6 ms·

Personally I would just identify a technical niche that is highly valued by certain industries, and specialize in that. For example in high-frequency trading,

Personally I would just identify a technical niche that is highly valued by certain industries, and specialize in that. For example in high-frequency trading, there is a small niche developing ultra-low-latency FPGAs or ASICs for trading systems. The work in question is fairly straightforward compared to other industries, but most of the people with the right skillset tend to go to aerospace or other big user of sophisticated electrical engineering instead. The number of positions in the relevant niche is low, but given that there are so few people, they won't care where they are, could sponsor a green card and will pay very well.

cushychicken 5y ago
I run a job board for FPGA people and hoo WEE do the HFT firms compensate amply. Talking two to three times the salary of a comparable position at a defense or chip company. That's not to say you won't be earning it. The corporate culture sounds absolutely savage: https://www.reddit.com/r/FPGA/comments/pj43ar/my_experience_with_fpgas_and_high_frequency/ https://www.reddit.com/r/FPGA/comments/pj43ar/my_experience_...
- yob28 5y ago
  Not to mention the fact that your job would be less than meaningless
  - mustyoshi 5y ago
    What kind of meaningful job produces enough value to justify making 7x what the median US worker makes?
    - treeman79 5y ago
      When young, I was asked to take over reporting for a couple weeks while someone went on vacation. It was a full time position that required 7 solid hours a day of work. I had the position fully automated by the time person got back. Thankfully they took it well and they got more interesting assignments. 2 weeks of my time saved several years of salary for company. I did this many times.
      - lotsofpulp 5y ago
        Ironically, that is also what the “meaningless” HFT firms do. Automate trading so fewer and fewer traders are needed.
        UweSchmidt 5y ago
        They are not replacing "needed traders", i.e. people that used to execute trades required by real people or companies, like "buy some Apple stock". These firms are playing their very own game in the markets, ultimately extracing money from the economy, with the supposed public benefit of "creating liquidity" (not needed for real investors who can very well wait a day or two before closing a deal) while actually distorting the markets and obscuring the real value).
        lotsofpulp 5y ago
        No one is stopping the buyers who can wait a day or two from placing limit orders. If the HFT firms are earning profits, it is because someone wants to pay them for the liquidity.
        UweSchmidt 5y ago
        Anyone who buys organically is buying after the HFT firms have made their buying decisions on the entirety of the market, it's not possible to "wait a day or two". The deal will be incrementally worse as these firms extract value, your price will be the one that all of these firms deemed "meh". It's like walking into a grocery store and the banana you really want it 1$ and you'll buy. Because that's the price that highly sophisticated middlemen between the store and you have determined to be good. The liquidity argument is abstract and unquantifyable enough to be used as a fig leaf for the industry. Real investors who are in it for fundamental values, dividends or strategy don't need to sell in a nanosecond. Now that you can sell in a nanosecond your deal is bad, as in the moment you hear of the Volkswagen scandal all the trading algorithms are done with their work already.
        5y ago
    - distribot 5y ago
      Do you mean meaningful in the bull** jobs way or the moralistic way? I find the moralistic version confusing. I usually hear it applied to CEO pay, which last year was 350x the average worker. But what will ever feel like a fair or just differential? 7x? 3x? And what would be a fair metric? Are dentists less or more than social workers? What about dangerous jobs, are lumberjacks worth more than coal miners?
    - notfromhere 5y ago
      None, but neither does any job that makes double or triple digit multiples of what the US median worker makes.
  - anonuser123456 5y ago
    Liquidity is not meaningless.
    - jeffreyrogers 5y ago
      They don't really create liquidity, but they did narrow the bid-ask spread. The "liquidity" they provide dries up when volatility spikes anyways (although that was always true, so not really a criticism of HFT).
- zibzab 5y ago
  Wow, that was an interesting read. Not sure I'm up for working in such a toxic environment, but the technical challenges seem very interesting.
  - marstall 5y ago
    indeed. > If they don't have an FPGA engineer, or have a very small team, they are not serious about finance, or they are just dumb. are FPGAs that core to Finance writ large?
    - mgaunard 5y ago
      Not really. There are only a few financial instruments worldwide where very low latency matters, and there you'd be competing against people who have invested millions in custom transceivers, so it's unlikely FPGA work on a readymade board is really going to make much of a difference. But like all industries, there are many factors that contribute to success. FPGA work might help improve things a bit even if you're not the best.
    - pgwhalen 5y ago
      No. A large majority of trading strategies don't require the low latency that FPGAs help provide. There is some truth to this statement though, if such a firm is trying to pursue a certain kind of strategy - to compete on latency, some of your business must be in hardware.
  - wpietri 5y ago
    I worked in financial trading for a few years in the 1990s. It was the same deal then: pay was great, industry was a boys club run by assholes, work environment was toxic. After a few years I was very much burnt out and had to change careers from sysadmin work to software development as my internal reaction to being asked to do sysadmin had become waves of nausea and hostility. Took me years to get over it. So if you are tempted to do financial industry work, make sure to price in the risk of lost work time, years of therapy, etc. It was a fascinating experience and I learned a ton, but financially it was not a net win for me in the long term.
vsareto 5y ago
Can you self teach yourself into these positions or do they filter for a degree?
- lordnacho 5y ago
  A bit of both. The market is white hot right now, so there's a better than usual chance of getting something. Of course there's still a lot of applicants so it's useful to have the right degree. The thing to do is talk to headhunter firms. I've always maintained a number of relationships with the leading firms in my area (quant trading) and they'll call now and again. But if you don't know them, get in touch and they'll usually tell you if you're useful to them.
- jeffreyrogers 5y ago
  You can learn the basics of FPGA development on your own (I did), but you need to go to a company that uses them to actually get good.[0] Which probably means a defense contractor or maybe a telecom company. A finance firm isn't going to hire some random person who knows FPGA dev unless they have done real world projects. [0]: I'm sure there are exceptions of people who self taught themselves and are great, but it is significantly harder to break into than software.
quibono 5y ago
Do you know of any good starting points if one wants to be working in HFT?
- mgaunard 5y ago
  You learn everything that is relevant on the job. It can be useful to have a high-level idea of what people do so that you can show you understand what's asked of you and you can more easily find the right role.

cushychicken 5y ago

I run a job board for FPGA people and hoo WEE do the HFT firms compensate amply. Talking two to three times the salary of a comparable position at a defense or chip company. That's not to say you won't be earning it. The corporate culture sounds absolutely savage: https://www.reddit.com/r/FPGA/comments/pj43ar/my_experience_with_fpgas_and_high_frequency/ https://www.reddit.com/r/FPGA/comments/pj43ar/my_experience_...

yob28 5y ago
Not to mention the fact that your job would be less than meaningless
- mustyoshi 5y ago
  What kind of meaningful job produces enough value to justify making 7x what the median US worker makes?
  - treeman79 5y ago
    When young, I was asked to take over reporting for a couple weeks while someone went on vacation. It was a full time position that required 7 solid hours a day of work. I had the position fully automated by the time person got back. Thankfully they took it well and they got more interesting assignments. 2 weeks of my time saved several years of salary for company. I did this many times.
    - lotsofpulp 5y ago
      Ironically, that is also what the “meaningless” HFT firms do. Automate trading so fewer and fewer traders are needed.
      - UweSchmidt 5y ago
        They are not replacing "needed traders", i.e. people that used to execute trades required by real people or companies, like "buy some Apple stock". These firms are playing their very own game in the markets, ultimately extracing money from the economy, with the supposed public benefit of "creating liquidity" (not needed for real investors who can very well wait a day or two before closing a deal) while actually distorting the markets and obscuring the real value).
        lotsofpulp 5y ago
        No one is stopping the buyers who can wait a day or two from placing limit orders. If the HFT firms are earning profits, it is because someone wants to pay them for the liquidity.
        UweSchmidt 5y ago
        Anyone who buys organically is buying after the HFT firms have made their buying decisions on the entirety of the market, it's not possible to "wait a day or two". The deal will be incrementally worse as these firms extract value, your price will be the one that all of these firms deemed "meh". It's like walking into a grocery store and the banana you really want it 1$ and you'll buy. Because that's the price that highly sophisticated middlemen between the store and you have determined to be good. The liquidity argument is abstract and unquantifyable enough to be used as a fig leaf for the industry. Real investors who are in it for fundamental values, dividends or strategy don't need to sell in a nanosecond. Now that you can sell in a nanosecond your deal is bad, as in the moment you hear of the Volkswagen scandal all the trading algorithms are done with their work already.
        5y ago
  - distribot 5y ago
    Do you mean meaningful in the bull** jobs way or the moralistic way? I find the moralistic version confusing. I usually hear it applied to CEO pay, which last year was 350x the average worker. But what will ever feel like a fair or just differential? 7x? 3x? And what would be a fair metric? Are dentists less or more than social workers? What about dangerous jobs, are lumberjacks worth more than coal miners?
  - notfromhere 5y ago
    None, but neither does any job that makes double or triple digit multiples of what the US median worker makes.
- anonuser123456 5y ago
  Liquidity is not meaningless.
  - jeffreyrogers 5y ago
    They don't really create liquidity, but they did narrow the bid-ask spread. The "liquidity" they provide dries up when volatility spikes anyways (although that was always true, so not really a criticism of HFT).
zibzab 5y ago
Wow, that was an interesting read. Not sure I'm up for working in such a toxic environment, but the technical challenges seem very interesting.
- marstall 5y ago
  indeed. > If they don't have an FPGA engineer, or have a very small team, they are not serious about finance, or they are just dumb. are FPGAs that core to Finance writ large?
  - mgaunard 5y ago
    Not really. There are only a few financial instruments worldwide where very low latency matters, and there you'd be competing against people who have invested millions in custom transceivers, so it's unlikely FPGA work on a readymade board is really going to make much of a difference. But like all industries, there are many factors that contribute to success. FPGA work might help improve things a bit even if you're not the best.
  - pgwhalen 5y ago
    No. A large majority of trading strategies don't require the low latency that FPGAs help provide. There is some truth to this statement though, if such a firm is trying to pursue a certain kind of strategy - to compete on latency, some of your business must be in hardware.
- wpietri 5y ago
  I worked in financial trading for a few years in the 1990s. It was the same deal then: pay was great, industry was a boys club run by assholes, work environment was toxic. After a few years I was very much burnt out and had to change careers from sysadmin work to software development as my internal reaction to being asked to do sysadmin had become waves of nausea and hostility. Took me years to get over it. So if you are tempted to do financial industry work, make sure to price in the risk of lost work time, years of therapy, etc. It was a fascinating experience and I learned a ton, but financially it was not a net win for me in the long term.

vsareto 5y ago

Can you self teach yourself into these positions or do they filter for a degree?

lordnacho 5y ago
A bit of both. The market is white hot right now, so there's a better than usual chance of getting something. Of course there's still a lot of applicants so it's useful to have the right degree. The thing to do is talk to headhunter firms. I've always maintained a number of relationships with the leading firms in my area (quant trading) and they'll call now and again. But if you don't know them, get in touch and they'll usually tell you if you're useful to them.
jeffreyrogers 5y ago
You can learn the basics of FPGA development on your own (I did), but you need to go to a company that uses them to actually get good.[0] Which probably means a defense contractor or maybe a telecom company. A finance firm isn't going to hire some random person who knows FPGA dev unless they have done real world projects. [0]: I'm sure there are exceptions of people who self taught themselves and are great, but it is significantly harder to break into than software.

quibono 5y ago

Do you know of any good starting points if one wants to be working in HFT?

mgaunard 5y ago
You learn everything that is relevant on the job. It can be useful to have a high-level idea of what people do so that you can show you understand what's asked of you and you can more easily find the right role.