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>> I don't like NFTs, but the anti-NFT crowd doesn't seem to get it and that is just as frustrating. Oh! The anti-NFT crowd does get it. Unfortunately, only to

>> I don't like NFTs, but the anti-NFT crowd doesn't seem to get it and that is just as frustrating. Oh! The anti-NFT crowd does get it. Unfortunately, only too well. And the thing is that there is nothing there to actually get it. >> the verifiable receipt is what matters No, this is just a marketing strategy to fool gullible and naïve people into aping into NFT. Nobody ever had a problem with verifiable receipts when attending concerts or buying a car or eating at a restaurant. NFT is a solution simply looking for non-problems to solve to justify its existence. NFT is simply put 100% speculative asset. The only reason it got a big hype is because people want to spend 0.00001 Eth and sell it for 100 Ethers and then they don't have to work for the rest of their lives. There is a suicide hotline that gets posts after every crypto crash. Inevitably the same thing is going to happen once the NFT market crashes (100% guaranteed) and regular people lose most of their savings for worthless jpeg that nobody else wants to buy.

exdsq 5y ago
Hey, I have a ticket to your favorite band. I’m selling it for $25 and you really want to buy it from me, but you don’t know me - this is our first contact! How do you buy it from me?
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- GauntletWizard 5y ago
  Reputation of the provenance and authenticity of goods is an entirely different problem.
  - exdsq 5y ago
    Sure! The tricky bit here, in my mind is: 1. How do you know the ticket is valid? 2a. How do you know I send the ticket after you pay me? 2b. How do I know you send the money after I send the ticket? 3. How do you know I don't send the ticket to someone else too, if it's digital?
    - GauntletWizard 5y ago
      A ticket is valid if and only if it gets you into the concert. You can ask the concert organizers to validate tickets for you. Most concert organizers have concentrated on two sites that allow them to validate tickets. That is why Ticketmaster is valuable, despite its terrible reputation. A cryptographically signed I owe you is and will always be meaningless. What is meaningful is the signature at the end of the chain, when the concert organizer lets you in.
- Scarblac 5y ago
  The nice thing of selling on concert tickets on a public block chain is that it's public, so those tickets can be invalidated easily. Everybody hates ticket resellers.
- eckmLJE 5y ago
  In person with cash or stubhub.
  - exdsq 5y ago
    Stubhub has a 10% fee for the buyer and a 15% fee for the seller. It also can’t guarantee tickets are valid, they do guarantee a refund to the buyer if they’re false though. This is more expensive and less safe than an NFT ticket.
    - remram 5y ago
      Did anyone actually implement any blockchain-based ticketing? Why do you think the fee collected by a company doing that would be lower than StubHub? Importantly, wouldn't those tokens be... fungible...?
    - duskwuff 5y ago
      And what makes you think that ticket sellers would implement such a system? The pure goodness of their hearts? (My understanding is that NFTs can be constructed to charge a fee on transfers. At least, this is what I've been told by people trying to promote their use for artwork...)
      - exdsq 5y ago
        This would require a smart contract, a react front-end to make the UX a little nicer, and a little maintenance. If I charge $1 fees per ticket tx I'd undercut the market and it wouldn't be that hard.
        acdha 5y ago
        Do you think Ticketmaster charges so much because their copy of MySQL runs on crushed Ming vases? They charge as much as they do because they have removed a lot of competition from the market (see e.g. jwz - https://www.dnalounge.com/backstage/log/2018/01/31.html https://www.dnalounge.com/backstage/log/2018/01/31.html). There’s no reason why they would implement an NFT where they’d get less money — in fact, they’re the kind of unethical weasels who’d figure out as many ways to hide fees in the smart contracts and play games with the blockchain they use to maximize their take.
- peoplefromibiza 5y ago
  my story: I was in Barcelona, wanted to go to Primavera Sound to see Pavement, went outside the gates, met a guy who was selling his ticket, gave him the money and BOOM! 5 minutes later I was under the stage.
- sprain 5y ago
  If you sell it to me as an NFT, how do I know it‘s not a fake NFT ticket or even a fake event? All potential solutions to that question have one thing in common: An event has by definition a centralized entity, which is the organizer. Everything that a blockchain supposedly solves in event ticketing is after all a solution due to digitization, not decentralization.
  - 3371 5y ago
    I don't like NFT too but have some knowledge about it. > If you sell it to me as an NFT, how do I know it‘s not a fake NFT ticket or even a fake event? This is actually not a problem at all: - It's not likely you'd buy ticket for some event that you don't know/not interested. - The event official (which you already know) should publish these info for query: - The blockchain - The contract address - The NFT token ID If you bought a proclaimed ticket NFT but it's fake, the only possibility is the official that you trust is a fraud.
    - sprain 5y ago
      Ok, so I‘ll have to check with the event official. How often do you actually know who that really is? Let‘s say Beyoncé is coming to the arena closest to you. Are you aware of who actually organizes that event and is in charge? Ticket buyers most often don‘t know and don‘t care. Plus, if I have to go to the central entity and check all that data, where is the benefit of going decentralized?
      - 3371 5y ago
        Hey, no matter how you buy a ticket, it'd have to be verified by the official eventually. > How often do you actually know who that really is? Let‘s say Beyoncé is coming to the arena closest to you. Interesting, so you are saying either: - Beyoncé official publish nothing about the event - We have no way to look up the ticket info Not likely IMO especially if we are talking stars like Beyoncé. > Plus, if I have to go to the central entity and check all that data, where is the benefit of going decentralized? Well, de-centralization is nothing about convenience, and it's not just about ticket-selling. I totally agree that blockchain & web3 is not mature at all comparing to how it is now, and I don't think it's going to be success unless they find a way to generally interact with real-world technically and legally.
krrishd 5y ago
> Nobody ever had a problem with verifiable receipts when attending concerts or buying a car or eating at a restaurant Sorry, but spoken like someone who has no idea how the fashion industry operates. Seriously though, it’s one thing to not like the superficiality of the fashion market, but to deny that NFTs exploit the same demand (for less-gauche proof of wealth) seems wrong.
- r3trohack3r 5y ago
  I think OPs point is NFT style guarantees exist without NFT technology. Recently I learned folks appraise ‘64 mustangs based on VIN and markings - so they know how close to the “first off the lot” that mustang was. They don’t need a blockchain to do that. I think there is a valid point to this take - humans don’t need irrefutable cryptographic proof that something has a story attached to it; they just need enough compelling evidence the story attached to an object is true. And the kinds of stories folks value tend to be human stories (this is the crown worn by so and so, this is the finger bone of saint so and so, etc.) which NFTs can’t capture.
  - miracle2k 5y ago
    The NFT is not about cryptographic proof. It's about creating something that such a story can attach to for digital pieces of art; w/o the token, digital art has no ownable identity. You indeed do not need a blockchain - the artworld has been doing it using paper certificates for a long time. But these are conceptually the same as an NFT, just accessible and tradable.
jacksnipe 5y ago
People definitely care about the price of the painting on your wall, the price of your car, and the price of the restaurant they’re eating at, though. Even if they don’t directly care, you had better believe that the price of a Rolls Royce shapes the way that people think about them; and you buy one because of the way people will think about it. Same goes with the art you put on your wall (an incredible painting that you got for cheap will never be as cool as something by someone whose art is in the MoMA, even if it’s still very cool). I’m not sure NFTs are going anywhere either, but some people definitely care about receipts. Conspicuous consumption can be very conscious.
- clpm4j 5y ago
  These are the worst type of people.
  - oleganza 5y ago
    Signalling is how mating works which leads to procreation that repeats the same process. If you don't signal your worthiness by winning contests, looking good, showing money, earning respect or in any other meaningful way, you are less likely to find a good matching spouse that will lead to more copies of you down the road.
    - dgellow 5y ago
      Would you then expect rich people to be the only one able to reproduce, or at least that as a group they would reproduce more than poor people? Because the exact opposite is true in the US, the poorer you are, the higher your birth rate: https://www.statista.com/statistics/241530/birth-rate-by-family-income-in-the-us/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/241530/birth-rate-by-fam...
    - number6 5y ago
      sounds like straight out of the manosphere
    - randomsearch 5y ago
eightysixfour 5y ago
The Real Real is a $1b company because people care about provenance in the real world and now there's a place for it in a digital space. Do I think Bored Apes are worth thousands of dollars? Absolutely not. Will it crash? Absolutely. Do I think it is starting as a stupid toy and may eventually do more interesting things? Yes. If Reddit gives you an NFT for being a top poster for a year in a specific subreddit so you can show it off on Discord and Twitter, I don't see much value in that, but there are plenty of people who do, a lot.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- matwood 5y ago
  Exactly, it's all about showing off social status. All communities have way to convey status, even HN.
  - zepto 5y ago
    Medals for distinguished service to a social media corporation’s mission to sell advertising.
- fwip 5y ago
  There's no reason for that Reddit thing to be an NFT. Twitter or Discord could simply integrate w/ Reddit API and pull that shit up.
  - lifeformed 5y ago
    And with the NFT, it doesn't show that you are the rewarded user, just that you have the trophy, since it could be transferred.
    - eightysixfour 5y ago
      Just that you are the wallet holder, the contract could block transfers.
everfree 5y ago
> Nobody ever had a problem with verifiable receipts when attending concerts or buying a car or eating at a restaurant. They do when buying physical artwork, coins, stamps, pokemon cards or other collectibles. There are plenty of things people buy that are only valuable because they are provably "genuine", and would be worthless if they were exact replicas with no provenance.
anecdotal1 5y ago
> Nobody ever had a problem with verifiable receipts when attending concerts or buying a car or eating at a restaurant. My friends won a contest for an all inclusive trip to the Super Bowl a few years ago when it was in Arizona. Flight was good, hotel was good, but they showed up to the stadium for the game... fake tickets. Someone scammed the people running the contest. (I think it was a radio station -- need to check) NFTs fix this in a way nobody else in the industry is.
- listenallyall 5y ago
  Ummm... I think your friends were scammed. By the radio company. Never intended to procure the (very expensive) tix.

exdsq 5y ago

Hey, I have a ticket to your favorite band. I’m selling it for $25 and you really want to buy it from me, but you don’t know me - this is our first contact! How do you buy it from me?

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
GauntletWizard 5y ago
Reputation of the provenance and authenticity of goods is an entirely different problem.
- exdsq 5y ago
  Sure! The tricky bit here, in my mind is: 1. How do you know the ticket is valid? 2a. How do you know I send the ticket after you pay me? 2b. How do I know you send the money after I send the ticket? 3. How do you know I don't send the ticket to someone else too, if it's digital?
  - GauntletWizard 5y ago
    A ticket is valid if and only if it gets you into the concert. You can ask the concert organizers to validate tickets for you. Most concert organizers have concentrated on two sites that allow them to validate tickets. That is why Ticketmaster is valuable, despite its terrible reputation. A cryptographically signed I owe you is and will always be meaningless. What is meaningful is the signature at the end of the chain, when the concert organizer lets you in.
Scarblac 5y ago
The nice thing of selling on concert tickets on a public block chain is that it's public, so those tickets can be invalidated easily. Everybody hates ticket resellers.
eckmLJE 5y ago
In person with cash or stubhub.
- exdsq 5y ago
  Stubhub has a 10% fee for the buyer and a 15% fee for the seller. It also can’t guarantee tickets are valid, they do guarantee a refund to the buyer if they’re false though. This is more expensive and less safe than an NFT ticket.
  - remram 5y ago
    Did anyone actually implement any blockchain-based ticketing? Why do you think the fee collected by a company doing that would be lower than StubHub? Importantly, wouldn't those tokens be... fungible...?
  - duskwuff 5y ago
    And what makes you think that ticket sellers would implement such a system? The pure goodness of their hearts? (My understanding is that NFTs can be constructed to charge a fee on transfers. At least, this is what I've been told by people trying to promote their use for artwork...)
    - exdsq 5y ago
      This would require a smart contract, a react front-end to make the UX a little nicer, and a little maintenance. If I charge $1 fees per ticket tx I'd undercut the market and it wouldn't be that hard.
      - acdha 5y ago
        Do you think Ticketmaster charges so much because their copy of MySQL runs on crushed Ming vases? They charge as much as they do because they have removed a lot of competition from the market (see e.g. jwz - https://www.dnalounge.com/backstage/log/2018/01/31.html https://www.dnalounge.com/backstage/log/2018/01/31.html). There’s no reason why they would implement an NFT where they’d get less money — in fact, they’re the kind of unethical weasels who’d figure out as many ways to hide fees in the smart contracts and play games with the blockchain they use to maximize their take.
peoplefromibiza 5y ago
my story: I was in Barcelona, wanted to go to Primavera Sound to see Pavement, went outside the gates, met a guy who was selling his ticket, gave him the money and BOOM! 5 minutes later I was under the stage.
sprain 5y ago
If you sell it to me as an NFT, how do I know it‘s not a fake NFT ticket or even a fake event? All potential solutions to that question have one thing in common: An event has by definition a centralized entity, which is the organizer. Everything that a blockchain supposedly solves in event ticketing is after all a solution due to digitization, not decentralization.
- 3371 5y ago
  I don't like NFT too but have some knowledge about it. > If you sell it to me as an NFT, how do I know it‘s not a fake NFT ticket or even a fake event? This is actually not a problem at all: - It's not likely you'd buy ticket for some event that you don't know/not interested. - The event official (which you already know) should publish these info for query: - The blockchain - The contract address - The NFT token ID If you bought a proclaimed ticket NFT but it's fake, the only possibility is the official that you trust is a fraud.
  - sprain 5y ago
    Ok, so I‘ll have to check with the event official. How often do you actually know who that really is? Let‘s say Beyoncé is coming to the arena closest to you. Are you aware of who actually organizes that event and is in charge? Ticket buyers most often don‘t know and don‘t care. Plus, if I have to go to the central entity and check all that data, where is the benefit of going decentralized?
    - 3371 5y ago
      Hey, no matter how you buy a ticket, it'd have to be verified by the official eventually. > How often do you actually know who that really is? Let‘s say Beyoncé is coming to the arena closest to you. Interesting, so you are saying either: - Beyoncé official publish nothing about the event - We have no way to look up the ticket info Not likely IMO especially if we are talking stars like Beyoncé. > Plus, if I have to go to the central entity and check all that data, where is the benefit of going decentralized? Well, de-centralization is nothing about convenience, and it's not just about ticket-selling. I totally agree that blockchain & web3 is not mature at all comparing to how it is now, and I don't think it's going to be success unless they find a way to generally interact with real-world technically and legally.

krrishd 5y ago

> Nobody ever had a problem with verifiable receipts when attending concerts or buying a car or eating at a restaurant Sorry, but spoken like someone who has no idea how the fashion industry operates. Seriously though, it’s one thing to not like the superficiality of the fashion market, but to deny that NFTs exploit the same demand (for less-gauche proof of wealth) seems wrong.

r3trohack3r 5y ago
I think OPs point is NFT style guarantees exist without NFT technology. Recently I learned folks appraise ‘64 mustangs based on VIN and markings - so they know how close to the “first off the lot” that mustang was. They don’t need a blockchain to do that. I think there is a valid point to this take - humans don’t need irrefutable cryptographic proof that something has a story attached to it; they just need enough compelling evidence the story attached to an object is true. And the kinds of stories folks value tend to be human stories (this is the crown worn by so and so, this is the finger bone of saint so and so, etc.) which NFTs can’t capture.
- miracle2k 5y ago
  The NFT is not about cryptographic proof. It's about creating something that such a story can attach to for digital pieces of art; w/o the token, digital art has no ownable identity. You indeed do not need a blockchain - the artworld has been doing it using paper certificates for a long time. But these are conceptually the same as an NFT, just accessible and tradable.

jacksnipe 5y ago

People definitely care about the price of the painting on your wall, the price of your car, and the price of the restaurant they’re eating at, though. Even if they don’t directly care, you had better believe that the price of a Rolls Royce shapes the way that people think about them; and you buy one because of the way people will think about it. Same goes with the art you put on your wall (an incredible painting that you got for cheap will never be as cool as something by someone whose art is in the MoMA, even if it’s still very cool). I’m not sure NFTs are going anywhere either, but some people definitely care about receipts. Conspicuous consumption can be very conscious.

clpm4j 5y ago
These are the worst type of people.
- oleganza 5y ago
  Signalling is how mating works which leads to procreation that repeats the same process. If you don't signal your worthiness by winning contests, looking good, showing money, earning respect or in any other meaningful way, you are less likely to find a good matching spouse that will lead to more copies of you down the road.
  - dgellow 5y ago
    Would you then expect rich people to be the only one able to reproduce, or at least that as a group they would reproduce more than poor people? Because the exact opposite is true in the US, the poorer you are, the higher your birth rate: https://www.statista.com/statistics/241530/birth-rate-by-family-income-in-the-us/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/241530/birth-rate-by-fam...
  - number6 5y ago
    sounds like straight out of the manosphere
  - randomsearch 5y ago

eightysixfour 5y ago

The Real Real is a $1b company because people care about provenance in the real world and now there's a place for it in a digital space. Do I think Bored Apes are worth thousands of dollars? Absolutely not. Will it crash? Absolutely. Do I think it is starting as a stupid toy and may eventually do more interesting things? Yes. If Reddit gives you an NFT for being a top poster for a year in a specific subreddit so you can show it off on Discord and Twitter, I don't see much value in that, but there are plenty of people who do, a lot.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
matwood 5y ago
Exactly, it's all about showing off social status. All communities have way to convey status, even HN.
- zepto 5y ago
  Medals for distinguished service to a social media corporation’s mission to sell advertising.
fwip 5y ago
There's no reason for that Reddit thing to be an NFT. Twitter or Discord could simply integrate w/ Reddit API and pull that shit up.
- lifeformed 5y ago
  And with the NFT, it doesn't show that you are the rewarded user, just that you have the trophy, since it could be transferred.
  - eightysixfour 5y ago
    Just that you are the wallet holder, the contract could block transfers.

everfree 5y ago

> Nobody ever had a problem with verifiable receipts when attending concerts or buying a car or eating at a restaurant. They do when buying physical artwork, coins, stamps, pokemon cards or other collectibles. There are plenty of things people buy that are only valuable because they are provably "genuine", and would be worthless if they were exact replicas with no provenance.

anecdotal1 5y ago

> Nobody ever had a problem with verifiable receipts when attending concerts or buying a car or eating at a restaurant. My friends won a contest for an all inclusive trip to the Super Bowl a few years ago when it was in Arizona. Flight was good, hotel was good, but they showed up to the stadium for the game... fake tickets. Someone scammed the people running the contest. (I think it was a radio station -- need to check) NFTs fix this in a way nobody else in the industry is.

listenallyall 5y ago
Ummm... I think your friends were scammed. By the radio company. Never intended to procure the (very expensive) tix.