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The germans' attitude to privacy is... incoherent, to put it mildly. People get up in arms about the weirdest things, such as the Google Street View you mention

The germans' attitude to privacy is... incoherent, to put it mildly. People get up in arms about the weirdest things, such as the Google Street View you mention. Thousands of people see an apartment building's facade every day, so what does blurring it on Google Maps give the residents, privacy-wise? And yet, people are amazingly complacent în other aspects ("War halt immer so"). For example, your apartment's doorbell has to have your last name on it: someone with an unusual name could conceivably be tracked down just by postal code. For another example, when I was blogging, I had to display my full name and address in an Impressum on the website - dox myself, so to speak. And, of course, the Berlin government forces people to register their address, and allows everyone to query it, because why wouldn't they: https://service.berlin.de/dienstleistung/120732/ https://service.berlin.de/dienstleistung/120732/

moooo99 5y ago
I absolutely hate the attitude towards privacy here. The street view example is just perfect: people require google to blur their building facade but the same people have no problem having their full name (incl. partners name), phone number and address on a publicly searchable online phonebook. People constantly complain about the greedy tech companies collecting data where ever they can and proceed to complain about the strict privacy regulations in the EU in their next sentence. Forcing private individuals to put their full name and address into the imprint of their personal website, which often enough isn’t even run for profit, seems absolutely absurd and very publishing hostile. To me it’s more and more starting to seem like people don’t actually care about their privacy, they just want to be against something.
- jhgb 5y ago
  > people require google to blur their building facade but the same people have no problem having their full name (incl. partners name), phone number and address on a publicly searchable online phonebook Wait...so people can decide which facts about their life they want to remain private and which they're fine with you knowing? I thought that was the whole idea of self-determination. Where's the catch?
  - moooo99 5y ago
    Please explain, what about my building facade is so incredible private? Sensitive information is blurred anyways and google won’t publish anything that is private, they are just taking pictures of public spaces, which is totally legal.
    - jhgb 5y ago
      > Please explain, what about my building facade is so incredible private? Your building's facade is whatever you decide it to be. It doesn't matter what other people think, it's not up to them. So, likewise, you're not the one to say that someone's building's facade is not private. A major part of respect for other people's privacy is letting them decide what they're private about. I mean, sure, lots of impolite things you may be doing are still legal. Laws don't define courtesy.
- sdoering 5y ago
  How do you know it is the "same people". In my case it is actually the other way around. I had no problem with street view but would never list my number in the public phone book. I selectively decide what to attribute to my name as long as I am able to. So that I for example decided that I am OK with the need to have an imprint on my website and my full name and address being tied to what I write there. I understand that this isn't for everybody, but I decided that I was okay with attaching my name to my writing. But I am not okay with random businesses being allowed to spam me via online generated profiles without me knowing or consenting. I know there are a lot of things that still should be massively better in Germany. But knowing how easy it is to comply with the GDPR and relevant other regulations I actually like them.
jhgb 5y ago
> For example, your apartment's doorbell has to have your last name on it Uh...whose last name would you put on that doorbell? Someone else's who doesn't live there?
- nmstoker 5y ago
  You appear to presuppose that a name is necessary. In plenty of places it's perfectly fine to have a bell with just a number.
  - jhgb 5y ago
    Well, I live in a place where doorbells are attached to people. It's not "necessary" but, just for starters, you might not even get your mail if a signature for something is required.
    - nmstoker 5y ago
      Maybe it's different in some places but your delivery example seems like it would rarely cause problems as deliveries are usually addressed to addresses with a house name/house number and/or flat number, so they'd ring the corresponding bell for the house/flat number and then ask for the signature connected to the named recipient. I've never heard of a delivery person say they wouldn't delivery an item because there was no name on the bell or that the bell name wasn't consistent with the recipient, and those guys are experts at excuses for why they can't/won't make a delivery!
      - jhgb 5y ago
        > I've never heard of a delivery person say they wouldn't delivery an item because there was no name on the bell or that the bell name wasn't consistent with the recipient That's exactly what our post will do to you. (And not just because they don't know what doorbell to use if there's no name on it.)
  - raxxorrax 5y ago
    There is no such law that requires you to put your name on your doorbell in Germany. You are free to use Santa Clause or whatever. Perhaps the post man will at some point put dog shit in your letter box but otherwise there is nothing that would compell you to use your name.
addandsubtract 5y ago
It doesn't allow "everyone" to query it. You need to be a german citizen. You also need to provide either "gender and birth date" or the "address" of the person you're looking for, along with their full name.
- fsw 5y ago
  It also cost 5 to 30 EUR per query/person and takes several weeks.
raxxorrax 5y ago
> Thousands of people see an apartment building's facade every day, so what does blurring it on Google Maps give the residents, privacy-wise? Same principle as with password hashes were you might prefer a slow hashing function with a work factor. I don't necessarily agree with the streetview restriction, but also don't really mind not letting Google make pictures. You actually don't need to put your name on your doorbell, but that at least has very practical advantages for yourself. Berlin is a failure of government since time immemorial but I am not familiar with this law.
mpweiher 5y ago
> And, of course, the Berlin government forces people to register their address Meldepflicht is in all of Germany, it's not a Berlin thing. > and allows everyone to query it, because why wouldn't they: This is highly controversial, for exactly the reasons you might think. However, this is an "Einzelauskunft", so you get one address per query, and you are not allowed to trade in those addresses or use them for advertising. Also, if you want more detailed info, you have to provide a valid reason for wanting them.
Barrin92 5y ago
>so what does blurring it on Google Maps give the residents, privacy-wise? ephemerality. If you think your neighbor is violating your privacy you can take it up with them, you think you can take on Google? There is no incoherence here. If you live in a neighborhood, there are of course certain natural limits to your privacy given that you're part of a community. But digital privacy laws first and foremost protect citizens from entities well beyond their control, they protect them from automated processing, storage of their data beyond their own borders, and privacy erosion in ways they cannot control and at a scale that creates entirely new problems. Of course nobody has absolute privacy, everyone can overhear a conversation, but this does not end with a surveillance state or control society. Corporate entities or governments processing billions of messages in real time does.

moooo99 5y ago

I absolutely hate the attitude towards privacy here. The street view example is just perfect: people require google to blur their building facade but the same people have no problem having their full name (incl. partners name), phone number and address on a publicly searchable online phonebook. People constantly complain about the greedy tech companies collecting data where ever they can and proceed to complain about the strict privacy regulations in the EU in their next sentence. Forcing private individuals to put their full name and address into the imprint of their personal website, which often enough isn’t even run for profit, seems absolutely absurd and very publishing hostile. To me it’s more and more starting to seem like people don’t actually care about their privacy, they just want to be against something.

jhgb 5y ago
> people require google to blur their building facade but the same people have no problem having their full name (incl. partners name), phone number and address on a publicly searchable online phonebook Wait...so people can decide which facts about their life they want to remain private and which they're fine with you knowing? I thought that was the whole idea of self-determination. Where's the catch?
- moooo99 5y ago
  Please explain, what about my building facade is so incredible private? Sensitive information is blurred anyways and google won’t publish anything that is private, they are just taking pictures of public spaces, which is totally legal.
  - jhgb 5y ago
    > Please explain, what about my building facade is so incredible private? Your building's facade is whatever you decide it to be. It doesn't matter what other people think, it's not up to them. So, likewise, you're not the one to say that someone's building's facade is not private. A major part of respect for other people's privacy is letting them decide what they're private about. I mean, sure, lots of impolite things you may be doing are still legal. Laws don't define courtesy.
sdoering 5y ago
How do you know it is the "same people". In my case it is actually the other way around. I had no problem with street view but would never list my number in the public phone book. I selectively decide what to attribute to my name as long as I am able to. So that I for example decided that I am OK with the need to have an imprint on my website and my full name and address being tied to what I write there. I understand that this isn't for everybody, but I decided that I was okay with attaching my name to my writing. But I am not okay with random businesses being allowed to spam me via online generated profiles without me knowing or consenting. I know there are a lot of things that still should be massively better in Germany. But knowing how easy it is to comply with the GDPR and relevant other regulations I actually like them.

jhgb 5y ago

> For example, your apartment's doorbell has to have your last name on it Uh...whose last name would you put on that doorbell? Someone else's who doesn't live there?

nmstoker 5y ago
You appear to presuppose that a name is necessary. In plenty of places it's perfectly fine to have a bell with just a number.
- jhgb 5y ago
  Well, I live in a place where doorbells are attached to people. It's not "necessary" but, just for starters, you might not even get your mail if a signature for something is required.
  - nmstoker 5y ago
    Maybe it's different in some places but your delivery example seems like it would rarely cause problems as deliveries are usually addressed to addresses with a house name/house number and/or flat number, so they'd ring the corresponding bell for the house/flat number and then ask for the signature connected to the named recipient. I've never heard of a delivery person say they wouldn't delivery an item because there was no name on the bell or that the bell name wasn't consistent with the recipient, and those guys are experts at excuses for why they can't/won't make a delivery!
    - jhgb 5y ago
      > I've never heard of a delivery person say they wouldn't delivery an item because there was no name on the bell or that the bell name wasn't consistent with the recipient That's exactly what our post will do to you. (And not just because they don't know what doorbell to use if there's no name on it.)
- raxxorrax 5y ago
  There is no such law that requires you to put your name on your doorbell in Germany. You are free to use Santa Clause or whatever. Perhaps the post man will at some point put dog shit in your letter box but otherwise there is nothing that would compell you to use your name.

addandsubtract 5y ago

It doesn't allow "everyone" to query it. You need to be a german citizen. You also need to provide either "gender and birth date" or the "address" of the person you're looking for, along with their full name.

fsw 5y ago
It also cost 5 to 30 EUR per query/person and takes several weeks.

raxxorrax 5y ago

> Thousands of people see an apartment building's facade every day, so what does blurring it on Google Maps give the residents, privacy-wise? Same principle as with password hashes were you might prefer a slow hashing function with a work factor. I don't necessarily agree with the streetview restriction, but also don't really mind not letting Google make pictures. You actually don't need to put your name on your doorbell, but that at least has very practical advantages for yourself. Berlin is a failure of government since time immemorial but I am not familiar with this law.

mpweiher 5y ago

> And, of course, the Berlin government forces people to register their address Meldepflicht is in all of Germany, it's not a Berlin thing. > and allows everyone to query it, because why wouldn't they: This is highly controversial, for exactly the reasons you might think. However, this is an "Einzelauskunft", so you get one address per query, and you are not allowed to trade in those addresses or use them for advertising. Also, if you want more detailed info, you have to provide a valid reason for wanting them.

Barrin92 5y ago

>so what does blurring it on Google Maps give the residents, privacy-wise? ephemerality. If you think your neighbor is violating your privacy you can take it up with them, you think you can take on Google? There is no incoherence here. If you live in a neighborhood, there are of course certain natural limits to your privacy given that you're part of a community. But digital privacy laws first and foremost protect citizens from entities well beyond their control, they protect them from automated processing, storage of their data beyond their own borders, and privacy erosion in ways they cannot control and at a scale that creates entirely new problems. Of course nobody has absolute privacy, everyone can overhear a conversation, but this does not end with a surveillance state or control society. Corporate entities or governments processing billions of messages in real time does.