8 ms·

Germany Electricity Prices Hit Record €431 per MWh

47 points by SQL2219 5y ago

ac29 5y ago
In terms more common to Americans, this is about 49c/kWh. Is this for generation only or generation and delivery? Here in California I pay about 28c/kWh which is typical (total for generation and delivery), but CA is one of the most expensive states I think.
- 404mm 5y ago
  I pay about 12c/kWh (total, residential rate) in TX
glecedric 5y ago
In the same thread, there is France with a price of 645€. I don't understand why a country loaded with nuclear reaction can beat Germany in price. Or maybe does it mean that the neighboring country are willing to pay France this much because they are desperate, but in this case why not buy the electricity from Germany at 432€ ?.
- stdbrouw 5y ago
  A number of reactors in France are down at the moment: https://www.reuters.com/markets/europe/edf-extend-civaux-nuclear-outage-shut-down-reactors-chooz-safety-measures-2021-12-15/ https://www.reuters.com/markets/europe/edf-extend-civaux-nuc...
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- Arnt 5y ago
  I think the answer you may be looking for is: Nuclear reactors are unreliable. Compare them to solar, which is very different. Solar produces power according to sunshine, with no moving parts, and if a panel breaks the rest of the panels go on working, so the failure is a small deterioration in power output. Nuclear plants are differently unreliable, because they have lots of moving parts and elaborate maintenance procedures, and during maintenance a plant produces 0% power instead of that small deterioration. The unreliability is on a different timescale, both better and worse than solar. France has lots of reactors, but they're not all up, and you can't expect all to be up, so sometimes they'll have this problem. IIRC they had something similar in 2016, which they were able to solve using imports.
  - CRConrad 5y ago
    > Nuclear reactors are unreliable. Compare them to solar, which is very different. > Solar produces power according to sunshine So, according to weather. Which isn't exactly renowned for being reliable. This is about wind power, not solar, but another tweet I saw recently mentioned "Solar availability in mid-winter: 0 %" It's also in Swedish, but the picture speaks for itself. https://mobile.twitter.com/HenrikSundstrom/status/1472654421322571779 https://mobile.twitter.com/HenrikSundstrom/status/1472654421...
  - hulitu 5y ago
    > I think the answer you may be looking for is: Nuclear reactors are unreliable. Compare them to solar, which is very different. You should come in southern Germany to see how reliable is solar when half of the year there is foggy.
    - Arnt 5y ago
      Right. Solar depends on the weather and is unreliable in that respect, but reliable against mechanical problems. Nuclear is the opposite. More and less reliable.
    - pydry 5y ago
      In 2011 the nuclear industry promised rolling blackouts by now: https://theguardian.com/environment/2011/may/23/germany-nuclear-shutdown-winter-blackouts https://theguardian.com/environment/2011/may/23/germany-nucl... Pretty sure they didnt envision Germany having cheaper winter electricity than France. All I can find evidence for is a balloon that short circuited a substation, which is a blackout that is unlikely to have been prevented by a nuclear reactor.
      - moooo99 5y ago
        > Pretty sure they didnt envision Germany having cheaper winter electricity than France. Unfortunately that does not reflect at all in the consumer price. We have been taking top spots in the energy price rankings for years now and there is no real hope for improvements.
- srg0 5y ago
  According to electricityMap, France is importing 3.58GW from Germany right now. And from all other neighbors, except Great Britain. https://app.electricitymap.org/map https://app.electricitymap.org/map
SQL2219 5y ago
how do European data centers make sense in this scenario?
- milkytron 5y ago
  I'm not sure if they make the most sense for efficiency, but depending on what those data centers are used for, they may be required to be in the EU.
- nix23 5y ago
  In germany they don't even get subsidized because "they don't produce anything", when you want the most expensive computing power you go to germany. >Everything you wanted to know about data center design (but did not know who to ask) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-3YRUFBbrA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-3YRUFBbrA
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- watermelon0 5y ago
  AWS has ~20% higher prices for compute (EC2) in Frankfurt compared to N. Virginia, which doesn't seem that much higher. Additionally, one of the cheapest dedicated server provider (Hetzner) has two data centers in Germany.
- guruz 5y ago
  network latency? Data protection laws?
- hotpotamus 5y ago
  I wonder how economical it becomes to run their own generation at some point. I know in the US I've seen datacenters that will switch over to backup generators at peak demand times as part of load shedding agreements, but I don't have any idea on the economics (other than running your own diesel generators must be more expensive than grid power).
everybodyknows 5y ago
For comparison, during last year's freeze in Texas ERCOT prices hit ~€8000 per MWh. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-electricity-texas-prices-idUSKBN2AF19A https://www.reuters.com/article/us-electricity-texas-prices-...
- jiveturkey42 5y ago
  Is this a valid comparison? The issue in Texas was due to faulted generation which automatically triggered a cascade of tariffs - all of which were resolved and not billed to customers.
  - londons_explore 5y ago
    As soon as customers don't pay market rate, because for example a regulator steps in and bails someone out, there is zero incentive to conserve a scarce product. It's like being given the company credit card and being told "spend whatever you like, bezos will pay the bill".
    - jiveturkey42 5y ago
      Again, not a valid comparison. The massive tariff increase was due to a hardware failure, not market pressures. It would like being given a credit card, with unforeseeable terms and conditions occurring outside the scope of your contract which are then resolved later in the month
      - deniablenexus 5y ago
        It's not a exact comparison due to the winter storm, but ERCOT does see wholesale prices $1000+ MWh during the summer peaks and super peaks.
  - 404mm 5y ago
    No, it’s not a valid comp at all. 1. Those prices came only from certain resellers, majority Texans were not affected by this. 2. People ended up having to pay that. ERGOT said those prices were valid and people got fucked. This happened because ERGOT temporarily remove a cap on prices to retain stability during shutdown, allowing certain entities to take advantage of this. In my opinion, while this was not against the law, it was criminal in nature.
MomoXenosaga 5y ago
Putin is a corrupt criminal and Russians deserve better but he was not wrong when he told the EU that they were dumb. Closing down coal and nuclear plants without having an alternative that doesn't involve gas (laughs in Gazprom) and signing up to climate change treaties without knowing how to achieve those goals... It looks good on camera we'll deal with the issues later! But at least Europe shares this misery with China who find themselves in the same predicament.
- adriancr 5y ago
  It's easy to criticise, its not like Putin has been doing a good job with Russian economy
- fifilura 5y ago
  What is your view on the alternative: "Not signing up on climate treaties an considering them optional"?
  - t0mas88 5y ago
    That's what the US did. And in a pure local view it's the best (but selfish) choice for them. Climate change is a clear case of the prisoners dilemma. If you decide not to play along, use coal, you are better off from your perspective. But if everyone cooperates and agrees to limit climate impact in the long term everyone is better off.
    - fifilura 5y ago
      I guess being part of an attempt to break the stalemate would qualify as "dumb".
  - lp0_on_fire 5y ago
    There's another alternative: "Push climate treaties that set goals based on current scientific and economic realities".
- rasz 5y ago
  Putin thinks EU politicians are dumb because HE himself orchestrated nuclear shutdown in Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerhard_Schr%C3%B6der#Relationship_with_Gazprom_and_Rosneft https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerhard_Schr%C3%B6der#Relation... >In his first term, Schröder's government decided to phase out nuclear power >As Chancellor, Gerhard Schröder was a strong advocate of the Nord Stream pipeline project, which now supplies Russian gas directly to Germany >In 2016, Schröder switched to become manager of Nord Stream 2, an expansion of the original pipeline in which Gazprom is sole shareholder.[92] >In 2017, Russia nominated Schröder to also serve as an independent director of the board of its biggest oil producer Rosneft.

47 points by SQL2219 5y ago

ac29 5y ago

In terms more common to Americans, this is about 49c/kWh. Is this for generation only or generation and delivery? Here in California I pay about 28c/kWh which is typical (total for generation and delivery), but CA is one of the most expensive states I think.

404mm 5y ago
I pay about 12c/kWh (total, residential rate) in TX

glecedric 5y ago

In the same thread, there is France with a price of 645€. I don't understand why a country loaded with nuclear reaction can beat Germany in price. Or maybe does it mean that the neighboring country are willing to pay France this much because they are desperate, but in this case why not buy the electricity from Germany at 432€ ?.

stdbrouw 5y ago
A number of reactors in France are down at the moment: https://www.reuters.com/markets/europe/edf-extend-civaux-nuclear-outage-shut-down-reactors-chooz-safety-measures-2021-12-15/ https://www.reuters.com/markets/europe/edf-extend-civaux-nuc...
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
Arnt 5y ago
I think the answer you may be looking for is: Nuclear reactors are unreliable. Compare them to solar, which is very different. Solar produces power according to sunshine, with no moving parts, and if a panel breaks the rest of the panels go on working, so the failure is a small deterioration in power output. Nuclear plants are differently unreliable, because they have lots of moving parts and elaborate maintenance procedures, and during maintenance a plant produces 0% power instead of that small deterioration. The unreliability is on a different timescale, both better and worse than solar. France has lots of reactors, but they're not all up, and you can't expect all to be up, so sometimes they'll have this problem. IIRC they had something similar in 2016, which they were able to solve using imports.
- CRConrad 5y ago
  > Nuclear reactors are unreliable. Compare them to solar, which is very different. > Solar produces power according to sunshine So, according to weather. Which isn't exactly renowned for being reliable. This is about wind power, not solar, but another tweet I saw recently mentioned "Solar availability in mid-winter: 0 %" It's also in Swedish, but the picture speaks for itself. https://mobile.twitter.com/HenrikSundstrom/status/1472654421322571779 https://mobile.twitter.com/HenrikSundstrom/status/1472654421...
- hulitu 5y ago
  > I think the answer you may be looking for is: Nuclear reactors are unreliable. Compare them to solar, which is very different. You should come in southern Germany to see how reliable is solar when half of the year there is foggy.
  - Arnt 5y ago
    Right. Solar depends on the weather and is unreliable in that respect, but reliable against mechanical problems. Nuclear is the opposite. More and less reliable.
  - pydry 5y ago
    In 2011 the nuclear industry promised rolling blackouts by now: https://theguardian.com/environment/2011/may/23/germany-nuclear-shutdown-winter-blackouts https://theguardian.com/environment/2011/may/23/germany-nucl... Pretty sure they didnt envision Germany having cheaper winter electricity than France. All I can find evidence for is a balloon that short circuited a substation, which is a blackout that is unlikely to have been prevented by a nuclear reactor.
    - moooo99 5y ago
      > Pretty sure they didnt envision Germany having cheaper winter electricity than France. Unfortunately that does not reflect at all in the consumer price. We have been taking top spots in the energy price rankings for years now and there is no real hope for improvements.
srg0 5y ago
According to electricityMap, France is importing 3.58GW from Germany right now. And from all other neighbors, except Great Britain. https://app.electricitymap.org/map https://app.electricitymap.org/map

SQL2219 5y ago

how do European data centers make sense in this scenario?

milkytron 5y ago
I'm not sure if they make the most sense for efficiency, but depending on what those data centers are used for, they may be required to be in the EU.
nix23 5y ago
In germany they don't even get subsidized because "they don't produce anything", when you want the most expensive computing power you go to germany. >Everything you wanted to know about data center design (but did not know who to ask) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-3YRUFBbrA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-3YRUFBbrA
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
watermelon0 5y ago
AWS has ~20% higher prices for compute (EC2) in Frankfurt compared to N. Virginia, which doesn't seem that much higher. Additionally, one of the cheapest dedicated server provider (Hetzner) has two data centers in Germany.
guruz 5y ago
network latency? Data protection laws?
hotpotamus 5y ago
I wonder how economical it becomes to run their own generation at some point. I know in the US I've seen datacenters that will switch over to backup generators at peak demand times as part of load shedding agreements, but I don't have any idea on the economics (other than running your own diesel generators must be more expensive than grid power).

everybodyknows 5y ago

For comparison, during last year's freeze in Texas ERCOT prices hit ~€8000 per MWh. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-electricity-texas-prices-idUSKBN2AF19A https://www.reuters.com/article/us-electricity-texas-prices-...

jiveturkey42 5y ago
Is this a valid comparison? The issue in Texas was due to faulted generation which automatically triggered a cascade of tariffs - all of which were resolved and not billed to customers.
- londons_explore 5y ago
  As soon as customers don't pay market rate, because for example a regulator steps in and bails someone out, there is zero incentive to conserve a scarce product. It's like being given the company credit card and being told "spend whatever you like, bezos will pay the bill".
  - jiveturkey42 5y ago
    Again, not a valid comparison. The massive tariff increase was due to a hardware failure, not market pressures. It would like being given a credit card, with unforeseeable terms and conditions occurring outside the scope of your contract which are then resolved later in the month
    - deniablenexus 5y ago
      It's not a exact comparison due to the winter storm, but ERCOT does see wholesale prices $1000+ MWh during the summer peaks and super peaks.
- 404mm 5y ago
  No, it’s not a valid comp at all. 1. Those prices came only from certain resellers, majority Texans were not affected by this. 2. People ended up having to pay that. ERGOT said those prices were valid and people got fucked. This happened because ERGOT temporarily remove a cap on prices to retain stability during shutdown, allowing certain entities to take advantage of this. In my opinion, while this was not against the law, it was criminal in nature.

MomoXenosaga 5y ago

Putin is a corrupt criminal and Russians deserve better but he was not wrong when he told the EU that they were dumb. Closing down coal and nuclear plants without having an alternative that doesn't involve gas (laughs in Gazprom) and signing up to climate change treaties without knowing how to achieve those goals... It looks good on camera we'll deal with the issues later! But at least Europe shares this misery with China who find themselves in the same predicament.

adriancr 5y ago
It's easy to criticise, its not like Putin has been doing a good job with Russian economy
fifilura 5y ago
What is your view on the alternative: "Not signing up on climate treaties an considering them optional"?
- t0mas88 5y ago
  That's what the US did. And in a pure local view it's the best (but selfish) choice for them. Climate change is a clear case of the prisoners dilemma. If you decide not to play along, use coal, you are better off from your perspective. But if everyone cooperates and agrees to limit climate impact in the long term everyone is better off.
  - fifilura 5y ago
    I guess being part of an attempt to break the stalemate would qualify as "dumb".
- lp0_on_fire 5y ago
  There's another alternative: "Push climate treaties that set goals based on current scientific and economic realities".
rasz 5y ago
Putin thinks EU politicians are dumb because HE himself orchestrated nuclear shutdown in Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerhard_Schr%C3%B6der#Relationship_with_Gazprom_and_Rosneft https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerhard_Schr%C3%B6der#Relation... >In his first term, Schröder's government decided to phase out nuclear power >As Chancellor, Gerhard Schröder was a strong advocate of the Nord Stream pipeline project, which now supplies Russian gas directly to Germany >In 2016, Schröder switched to become manager of Nord Stream 2, an expansion of the original pipeline in which Gazprom is sole shareholder.[92] >In 2017, Russia nominated Schröder to also serve as an independent director of the board of its biggest oil producer Rosneft.