission level for applications that are already approved for audio input to not show the indicator. It doesn't have to be an all or nothing situation if Apple is even remotely interested in addressing this use case, which they should be.
  - zenexer 5y ago
    > You're clearly not involved in live entertainment I used to be. > It's also a false choice Yes, yes it is. It's been like this for decades. Entertainers are expected to buy the most expensive hardware available even when they're just getting started. Conform or be stigmatized for using inferior technology. We're talking about an industry in which AudioQuest has no trouble selling passive 3m HDMI cables for upwards of $1k. Maybe this is the first time Apple has stepped on your toes, but it won't be the last. Be prepared to fork over the cash for a specialized dongle you wouldn't need on any other platform, lest that orange dot mar your reputation. Let's be real: this isn't going to harm Apple's sales in the slightest, and they know it. The only way they could possibly harm their reputation in the entertainment industry is by lowering their prices, opening up their ecosystem, and eliminating $1k monitor stands. They know you'll ultimately cough up the dough for an adapter, no matter how much you complain. They know you don't have a choice. They get money from me, a privacy-conscious end user with a choice, and they get money from you, a disgruntled professional without a choice.
  - labcomputer 5y ago
    > if Apple is even remotely interested in addressing this use case, which they should be. I think the reality is that the set of people who want the feature and who would use it in a live professional environment with expensive hardware and who can't afford a $100 dongle from BlackMagic is so close to the null set that Apple is unlikely to care. For goodness sake, Apple's own HDMI dongle costs $70. Just spend $30 more and buy the BM one instead.
- ratww 5y ago
  Apple is absolutely not forced to choose. They can provide a way to override it. Considering how much they love to boast about this market, I'm pretty sure they'll change it.
- Dylan16807 5y ago
  Does it have to be on every screen to be a privacy feature? It's not necessary to force that choice.
garyrichardson 5y ago
Can you explain? I have guesses but I don't think I understand.
- ARandumGuy 5y ago
  Many musicians have giant screens in their live sets, which display incredibly detailed visuals. When you're spending hundreds of thousands of dollars (if not more) on a live setup, it looks really amateurish to have an orange dot in the corner of the screen. Yes, there are workarounds. But artists shouldn't have to deal with that when it worked perfectly fine beforehand. In addition, the more stuff you add to your setup, the higher chance that something will go wrong.
  - dkonofalski 5y ago
    Professionals who spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on a live setup are not going to be using the internal I/O of their Macbook/Mac Pro. They're going to have dedicated video output cards that would not be affected by this. Those cards are specifically for having 100% control over the output. The right call her for Apple is to allow users to give permission to specific apps to disable this but let's not start with the idea that pros are outputting directly from their computers without the right hardware.
    - EricE 5y ago
      use any professional audio interfaces like DANTE? Just activating DANTE causes the stupid orange dot to show, even if you are only sending audio OUT from your Mac to, say, a digital mixing board. There is ZERO reason to force the dot on every display. Restrict it to the display(s) also showing the menu bar and this becomes a non-issue. I can't believe anyone involved in this at Apple thought this was a remotely reasonable thing to do!
    - thepasswordis 5y ago
      >Professionals who spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on a live setup are not going to be using the internal I/O of their Macbook/Mac Pro. They're going to have dedicated video output cards that would not be affected by this. Those cards are specifically for having 100% control over the output. Have you ever worked in this industry? Because yes they absolutely are. The people building the video walls (renting them), and the people actually running the visuals are not the same people.
phnofive 5y ago
I didn't understand the importance and came to this thread to learn. Please don't assume a lack of prior knowledge reflects an ongoing lack of curiosity.
- jaywalk 5y ago
  Learning is perfectly fine. But there are people here who have it explicitly explained to them, and continue on with the "so what? It's just an orange dot" line of thinking.
  - CoastalCoder 5y ago
    I would hope (guess?) that Apple uses other sources of information when trying to cater to the creative professionals. (I'm assuming Apple still makes an effort for this segment, but I really have no idea how they do things these days.)
  - AstroDogCatcher 5y ago
    Suggesting the explanation provided is insufficiently clear, no?
    - jaywalk 5y ago
      Looking through the comments, I can't imagine how else it could possibly be explained or clarified further. For this use case, it is assumed that the software producing the visuals has full control over the output. An orange dot that cannot be removed means that the software does not have full control over the output, which is unacceptable. It's that simple.
      - nightpool 5y ago
        From a sibling thread: EDIT: As far as I know, the best long-term answer here is for apps that present visuals full screen to "capture" the external display for exclusive use using an API (https://developer.apple.com/documentation/coregraphics/14562...), but that's not super common right now. Sounds like it's totally possible for the software to have full control over the output if it wants to, this only affects software that runs in a "standard" fullscreen mode without explicitly taking full control over the output.
tedunangst 5y ago
I think people are struggling to reconcile "spend $100k on a presentation setup" and "can't afford $200 output card".
- downWidOutaFite 5y ago
  While other people are struggling with "it's fine when Apple forces us to jump through a bunch of undocumented hacks and workarounds to keep doing what we bought the machine for"
  - labcomputer 5y ago
    And still others are struggling with, "How do you not understand that Apple is trying to balance the trade-offs between 'allow an app to do anything' and 'protect users from malicious software'?" I think they could do a better job (e.g., a simple setting in System Preferences that turns off recording notifications), but to pretend that they're doing this for no reason at all or that the orange dot is a show-stopper for a significant fraction of their user-base is just not making an argument in good faith.
    - Dylan16807 5y ago
      > to pretend that they're doing this for no reason at all or that the orange dot is a show-stopper for a significant fraction of their user-base is just not making an argument in good faith. Is anyone doing that...?
      - labcomputer 5y ago
        > Is anyone doing that...? Well, look at the other person who replied to my comment: "Every time this happens a small minority that is affected screams "this is interfering with my workflow" and the majority says "get over it"." That's not technically untrue, but it fails to acknowledge that there is a tradeoff here. Again, I think Apple could be doing a better job of managing the tradeoffs, but this is not simply the majority saying "get over it". This is the majority saying "it sucks that this change interrupted your workflow, but look at the bigger picture"
munk-a 5y ago
There still exists the classic solution of offsetting video output through a projector (or on a monitor using vertical alignment) to place the dot offscreen right? If we're talking about people dropping tens of thousands of dollars on equipment that feels like a modestly acceptable short term solution.
aquanext 5y ago
I still don't totally understand it and I've been looking around this thread and the article for like 5 minutes. Can you give me the simple version?
jiggawatts 5y ago
Because Apple didn't do the wrong thing. The people just plugging their Macbook into a cinema projector and expecting their general-purpose desktop OS to work just like a cinema projector controller by default are doing the wrong thing. They simply don't understand what's going on. As repeatedly said by many people, Apple is making a tradeoff between security and special-purpose requirements. If you have a special-purpose requirement, then make sure your tools are configured for that purpose. Don't whine that the general use-case doesn't fit it! You'll see similar whining from web devs trying to make Chrome or Firefox "hide" the chrome and go full screen programmatically. That's fundamentally incompatible with end-user security and shouldn't be allowed, ever. Asking for it won't get you anywhere. If you need full screen control, use something like Electron, not a web browser. If you need full screen projector/screen output, use a tool/software appropriate for the job.
geraneum 5y ago
As a macOS user, I highly appreciate it if Apple doesn’t provide an easy way for the app developers to disable that small dot either in normal or presentation mode. Of course this is my personal preference but in my opinion it should make it harder for apps to bypass that visual indicator. I want to know _with more confidence_ if an app is using the mic!
newaccount74 5y ago
Apple also hasn't fixed the Mail.app bug for years (sometimes, when you are in full screen mode, Mail.app suddenly activates and fills half the screen). Search for it. There are countless threads about the issue online, and last time I checked noone knew of a way to prevent it. Imagine holding a presentation, or watching a film with someone, and suddenly your private emails fill half the screen...

The number of people in this thread not understanding the importance of not having any interference in live visuals makes me believe this won’t be fixed by Apple. Absolutely baffling.

zenexer 5y ago

If I’m forced to choose between live entertainment and a great privacy feature like this one, the privacy feature is going to win. Artists will get creative and find workarounds; other companies will fill the gap, and other commenters have pointed out cheap hardware that solves this problem.

EricE 5y ago
What is the benefit of forcing the stupid dot on ALL displays?!? How is offering an option for it to ONLY be visible when the menu bar is also visible compromising the notification in any way? There are software solutions like NDI that the hardware solution doesn't fix and why should I have to buy hardware to fix a problem that should have never existed in the first place? It's asinine and really not that complicated - don't show UI shit on displays that aren't showing the menu bar. There is always one display that must have a menu bar - show crap like this there and only there.
jaywalk 5y ago
You're clearly not involved in live entertainment, so you're not making that choice. It's also a false choice, because Apple could easily preserve privacy while also making their hardware usable for live entertainment again. Just a couple ideas off the top of my head would be to allow the user to choose which display(s) have the indicator (defaulting to all displays, of course) or adding an additional permission level for applications that are already approved for audio input to not show the indicator. It doesn't have to be an all or nothing situation if Apple is even remotely interested in addressing this use case, which they should be.
- zenexer 5y ago
  > You're clearly not involved in live entertainment I used to be. > It's also a false choice Yes, yes it is. It's been like this for decades. Entertainers are expected to buy the most expensive hardware available even when they're just getting started. Conform or be stigmatized for using inferior technology. We're talking about an industry in which AudioQuest has no trouble selling passive 3m HDMI cables for upwards of $1k. Maybe this is the first time Apple has stepped on your toes, but it won't be the last. Be prepared to fork over the cash for a specialized dongle you wouldn't need on any other platform, lest that orange dot mar your reputation. Let's be real: this isn't going to harm Apple's sales in the slightest, and they know it. The only way they could possibly harm their reputation in the entertainment industry is by lowering their prices, opening up their ecosystem, and eliminating $1k monitor stands. They know you'll ultimately cough up the dough for an adapter, no matter how much you complain. They know you don't have a choice. They get money from me, a privacy-conscious end user with a choice, and they get money from you, a disgruntled professional without a choice.
- labcomputer 5y ago
  > if Apple is even remotely interested in addressing this use case, which they should be. I think the reality is that the set of people who want the feature and who would use it in a live professional environment with expensive hardware and who can't afford a $100 dongle from BlackMagic is so close to the null set that Apple is unlikely to care. For goodness sake, Apple's own HDMI dongle costs $70. Just spend $30 more and buy the BM one instead.
ratww 5y ago
Apple is absolutely not forced to choose. They can provide a way to override it. Considering how much they love to boast about this market, I'm pretty sure they'll change it.
Dylan16807 5y ago
Does it have to be on every screen to be a privacy feature? It's not necessary to force that choice.

garyrichardson 5y ago

Can you explain? I have guesses but I don't think I understand.

ARandumGuy 5y ago
Many musicians have giant screens in their live sets, which display incredibly detailed visuals. When you're spending hundreds of thousands of dollars (if not more) on a live setup, it looks really amateurish to have an orange dot in the corner of the screen. Yes, there are workarounds. But artists shouldn't have to deal with that when it worked perfectly fine beforehand. In addition, the more stuff you add to your setup, the higher chance that something will go wrong.
- dkonofalski 5y ago
  Professionals who spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on a live setup are not going to be using the internal I/O of their Macbook/Mac Pro. They're going to have dedicated video output cards that would not be affected by this. Those cards are specifically for having 100% control over the output. The right call her for Apple is to allow users to give permission to specific apps to disable this but let's not start with the idea that pros are outputting directly from their computers without the right hardware.
  - EricE 5y ago
    use any professional audio interfaces like DANTE? Just activating DANTE causes the stupid orange dot to show, even if you are only sending audio OUT from your Mac to, say, a digital mixing board. There is ZERO reason to force the dot on every display. Restrict it to the display(s) also showing the menu bar and this becomes a non-issue. I can't believe anyone involved in this at Apple thought this was a remotely reasonable thing to do!
  - thepasswordis 5y ago
    >Professionals who spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on a live setup are not going to be using the internal I/O of their Macbook/Mac Pro. They're going to have dedicated video output cards that would not be affected by this. Those cards are specifically for having 100% control over the output. Have you ever worked in this industry? Because yes they absolutely are. The people building the video walls (renting them), and the people actually running the visuals are not the same people.

phnofive 5y ago

I didn't understand the importance and came to this thread to learn. Please don't assume a lack of prior knowledge reflects an ongoing lack of curiosity.

jaywalk 5y ago
Learning is perfectly fine. But there are people here who have it explicitly explained to them, and continue on with the "so what? It's just an orange dot" line of thinking.
- CoastalCoder 5y ago
  I would hope (guess?) that Apple uses other sources of information when trying to cater to the creative professionals. (I'm assuming Apple still makes an effort for this segment, but I really have no idea how they do things these days.)
- AstroDogCatcher 5y ago
  Suggesting the explanation provided is insufficiently clear, no?
  - jaywalk 5y ago
    Looking through the comments, I can't imagine how else it could possibly be explained or clarified further. For this use case, it is assumed that the software producing the visuals has full control over the output. An orange dot that cannot be removed means that the software does not have full control over the output, which is unacceptable. It's that simple.
    - nightpool 5y ago
      From a sibling thread: EDIT: As far as I know, the best long-term answer here is for apps that present visuals full screen to "capture" the external display for exclusive use using an API (https://developer.apple.com/documentation/coregraphics/14562...), but that's not super common right now. Sounds like it's totally possible for the software to have full control over the output if it wants to, this only affects software that runs in a "standard" fullscreen mode without explicitly taking full control over the output.

tedunangst 5y ago

I think people are struggling to reconcile "spend $100k on a presentation setup" and "can't afford $200 output card".

downWidOutaFite 5y ago
While other people are struggling with "it's fine when Apple forces us to jump through a bunch of undocumented hacks and workarounds to keep doing what we bought the machine for"
- labcomputer 5y ago
  And still others are struggling with, "How do you not understand that Apple is trying to balance the trade-offs between 'allow an app to do anything' and 'protect users from malicious software'?" I think they could do a better job (e.g., a simple setting in System Preferences that turns off recording notifications), but to pretend that they're doing this for no reason at all or that the orange dot is a show-stopper for a significant fraction of their user-base is just not making an argument in good faith.
  - Dylan16807 5y ago
    > to pretend that they're doing this for no reason at all or that the orange dot is a show-stopper for a significant fraction of their user-base is just not making an argument in good faith. Is anyone doing that...?
    - labcomputer 5y ago
      > Is anyone doing that...? Well, look at the other person who replied to my comment: "Every time this happens a small minority that is affected screams "this is interfering with my workflow" and the majority says "get over it"." That's not technically untrue, but it fails to acknowledge that there is a tradeoff here. Again, I think Apple could be doing a better job of managing the tradeoffs, but this is not simply the majority saying "get over it". This is the majority saying "it sucks that this change interrupted your workflow, but look at the bigger picture"

munk-a 5y ago

There still exists the classic solution of offsetting video output through a projector (or on a monitor using vertical alignment) to place the dot offscreen right? If we're talking about people dropping tens of thousands of dollars on equipment that feels like a modestly acceptable short term solution.

aquanext 5y ago

I still don't totally understand it and I've been looking around this thread and the article for like 5 minutes. Can you give me the simple version?

jiggawatts 5y ago

Because Apple didn't do the wrong thing. The people just plugging their Macbook into a cinema projector and expecting their general-purpose desktop OS to work just like a cinema projector controller by default are doing the wrong thing. They simply don't understand what's going on. As repeatedly said by many people, Apple is making a tradeoff between security and special-purpose requirements. If you have a special-purpose requirement, then make sure your tools are configured for that purpose. Don't whine that the general use-case doesn't fit it! You'll see similar whining from web devs trying to make Chrome or Firefox "hide" the chrome and go full screen programmatically. That's fundamentally incompatible with end-user security and shouldn't be allowed, ever. Asking for it won't get you anywhere. If you need full screen control, use something like Electron, not a web browser. If you need full screen projector/screen output, use a tool/software appropriate for the job.

geraneum 5y ago

As a macOS user, I highly appreciate it if Apple doesn’t provide an easy way for the app developers to disable that small dot either in normal or presentation mode. Of course this is my personal preference but in my opinion it should make it harder for apps to bypass that visual indicator. I want to know _with more confidence_ if an app is using the mic!

newaccount74 5y ago

Apple also hasn't fixed the Mail.app bug for years (sometimes, when you are in full screen mode, Mail.app suddenly activates and fills half the screen). Search for it. There are countless threads about the issue online, and last time I checked noone knew of a way to prevent it. Imagine holding a presentation, or watching a film with someone, and suddenly your private emails fill half the screen...