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Why, this is exactly how vaccines work - they prime (or condition) the immune system, but it is the immune system that actually do the job in case of exposure t

Why, this is exactly how vaccines work - they prime (or condition) the immune system, but it is the immune system that actually do the job in case of exposure to the virus. Vaccination is neither prevents infection nor spreading. Its about efficiency of the response.

justinpombrio 5y ago
> Vaccination is neither prevents infection nor spreading. Vaccines frequently prevent infection and spreading. (And yes, they do this by way of priming the immune system.) For example, we eradicated Small Pox with vaccines: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/788150/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/788150/ My understanding is that vaccines do reduce the chance of Covid spreading. But with the Omicron variant, they help a lot with preventing severe illness and only a little bit with helping reduce infectiousness. And Omicron is ridiculously infectious, so it's going to whip right through well-vaccinated areas just like everywhere else. But in general, reducing the chance that one person infects another is one of the primary purposes of vaccines.
- withjive 5y ago
  - deleted 5y ago
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  - deleted 5y ago
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  - kkjjkgjjgg 5y ago
    Most people, including governments, seem to be under the impression that the vaccines prevent spreading. It is the only rationale for vaccination mandates that are being rolled out all over the world.
    - EB-Barrington 5y ago
      "Our vaccines are working exceptionally well. They continue to work well for Delta with regard to severe illness and death - they prevent it, but what they can't do anymore is prevent transmission." CDC Director Rochelle Walensky
      - kkjjkgjjgg 5y ago
        Interesting - is there a link that could be quoted? I think it would be interesting to many people. As I say, the belief is very widespread. For example this article shared by another commentator also says vaccinated people "seem less likely to pass it on to others": https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2021/09/sterilizing-immunity-myth-covid-19-vaccines/620023/ https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2021/09/steriliz...
      - maxerickson 5y ago
        She is specifically saying that people with breakthrough infections are infectious there, she isn't characterizing the overall impact of vaccination on transmission there. A vaccine that fails to totally prevent transmission can of course still be reducing transmission (and this is likely the case with COVID).
    - mschuster91 5y ago
      > Most people, including governments, seem to be under the impression that the vaccines prevent spreading. Indeed, but wrongly. "Sterilizing immunity" is a myth, even including historical vaccines [1]. > It is the only rationale for vaccination mandates that are being rolled out all over the world. Nope, the rationale behind the vaccination mandates is to prevent the medical system (or, in case of enough infections, society itself) from being overloaded. When the entire staff of a power plant, for example, catches Omicron shit gets really hairy really fast. [1]: https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2021/09/sterilizing-immunity-myth-covid-19-vaccines/620023/ https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2021/09/steriliz...
      - blitzar 5y ago
  - throwaway_4947 5y ago
    >Please stop spreading fake science based on "your understanding" I agree, it's deadly. So I hope you are just genuinely misinformed, because after 2 years I don't have the energy to engage in these discussions anymore. There's no studies for Omicron yet but according to the CDC and the studies they quote, the vaccines did prevent spreading for Alpha Beta and Delta variants. From the CDCs "Science Brief: COVID-19 Vaccines and Vaccination": https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/science/science-briefs/fully-vaccinated-people.html https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/science/science-br... ... Studies from multiple countries found significantly reduced likelihood of transmission to household contacts from people infected with SARS-CoV-2 who were previously vaccinated for COVID-19.(171-176) ... However, other studies have shown a more rapid decline in viral RNA and culturable virus in fully vaccinated people (96, 177, 180-182). One study observed that Delta infection in fully vaccinated persons was associated with significantly less transmission to contacts than persons who were unvaccinated or partially vaccinated.(181) ... Together, these studies suggest that vaccinated people who become infected with Delta have potential to be less infectious than infected unvaccinated people. More studies are needed for Omicron but it's not fake science!
  - bonzini 5y ago
    He wrote "reduce", not "prevent".
    - zerocount 5y ago
      No he didn't. The very first sentence is, "Vaccines frequently prevent infection and spreading."
      - iso1210 5y ago
        And thus infrequently do not prevent it infection and spreading. Taken as a whole that would be the same as saying 'reduce'. you read it as "Vaccines always prevent infection and spreading". Would you agree seatbelts frequently prevent deaths and major injuries?
  - justinpombrio 5y ago
    > The NIH Link provided has no information regarding Covid Vaccines preventing the spread of Covid. You mean the one that's about Smallpox? No, I imagine the article about Smallpox that was written before the pandemic doesn't talk much about Covid.
- raxxorrax 5y ago
  The small pox vaccine isn't comparable to the Covid vaccine.
ycombinete 5y ago
I think that depends on the definition of "infection" being used.
- toast0 5y ago
  It also depends on the definition of prevents. There seems to be some disagreement about if X prevents Y means that Y never happens or if Y happens less frequently.
  - SideburnsOfDoom 5y ago
    > There seems to be some disagreement about if X prevents Y means that Y never happens or if Y happens less frequently. Quite. If "Y happens less frequently" then at least one instance of Y has been prevented. But some instances of Y still occur, so "Y can still happen". And if "Y can still happen" then some _clever_ person will say that "aha, Y has not been prevented from happening!" I _can_ ride a bicycle. So can Mark Cavendish. But these are not equivalents. None of this is binary, boolean, on-off. Sometimes it seems like this is being deliberately straw-manned with overly simplistic "all or nothing" thinking. We know that the COVID-19 vaccines prevent a large percentage of infections. We also know that they don't prevent all infections. We know that they are still very worthwhile. We need risk reduction, harm reduction not nit-picky semantic arguments. Medicine is not Boolean logic.
zerocount 5y ago
You are correct and shouldn't be down-voted for saying something that is unpopular, but true.
iso1210 5y ago
https://www.newscientist.com/article/2294250-how-much-less-likely-are-you-to-spread-covid-19-if-youre-vaccinated/ https://www.newscientist.com/article/2294250-how-much-less-l... A recent study found that vaccinated people infected with the delta variant are 63 per cent less likely to infect people who are unvaccinated. ... Others have worked out the full effect. Earlier this year, Ottavia Prunas at Yale University applied two different models to data from Israel, where the Pfizer vaccine was used. Her team’s conclusion was that the overall vaccine effectiveness against transmission was 89 per cent.
bigodbiel 5y ago
Clinical trials showed >90% efficacy in preventing symptomatic infection. The cornerstone for “returning to normal” was mass vaccination. It was held as the only solution.

justinpombrio 5y ago

> Vaccination is neither prevents infection nor spreading. Vaccines frequently prevent infection and spreading. (And yes, they do this by way of priming the immune system.) For example, we eradicated Small Pox with vaccines: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/788150/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/788150/ My understanding is that vaccines do reduce the chance of Covid spreading. But with the Omicron variant, they help a lot with preventing severe illness and only a little bit with helping reduce infectiousness. And Omicron is ridiculously infectious, so it's going to whip right through well-vaccinated areas just like everywhere else. But in general, reducing the chance that one person infects another is one of the primary purposes of vaccines.

withjive 5y ago
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- kkjjkgjjgg 5y ago
  Most people, including governments, seem to be under the impression that the vaccines prevent spreading. It is the only rationale for vaccination mandates that are being rolled out all over the world.
  - EB-Barrington 5y ago
    "Our vaccines are working exceptionally well. They continue to work well for Delta with regard to severe illness and death - they prevent it, but what they can't do anymore is prevent transmission." CDC Director Rochelle Walensky
    - kkjjkgjjgg 5y ago
      Interesting - is there a link that could be quoted? I think it would be interesting to many people. As I say, the belief is very widespread. For example this article shared by another commentator also says vaccinated people "seem less likely to pass it on to others": https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2021/09/sterilizing-immunity-myth-covid-19-vaccines/620023/ https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2021/09/steriliz...
    - maxerickson 5y ago
      She is specifically saying that people with breakthrough infections are infectious there, she isn't characterizing the overall impact of vaccination on transmission there. A vaccine that fails to totally prevent transmission can of course still be reducing transmission (and this is likely the case with COVID).
  - mschuster91 5y ago
    > Most people, including governments, seem to be under the impression that the vaccines prevent spreading. Indeed, but wrongly. "Sterilizing immunity" is a myth, even including historical vaccines [1]. > It is the only rationale for vaccination mandates that are being rolled out all over the world. Nope, the rationale behind the vaccination mandates is to prevent the medical system (or, in case of enough infections, society itself) from being overloaded. When the entire staff of a power plant, for example, catches Omicron shit gets really hairy really fast. [1]: https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2021/09/sterilizing-immunity-myth-covid-19-vaccines/620023/ https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2021/09/steriliz...
    - blitzar 5y ago
- throwaway_4947 5y ago
  >Please stop spreading fake science based on "your understanding" I agree, it's deadly. So I hope you are just genuinely misinformed, because after 2 years I don't have the energy to engage in these discussions anymore. There's no studies for Omicron yet but according to the CDC and the studies they quote, the vaccines did prevent spreading for Alpha Beta and Delta variants. From the CDCs "Science Brief: COVID-19 Vaccines and Vaccination": https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/science/science-briefs/fully-vaccinated-people.html https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/science/science-br... ... Studies from multiple countries found significantly reduced likelihood of transmission to household contacts from people infected with SARS-CoV-2 who were previously vaccinated for COVID-19.(171-176) ... However, other studies have shown a more rapid decline in viral RNA and culturable virus in fully vaccinated people (96, 177, 180-182). One study observed that Delta infection in fully vaccinated persons was associated with significantly less transmission to contacts than persons who were unvaccinated or partially vaccinated.(181) ... Together, these studies suggest that vaccinated people who become infected with Delta have potential to be less infectious than infected unvaccinated people. More studies are needed for Omicron but it's not fake science!
- bonzini 5y ago
  He wrote "reduce", not "prevent".
  - zerocount 5y ago
    No he didn't. The very first sentence is, "Vaccines frequently prevent infection and spreading."
    - iso1210 5y ago
      And thus infrequently do not prevent it infection and spreading. Taken as a whole that would be the same as saying 'reduce'. you read it as "Vaccines always prevent infection and spreading". Would you agree seatbelts frequently prevent deaths and major injuries?
- justinpombrio 5y ago
  > The NIH Link provided has no information regarding Covid Vaccines preventing the spread of Covid. You mean the one that's about Smallpox? No, I imagine the article about Smallpox that was written before the pandemic doesn't talk much about Covid.
raxxorrax 5y ago
The small pox vaccine isn't comparable to the Covid vaccine.

ycombinete 5y ago

I think that depends on the definition of "infection" being used.

toast0 5y ago
It also depends on the definition of prevents. There seems to be some disagreement about if X prevents Y means that Y never happens or if Y happens less frequently.
- SideburnsOfDoom 5y ago
  > There seems to be some disagreement about if X prevents Y means that Y never happens or if Y happens less frequently. Quite. If "Y happens less frequently" then at least one instance of Y has been prevented. But some instances of Y still occur, so "Y can still happen". And if "Y can still happen" then some _clever_ person will say that "aha, Y has not been prevented from happening!" I _can_ ride a bicycle. So can Mark Cavendish. But these are not equivalents. None of this is binary, boolean, on-off. Sometimes it seems like this is being deliberately straw-manned with overly simplistic "all or nothing" thinking. We know that the COVID-19 vaccines prevent a large percentage of infections. We also know that they don't prevent all infections. We know that they are still very worthwhile. We need risk reduction, harm reduction not nit-picky semantic arguments. Medicine is not Boolean logic.

zerocount 5y ago

You are correct and shouldn't be down-voted for saying something that is unpopular, but true.

iso1210 5y ago

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2294250-how-much-less-likely-are-you-to-spread-covid-19-if-youre-vaccinated/ https://www.newscientist.com/article/2294250-how-much-less-l... A recent study found that vaccinated people infected with the delta variant are 63 per cent less likely to infect people who are unvaccinated. ... Others have worked out the full effect. Earlier this year, Ottavia Prunas at Yale University applied two different models to data from Israel, where the Pfizer vaccine was used. Her team’s conclusion was that the overall vaccine effectiveness against transmission was 89 per cent.

bigodbiel 5y ago

Clinical trials showed >90% efficacy in preventing symptomatic infection. The cornerstone for “returning to normal” was mass vaccination. It was held as the only solution.