6 ms·

wait till you realize what's happening in the rest of the world. where people work much harder and still don't get by.

halfdan 5y ago
That's classic whataboutism. That doesn't explain away why it's that bad in the US nor does it justify accepting the status quo.
smt88 5y ago
"It's worse somewhere else" isn't relevant to whether it's acceptable in the US. The US has the resources to reward hard workers with financial stability. It also benefits from brain-draining other countries with this promise. If the US continues to slide away from the "American Dream," the brains and prosperity will end up somewhere else.
- kkjjkgjjgg 5y ago
  So how much do you want to pay for bottle collecting? When you say "the US has the resources to reward hard workers", in this case you mean everybody who buys a bottle should pay more. Or how would you envision it to play out?
  - zeckalpha 5y ago
    Many places use a deposit system, where if you return the packaging for recycling, you get your money back. This cuts down on litter, at no cost to those who recycle.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - kkjjkgjjgg 5y ago
      But presumably, the higher the price for returning bottles, the less likely people will be to just dump them on the street, for the collectors to collect? Or it will become attractive for more collectors. In any case, it may not be so simple to raise their "wage" for collecting bottles.
      - zeckalpha 5y ago
        Many people will dump on the street (or in cans the collectors tend to) even if the deposit tripled.
  - smt88 5y ago
    We could easily turn bottle-collecting into a job with guaranteed hours and pay. Bottle-collecting is a poor example for the broader issue I was discussing. Those programs are intended for the (mostly homeless) poor to pick up trash they see instead of leaving it behind. It does what it's supposed to do.
- jimbokun 5y ago
  > The US has the resources to reward hard workers with financial stability. Most hard workers in the U.S. are rewarded with financial stability. Not everyone, but enough that people still flock here from other countries where that's less true. > It also benefits from brain-draining other countries with this promise. Well gee, I guess the U.S. should stop being such a great place for immigrants, so talented people stop coming here and stay wherever they live now.
  - smt88 5y ago
    > Most hard workers in the U.S. are rewarded with financial stability. Not everyone, but enough that people still flock here from other countries where that's less true. You think restaurant workers are lazy? Factory workers? Amazon fulfillment workers? Why do people need two or three exhausting jobs to make a living? > Well gee, I guess the U.S. should stop being such a great place for immigrants, so talented people stop coming here and stay wherever they live now. I don't know what this means. Have the courage to say what you mean instead of using sarcasm. Whatever you mean, the US needs young workers to resolve our massive labor shortage and we need educated workers to be our next generation of scientists, doctors, engineers, and entrepreneurs.
    - jimbokun 5y ago
      > Why do people need two or three exhausting jobs to make a living? Most. Not all. The U.S. can still do better, but there needs to be some perspective on how the U.S. stacks up against the rest of the world. Better than most countries, not as good as some. > Whatever you mean, the US needs young workers to resolve our massive labor shortage and we need educated workers to be our next generation of scientists, doctors, engineers, and entrepreneurs. Brain drain sounded to me like the U.S. attracting those people is a bad thing, because those people should stay in their own countries. That's not what you meant to imply? We do need educated workers to fill the jobs you describe, but at the same time we probably send too many young people to college, many of whom would do better with solid technical skills training leading directly to jobs with far less debt.
      - 5y ago
bryanrasmussen 5y ago
Or, if you take another section of the rest of the world wait till you realize what's happening in the rest of the world where people work less hard and don't have it that bad.
- hunterb123 5y ago
  Then hopefully immigrants are also going there and enjoying that system, if it supports them, wherever it may be.
  - nopenopenopeno 5y ago
    FYI a great many immigrants were rich when they immigrated. A lot of rich people come to America because America offers so much opportunity to people who are already wealthy. Immigrants from overseas are especially likely to be wealthy. Indian-Americans are the wealthiest ethnic demographic in America simply because migrating from India pretty much requires being very wealthy to begin with.
    - hunterb123 5y ago
      Nothing I said indicated the immigrants were rich or poor, the majority are poor though. My point was if there's a nicer system than the US, immigrants will be flocking there too. Luckily we have numbers on the rates of which people immigrate to which countries, and the average wages of citizens of those countries. > Indian-Americans are the richest ethnic minority in America because migrating from India pretty much requires being wealthy. Plenty of lower class Indian immigrants pool their money for taxi medallions, convenient stores, hotels, trucks, etc. to get a business going. They integrate well and know how to climb the system. They send their children in as doctors later in generations. They don't always start rich, they work for it. > A lot of rich people come to America because America treats rich people so well, at the cost of treating poor people like dirt. See: tax rates. You'll find tax rates are better in the US than most other countries for lower income families. For businesses the US has only recently been competitive.
      - 5y ago
heavyset_go 5y ago
> where people work much harder and still don't get by. This happens to a lot of people in the US, as well.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

That's classic whataboutism. That doesn't explain away why it's that bad in the US nor does it justify accepting the status quo.

smt88 5y ago

"It's worse somewhere else" isn't relevant to whether it's acceptable in the US. The US has the resources to reward hard workers with financial stability. It also benefits from brain-draining other countries with this promise. If the US continues to slide away from the "American Dream," the brains and prosperity will end up somewhere else.

kkjjkgjjgg 5y ago
So how much do you want to pay for bottle collecting? When you say "the US has the resources to reward hard workers", in this case you mean everybody who buys a bottle should pay more. Or how would you envision it to play out?
- zeckalpha 5y ago
  Many places use a deposit system, where if you return the packaging for recycling, you get your money back. This cuts down on litter, at no cost to those who recycle.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - kkjjkgjjgg 5y ago
    But presumably, the higher the price for returning bottles, the less likely people will be to just dump them on the street, for the collectors to collect? Or it will become attractive for more collectors. In any case, it may not be so simple to raise their "wage" for collecting bottles.
    - zeckalpha 5y ago
      Many people will dump on the street (or in cans the collectors tend to) even if the deposit tripled.
- smt88 5y ago
  We could easily turn bottle-collecting into a job with guaranteed hours and pay. Bottle-collecting is a poor example for the broader issue I was discussing. Those programs are intended for the (mostly homeless) poor to pick up trash they see instead of leaving it behind. It does what it's supposed to do.
jimbokun 5y ago
> The US has the resources to reward hard workers with financial stability. Most hard workers in the U.S. are rewarded with financial stability. Not everyone, but enough that people still flock here from other countries where that's less true. > It also benefits from brain-draining other countries with this promise. Well gee, I guess the U.S. should stop being such a great place for immigrants, so talented people stop coming here and stay wherever they live now.
- smt88 5y ago
  > Most hard workers in the U.S. are rewarded with financial stability. Not everyone, but enough that people still flock here from other countries where that's less true. You think restaurant workers are lazy? Factory workers? Amazon fulfillment workers? Why do people need two or three exhausting jobs to make a living? > Well gee, I guess the U.S. should stop being such a great place for immigrants, so talented people stop coming here and stay wherever they live now. I don't know what this means. Have the courage to say what you mean instead of using sarcasm. Whatever you mean, the US needs young workers to resolve our massive labor shortage and we need educated workers to be our next generation of scientists, doctors, engineers, and entrepreneurs.
  - jimbokun 5y ago
    > Why do people need two or three exhausting jobs to make a living? Most. Not all. The U.S. can still do better, but there needs to be some perspective on how the U.S. stacks up against the rest of the world. Better than most countries, not as good as some. > Whatever you mean, the US needs young workers to resolve our massive labor shortage and we need educated workers to be our next generation of scientists, doctors, engineers, and entrepreneurs. Brain drain sounded to me like the U.S. attracting those people is a bad thing, because those people should stay in their own countries. That's not what you meant to imply? We do need educated workers to fill the jobs you describe, but at the same time we probably send too many young people to college, many of whom would do better with solid technical skills training leading directly to jobs with far less debt.
    - 5y ago

bryanrasmussen 5y ago

Or, if you take another section of the rest of the world wait till you realize what's happening in the rest of the world where people work less hard and don't have it that bad.

hunterb123 5y ago
Then hopefully immigrants are also going there and enjoying that system, if it supports them, wherever it may be.
- nopenopenopeno 5y ago
  FYI a great many immigrants were rich when they immigrated. A lot of rich people come to America because America offers so much opportunity to people who are already wealthy. Immigrants from overseas are especially likely to be wealthy. Indian-Americans are the wealthiest ethnic demographic in America simply because migrating from India pretty much requires being very wealthy to begin with.
  - hunterb123 5y ago
    Nothing I said indicated the immigrants were rich or poor, the majority are poor though. My point was if there's a nicer system than the US, immigrants will be flocking there too. Luckily we have numbers on the rates of which people immigrate to which countries, and the average wages of citizens of those countries. > Indian-Americans are the richest ethnic minority in America because migrating from India pretty much requires being wealthy. Plenty of lower class Indian immigrants pool their money for taxi medallions, convenient stores, hotels, trucks, etc. to get a business going. They integrate well and know how to climb the system. They send their children in as doctors later in generations. They don't always start rich, they work for it. > A lot of rich people come to America because America treats rich people so well, at the cost of treating poor people like dirt. See: tax rates. You'll find tax rates are better in the US than most other countries for lower income families. For businesses the US has only recently been competitive.
    - 5y ago

heavyset_go 5y ago

> where people work much harder and still don't get by. This happens to a lot of people in the US, as well.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]