4 ms·

One thing that saddens me in the region I live is the lack of diversity in forests and therefore also in lumber selection. Quickly googling up some stats, 65% o

by zokier 5y ago

One thing that saddens me in the region I live is the lack of diversity in forests and therefore also in lumber selection. Quickly googling up some stats, 65% of forests are pine and 24% spruce. Only major hardwood would be birch (9% of forests), and its usually not available as lumber afaik. One of my dreams (in the category "if I were a billionaire") would be to buy some large piece of land and plant all sort of interesting trees to create a sort of fantasy forest.

gotorazor 5y ago
Not true. I used to work at a lumber company. If you're in North America, you can usually buy some kind of hardwood. For utility lumber, they probably can't tell you what kind of hardwood it is, but it will be hardwood.
- zokier 5y ago
  > If you're in North America, you can usually buy some kind of hardwood That's the thing, I'm not in NA, so pretty much any hardwoods available here are "exotic" imports.
- markdown 5y ago
  How could they not tell what type of hardwood it is? In my (tropical) country, different timber looks very different, and anyone working in hardware or construction should be able to tell on sight what type of tree a plant came from.
  - tupshin 5y ago
    https://woodidentification.net/about/ https://woodidentification.net/about/ "Identifying wood is not easy for a number of reasons. First, there are hundreds of different species of trees in North America. Second, the wood of many species looks very similar, if not identical."
  - gotorazor 5y ago
    It depends on the purpose and grade of the lumber. I have worked an "exotic" lumber dealer that can definitely offer different species and grades of wood from all over the world -- including CITES (endangered species list) lumber with the proper certificates. But their customers are typically woodworkers that want a specific species for a specific look. So it's usually cabinet and furniture makers etc. I have also worked at a "discount" industrial lumber distributer. They are selling wood to be made into pallets or used at a construction site for bracing. In those cases, the hardwood species are a lot less important. The customer just needs something much stronger than the standard SPF. It's a fascinating industry. I learned a lot working that job -- even tho I was just implement their ERP systems.
- rootusrootus 5y ago
  I am guessing any unidentified utility hardwood is likely to be poplar. Next guess would be red oak, though in my experience that is usually identified and it costs a bit more. And it comes in less utility sizes than poplar.
  - gotorazor 5y ago
    It's really a mix. Usually they get mixed in as "utility" hardwood because those pieces don't make appearance grade. I have seen cords of walnut and cherry mixed in a bundle of utility hardwood before. They just didn't look good for making a cabinetry set or a end-table.
SECProto 5y ago
If you're looking for this kind of product, it's usually best to go to specialty milling places (small studios that will mill custom lumber - eg traditional beadboards etc - they often have unusual supplies) or a dedicated hardwood supplier ($$$). These options may or may not work/exist where you live, but around me I can source some specialty hardwoods and softwoods (eg tamarack[1]) that definitely aren't available at regular shops. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larix_laricina https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larix_laricina
Spooky23 5y ago
It’s not what I would call common, but people do it. As small agriculture consolidates and goes out of business, some wacky rich guys buy farms and turn them in legacy tree farms. I grew up and went to school in a rural area of NY, one of my old friends maintains properties like this for clients as a side gig for his farm work. The area was selected to benefit from climate change. In one case, just in terms of black walnut trees, when mature in 50-60 years, there is the equivalent of $10-12M (at todays prices) worth of timber for the owner’s descendants. The trust structure saves cash on taxes as well.
- konfusinomicon 5y ago
  wow that is a really interesting investment vehicle. provided your descendants don't mess up and sell the land
- shagie 5y ago
  For black walnut - there's a spot that I've seen that does this. Not too large, but its been there for about 30 years. https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1517879,-89.6032561,3a,75y,31.96h,93.99t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1skOE3WKW3FPL2c8lDSovv9A!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DkOE3WKW3FPL2c8lDSovv9A%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D48.56889%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192 https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1517879,-89.6032561,3a,75y,3... That plot is (measuring, mathing)... about 3 acres. https://www.profitableplantsdigest.com/growing-walnut-trees-for-profit/ https://www.profitableplantsdigest.com/growing-walnut-trees-... puts it at $100k/acre. > For those with time and patience, a living legacy of walnut trees can be a priceless gift for children and grandchildren. According to professional timberland investors, the average return from a stand of walnut trees is 14 percent a year, with no taxes due until harvest. That beats returns on bonds, stocks and most other investments handily, and with intercropping, growers can even produce an income while the walnut trees continue to grow.
  - Spooky23 5y ago
    Yes, and if you’re rich, there are many ways that you can leverage tax incentives and trusts to create perpetually tax free investments. Unfortunately, US tax law is creating a new feudal aristocracy, with food production shifting to latifundia like models, and the aristocrats wielding tax exempt dynastic wealth. Even for normal people, some of these properties, especially defunct dairy farms are tragically cheap and not too polluted. My dad bought one for hunting and fishing purposes when he retired and made a modest income by leasing the land for hay. Not much, but enough to pay the taxes.
culi 5y ago
You don't really have to be a billionaire. Land is pretty cheap if you're far away from a city. And people start similar permaculture and agroforestry projects all the time. Also the reason for more monocultural forests like that is because the soil is high quality. If you had really low quality soil (like in the Amazon) you would have developed a lot more biodiversity
maxerickson 5y ago
Other species won't necessarily thrive in a situation like that. You describe a fairly cold tolerant mix there, for instance. Here in Michigan the species diversity of our forests has been declining due to disease. Elm, and now Ash and Beech have all been dramatically impacted by imported diseases.
theklub 5y ago
I feel like many parts of CT are already like this, random trees all over the place.

by zokier 5y ago

gotorazor 5y ago

Not true. I used to work at a lumber company. If you're in North America, you can usually buy some kind of hardwood. For utility lumber, they probably can't tell you what kind of hardwood it is, but it will be hardwood.

zokier 5y ago
> If you're in North America, you can usually buy some kind of hardwood That's the thing, I'm not in NA, so pretty much any hardwoods available here are "exotic" imports.
markdown 5y ago
How could they not tell what type of hardwood it is? In my (tropical) country, different timber looks very different, and anyone working in hardware or construction should be able to tell on sight what type of tree a plant came from.
- tupshin 5y ago
  https://woodidentification.net/about/ https://woodidentification.net/about/ "Identifying wood is not easy for a number of reasons. First, there are hundreds of different species of trees in North America. Second, the wood of many species looks very similar, if not identical."
- gotorazor 5y ago
  It depends on the purpose and grade of the lumber. I have worked an "exotic" lumber dealer that can definitely offer different species and grades of wood from all over the world -- including CITES (endangered species list) lumber with the proper certificates. But their customers are typically woodworkers that want a specific species for a specific look. So it's usually cabinet and furniture makers etc. I have also worked at a "discount" industrial lumber distributer. They are selling wood to be made into pallets or used at a construction site for bracing. In those cases, the hardwood species are a lot less important. The customer just needs something much stronger than the standard SPF. It's a fascinating industry. I learned a lot working that job -- even tho I was just implement their ERP systems.
rootusrootus 5y ago
I am guessing any unidentified utility hardwood is likely to be poplar. Next guess would be red oak, though in my experience that is usually identified and it costs a bit more. And it comes in less utility sizes than poplar.
- gotorazor 5y ago
  It's really a mix. Usually they get mixed in as "utility" hardwood because those pieces don't make appearance grade. I have seen cords of walnut and cherry mixed in a bundle of utility hardwood before. They just didn't look good for making a cabinetry set or a end-table.

SECProto 5y ago

If you're looking for this kind of product, it's usually best to go to specialty milling places (small studios that will mill custom lumber - eg traditional beadboards etc - they often have unusual supplies) or a dedicated hardwood supplier ($$$). These options may or may not work/exist where you live, but around me I can source some specialty hardwoods and softwoods (eg tamarack[1]) that definitely aren't available at regular shops. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larix_laricina https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larix_laricina

Spooky23 5y ago

It’s not what I would call common, but people do it. As small agriculture consolidates and goes out of business, some wacky rich guys buy farms and turn them in legacy tree farms. I grew up and went to school in a rural area of NY, one of my old friends maintains properties like this for clients as a side gig for his farm work. The area was selected to benefit from climate change. In one case, just in terms of black walnut trees, when mature in 50-60 years, there is the equivalent of $10-12M (at todays prices) worth of timber for the owner’s descendants. The trust structure saves cash on taxes as well.

konfusinomicon 5y ago
wow that is a really interesting investment vehicle. provided your descendants don't mess up and sell the land
shagie 5y ago
For black walnut - there's a spot that I've seen that does this. Not too large, but its been there for about 30 years. https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1517879,-89.6032561,3a,75y,31.96h,93.99t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1skOE3WKW3FPL2c8lDSovv9A!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DkOE3WKW3FPL2c8lDSovv9A%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D48.56889%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192 https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1517879,-89.6032561,3a,75y,3... That plot is (measuring, mathing)... about 3 acres. https://www.profitableplantsdigest.com/growing-walnut-trees-for-profit/ https://www.profitableplantsdigest.com/growing-walnut-trees-... puts it at $100k/acre. > For those with time and patience, a living legacy of walnut trees can be a priceless gift for children and grandchildren. According to professional timberland investors, the average return from a stand of walnut trees is 14 percent a year, with no taxes due until harvest. That beats returns on bonds, stocks and most other investments handily, and with intercropping, growers can even produce an income while the walnut trees continue to grow.
- Spooky23 5y ago
  Yes, and if you’re rich, there are many ways that you can leverage tax incentives and trusts to create perpetually tax free investments. Unfortunately, US tax law is creating a new feudal aristocracy, with food production shifting to latifundia like models, and the aristocrats wielding tax exempt dynastic wealth. Even for normal people, some of these properties, especially defunct dairy farms are tragically cheap and not too polluted. My dad bought one for hunting and fishing purposes when he retired and made a modest income by leasing the land for hay. Not much, but enough to pay the taxes.

culi 5y ago

You don't really have to be a billionaire. Land is pretty cheap if you're far away from a city. And people start similar permaculture and agroforestry projects all the time. Also the reason for more monocultural forests like that is because the soil is high quality. If you had really low quality soil (like in the Amazon) you would have developed a lot more biodiversity

maxerickson 5y ago

Other species won't necessarily thrive in a situation like that. You describe a fairly cold tolerant mix there, for instance. Here in Michigan the species diversity of our forests has been declining due to disease. Elm, and now Ash and Beech have all been dramatically impacted by imported diseases.

theklub 5y ago

I feel like many parts of CT are already like this, random trees all over the place.