6 ms·

I'm French, I hope we (France, EU) follow your lead.

by forty 5y ago

baby 5y ago
Same here… Macron you reading this?
- lustitia 5y ago
  Macron and Moon, president of South Korea, are the two country leaders left that is sympathetic to the CCP (or sympathetic to the CCP money). Germany just switched from Merkel who was sympathetic to both CCP and Putin to the traffic light coalition, which is now standing up to CCP. Hopefully Macron and Moon's party both leaves office next year with the election
mytailorisrich 5y ago
No. France's traditional stance is more independent non-aligned and it is in France's interest to maintain decent working relations with all sides. France was the first Western country to recognise the PRC, for instance. This was realpolitik and hopefully that will continue. Before every action we need to ask yourself what we want to achieve and whether that is actually achievable. This requires knowledge of other countries' history, culture, and politics. Rash, emotional moves are rarely productive. Historically France and other Western powers have been aggressors towards China (which partly caused the reaction that led to the current Chinese regime). The reality is that a country like France is in no position to pressure China and rash action against China would help the Chinese government at home by allowing them to invoke history.
- lumost 5y ago
  Participating in trade with the PRC requires action to support the PRC through domestic censorship and diplomatic support on issues the PRC cares about (Taiwan). France has a choice in whether they choose to support the PRC or not - this requires stepping on red lines and facing the consequences.
  - mytailorisrich 5y ago
    There is no domestic censorship in France on China-related topics. As I wrote before France chose a long time ago to switch from ROC/Taiwan to PRC in terms of diplomatic recognition because that was the pragmatic and realistic thing to do for France. France trades with China because it is in its interest to do so, not because of any 'support' for China.
    - mensetmanusman 5y ago
      If any of these companies are in France, then there is domestic censorship in France on China-related topics: https://mashable.com/article/china-censorship-companies-hong-kong-protests-nba https://mashable.com/article/china-censorship-companies-hong...
      - mytailorisrich 5y ago
        No... Private companies make their own commercial decisions. There is no censorship on these topics on the part of the French authorities.
        mensetmanusman 5y ago
        That’s impossible to prove, because not talking about it intentionally is self censorship, but by definition it wouldn’t be talked about so there’s no way of knowing.
    - ChemSpider 5y ago
      Nobody asks France or Germany to stop trading with China. But both countries should use more of their power to support a fellow democracy that is under threat.
- jelly 5y ago
  Its incorrect to call opening an office for Taiwan a "rash, emotional move". It's a simple ackowledgement of the way things already are (two nations who talk and negotiate with each other) and helps Taiwan and France build their relationship. The concern is that the CCP will have a rash, emotional response (as they did with Lithuania) because they imagine they can set the terms for any Taiwan-related business. These frequent emotional outbursts have cost the CCP so much political capital, which means countries like France will reconsider their relationship.
  - mytailorisrich 5y ago
    France, like everyone else, has all the communications channels it needs with Taiwan, and does business with Taiwan as it sees fit, but I was not specifically referring to that but rather to closing the embassy in China and other actions against China.
    - CRConrad 5y ago
      How is closing an embassy an "action against" someone?
    - pedrosorio 5y ago
      > Its incorrect to call opening an office for Taiwan a "rash, emotional move" > but I was not specifically referring to that but rather to closing the embassy in China and other actions against China Could you clarify what other actions did Lithuania take against China? This is the timeline afaik [0]: - In August 2021, the ROC opened its representative office in Vilnius under the name of "Taiwanese" - In response, the PRC recalled its ambassador in Vilnius, Shen Zhifei, and demanded that Lithuania recall its ambassador in Beijing, Diana Mickevičienė. - On 3 December 2021, Lithuania reported that in an escalation of the diplomatic spat over relations with Taiwan, China had stopped all imports from the Baltic state. It said Beijing has delisted Lithuania as a country of origin, preventing items from clearing customs, and was rejecting all import applications - As a result of the conflict China pressured Continental AG and other international companies to stop doing business with Lithuania.[7] The spat spilled over to the rest of the EU when China banned the import of goods which contained Lithuanian parts potentially disrupting integrated supply chains in the common market. ^ not included in the timeline: internal propaganda to smear Lithuania as a nation once the PRC deemed the tiny country a threat for allowing ROC to open a representative office under the name "Taiwanese" in its capital [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China%E2%80%93Lithuania_relations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China%E2%80%93Lithuania_relati...
BrandoElFollito 5y ago
I am French as well, and proud to be one. France weights exactly nothing in such politics. Let's take an easier case: the hijacking of the Estonian plane over Belarus to imprison Roman Protasevich (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryanair_Flight_4978 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryanair_Flight_4978). Everyone was outraged, Macron had his martial face to say that we will not tolerate this (I voted for Macron, to be clear). What happened? Exactly nothing. And this is against a clown regime backed by Russia who has vital interests in Europe. We dod not have the power to force Putin to do anything. We are dependent on China like we are dependent on the US. Each of these countries will fuck us up the moment we get out of line (US did it many times already - the latest being the Australian submarines, but also our interests in Iran (the US said: either you move away from Iran or you will have problems. We asked the EU for help and eventually moved away as instructed)). So our Napoleonian idea of a great country that everyone fears is just in th ehead of some people. If we wanted to weight whatever, EU would need to be united. This is not happening with the current EU structure.
- peoplefromibiza 5y ago
  > the latest being the Australian submarines, but also our interests in Iran Good point. I think Europe is the only continent that can oppose to colonialistic empires like US and China, but needs to have a single voice, France, Germany, Spain, Italy etc. alone are insignificant in the scenario.
  - BrandoElFollito 5y ago
    The problem is that each of th eEU countries is a country. With its own interests, culture, history. We are eons from a country such as the USA, which highlights how federal it is. It is still one country, with one president, one army etc. We (in the EU) are countries that love or hate other for over 1000 years. Some of the dislike is deep, some is surprisingly different now (France and Germany for instance, forever enemies and now counties that are really close to each other thanks to the post-war efforts). But when it comes to money and politics, we are often each for its own.

I'm French, I hope we (France, EU) follow your lead.

by forty 5y ago

I'm French, I hope we (France, EU) follow your lead.

baby 5y ago

Same here… Macron you reading this?

lustitia 5y ago
Macron and Moon, president of South Korea, are the two country leaders left that is sympathetic to the CCP (or sympathetic to the CCP money). Germany just switched from Merkel who was sympathetic to both CCP and Putin to the traffic light coalition, which is now standing up to CCP. Hopefully Macron and Moon's party both leaves office next year with the election

mytailorisrich 5y ago

No. France's traditional stance is more independent non-aligned and it is in France's interest to maintain decent working relations with all sides. France was the first Western country to recognise the PRC, for instance. This was realpolitik and hopefully that will continue. Before every action we need to ask yourself what we want to achieve and whether that is actually achievable. This requires knowledge of other countries' history, culture, and politics. Rash, emotional moves are rarely productive. Historically France and other Western powers have been aggressors towards China (which partly caused the reaction that led to the current Chinese regime). The reality is that a country like France is in no position to pressure China and rash action against China would help the Chinese government at home by allowing them to invoke history.

lumost 5y ago
Participating in trade with the PRC requires action to support the PRC through domestic censorship and diplomatic support on issues the PRC cares about (Taiwan). France has a choice in whether they choose to support the PRC or not - this requires stepping on red lines and facing the consequences.
- mytailorisrich 5y ago
  There is no domestic censorship in France on China-related topics. As I wrote before France chose a long time ago to switch from ROC/Taiwan to PRC in terms of diplomatic recognition because that was the pragmatic and realistic thing to do for France. France trades with China because it is in its interest to do so, not because of any 'support' for China.
  - mensetmanusman 5y ago
    If any of these companies are in France, then there is domestic censorship in France on China-related topics: https://mashable.com/article/china-censorship-companies-hong-kong-protests-nba https://mashable.com/article/china-censorship-companies-hong...
    - mytailorisrich 5y ago
      No... Private companies make their own commercial decisions. There is no censorship on these topics on the part of the French authorities.
      - mensetmanusman 5y ago
        That’s impossible to prove, because not talking about it intentionally is self censorship, but by definition it wouldn’t be talked about so there’s no way of knowing.
  - ChemSpider 5y ago
    Nobody asks France or Germany to stop trading with China. But both countries should use more of their power to support a fellow democracy that is under threat.
jelly 5y ago
Its incorrect to call opening an office for Taiwan a "rash, emotional move". It's a simple ackowledgement of the way things already are (two nations who talk and negotiate with each other) and helps Taiwan and France build their relationship. The concern is that the CCP will have a rash, emotional response (as they did with Lithuania) because they imagine they can set the terms for any Taiwan-related business. These frequent emotional outbursts have cost the CCP so much political capital, which means countries like France will reconsider their relationship.
- mytailorisrich 5y ago
  France, like everyone else, has all the communications channels it needs with Taiwan, and does business with Taiwan as it sees fit, but I was not specifically referring to that but rather to closing the embassy in China and other actions against China.
  - CRConrad 5y ago
    How is closing an embassy an "action against" someone?
  - pedrosorio 5y ago
    > Its incorrect to call opening an office for Taiwan a "rash, emotional move" > but I was not specifically referring to that but rather to closing the embassy in China and other actions against China Could you clarify what other actions did Lithuania take against China? This is the timeline afaik [0]: - In August 2021, the ROC opened its representative office in Vilnius under the name of "Taiwanese" - In response, the PRC recalled its ambassador in Vilnius, Shen Zhifei, and demanded that Lithuania recall its ambassador in Beijing, Diana Mickevičienė. - On 3 December 2021, Lithuania reported that in an escalation of the diplomatic spat over relations with Taiwan, China had stopped all imports from the Baltic state. It said Beijing has delisted Lithuania as a country of origin, preventing items from clearing customs, and was rejecting all import applications - As a result of the conflict China pressured Continental AG and other international companies to stop doing business with Lithuania.[7] The spat spilled over to the rest of the EU when China banned the import of goods which contained Lithuanian parts potentially disrupting integrated supply chains in the common market. ^ not included in the timeline: internal propaganda to smear Lithuania as a nation once the PRC deemed the tiny country a threat for allowing ROC to open a representative office under the name "Taiwanese" in its capital [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China%E2%80%93Lithuania_relations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China%E2%80%93Lithuania_relati...

BrandoElFollito 5y ago

I am French as well, and proud to be one. France weights exactly nothing in such politics. Let's take an easier case: the hijacking of the Estonian plane over Belarus to imprison Roman Protasevich (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryanair_Flight_4978 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryanair_Flight_4978). Everyone was outraged, Macron had his martial face to say that we will not tolerate this (I voted for Macron, to be clear). What happened? Exactly nothing. And this is against a clown regime backed by Russia who has vital interests in Europe. We dod not have the power to force Putin to do anything. We are dependent on China like we are dependent on the US. Each of these countries will fuck us up the moment we get out of line (US did it many times already - the latest being the Australian submarines, but also our interests in Iran (the US said: either you move away from Iran or you will have problems. We asked the EU for help and eventually moved away as instructed)). So our Napoleonian idea of a great country that everyone fears is just in th ehead of some people. If we wanted to weight whatever, EU would need to be united. This is not happening with the current EU structure.

peoplefromibiza 5y ago
> the latest being the Australian submarines, but also our interests in Iran Good point. I think Europe is the only continent that can oppose to colonialistic empires like US and China, but needs to have a single voice, France, Germany, Spain, Italy etc. alone are insignificant in the scenario.
- BrandoElFollito 5y ago
  The problem is that each of th eEU countries is a country. With its own interests, culture, history. We are eons from a country such as the USA, which highlights how federal it is. It is still one country, with one president, one army etc. We (in the EU) are countries that love or hate other for over 1000 years. Some of the dislike is deep, some is surprisingly different now (France and Germany for instance, forever enemies and now counties that are really close to each other thanks to the post-war efforts). But when it comes to money and politics, we are often each for its own.