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Group of monkeys kill over 250 dogs for 'revenge' in Indian town
- throwawaysea 5y agoIf an instinct or circuitry around revenge can exist in monkeys, I wonder if humans can ever fully escape that tendency, or if it is just built into who we are.
- HamburgerEmoji 5y agoWe can train ourselves. The methods are very old, but hardly anyone knows about them, much less actually does them every day. They are things like the Brahmaviharas.
- true_religion 5y agoWhen humans cull all the wolves in an area because they killed a child, we don’t call it revenge. We call it animal control.
- 323 5y agoThe purpose of revenge is to cause pain. Animal control tries to do just that, control. If a written sign would be enough, those wolves would not have been culled (except maybe the ones which actually killed tje child).
- pvaldes 5y ago> When humans cull all the wolves in an area because they killed a child Wolves normally don't do that. Not unless they have rabies. We should stop seeing the nature as if we were still in the XVII century. The logical answer would be to direct the revenge against the real culprit, the rabies virus. Kill the rabid wolf and vaccinate other local wolves against rabies. Wolves learn quickly that must keep their distance with humans. Culling all the wolves in the area leads to more humans killed, by herbivores.
- doovd 5y agoWhy is it something humans must "escape"?
- newsbinator 5y agoRevenge is counter-productive most of the time. It's only really useful when you want to galvanize a population into suicide. Otherwise you get into a cycle of revenge for revenge for revenge that wastes everybody's energy.
- fidesomnes 5y ago[dead]
- PeterisP 5y ago"Circuitry around revenge" is probably a beneficial social "skill" for facilitating group cooperation, there's all kinds of game theory (e.g. basic things like iterated prisoners dilemma tit-for-tat strategy) that suggests that knowing about the presence of revenge acts and a likelihood of punishing defection (even at extra 'expense' for the punisher) deters defection, and allows to reach a better shared result. I.e. if we simply could abandon that at the flip of a switch, I'm not sure if we should, it's plausible that it would make all kinds of abuse less risky and thus more attractive, increasing the abuse happening in the world.
- Comevius 5y agoMacaques are very intelligent animals, more importantly they are successful because of their Machiavellian tendencies, just like we are. Unfortunately while this behavior is useful at conquering the world, it becomes counterproductive later on.
- tantalor 5y agoHG Wells speculates about this in The Time Machine. The futuristic humans lost their revenge instinct and are helpless against their subterranean tormenters.
- cdrini 5y agoI don't remember the loss of the "revenge instinct" being a part of that book. The future humans had optimized for comfort/happiness so much that they evolved to be more and more docile and childlike. They lost their intelligence and evolved into stupid beasts again because they had no evolutionary pressure to become anything else. They didn't lose their self-preservatory instinct -- they just lost the only defensive tool humans have evolved that lets us compete/win against all other animals: our intelligence. Kind of like those birds in a New Zealand island that evolved to be too fat to fly, because the island had no predators. And then cats got accidentally introduced to the island.
- potatochup 5y agoNew Zealand has/had plenty of predators, they were just all avian [0], [1], which hunt by sight, and during the day [2]. Existing/nesting on the ground with good visual camouflage is a adaptation to avoid avian predators. Obviously it doesn't work that well against mammalian predators. - [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealand_falcon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealand_falcon - [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haast%27s_eagle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haast%27s_eagle - [2] exception here being the Ruru (an Owl)
- cdrini 5y agoOf course we can; the point of having such huge brains is that we can override our animal instincts if we want to. Same reason you can convince yourself to jump off a cliff into water even if you're scared of heights. Or how you can convince yourself to skip meals to get your work done. Or to not physically fight someone when you're in a disagreement. Or to not cheat when in a relationship. Not being slaves to our animals instincts is kind of what makes humans human.
- vmception 5y ago> villagers began attempting to rescue the dogs on their own. But some of them have found themselves subject to the monkeys' retaliation, and some have even injured themselves or fallen from buildings how strong are these monkeys? I mean I know monkeys are strong but can they really ambush a human, and push them over a ledge? can they kidnap a human, carry them upward and drop them over a ledge?
- true_religion 5y agoI think it’s implied that the people are just falling because they are startled or otherwise defending themselves against monkey strikes.
- tebruno99 5y agoHave You ever tried to pull Yourself up to the top of a tree with 1 arm in 30 seconds?
- olalonde 5y agoChimp muscles are stronger than ours but we are often stronger than them in absolute terms because we are bigger (more muscle mass).
- abc_lisper 5y agoWe are not stronger, we have more stamina. There is a difference
- WastingMyTime89 5y agoWe both are stronger and have more stamina than macaques. The biggest male adult macaques are 18kg. That’s probably more that the average adult can raise with one arm but not by much and I insist on average. That’s nothing exceptional for someone in shape. Considering the weight and power in a human leg, a swift kick would seriously harm and probably kill an average macaque. The issue is not strength here.
- garyclarke27 5y agoI’d like to see these Monkeys try and capture my 54kg (129lb) Doberman. He is ridiculously strong, has broken a few collars and is impossible to move if he decides to stay put.
- newsbinator 5y agoMonkeys are ridiculously strong and vicious when they go to war in groups.
- Consultant32452 5y agoMonkeys are also capable of tool/weapon use.
- AzzieElbab 5y agoI don’t think Indian villagers would be thrilled by your dog if they had to feed it
- lolcomeon 5y agoCalm down, internet tough guy.
- distantaidenn 5y agoSorry buddy, but a troop of larger monkeys would tear any dog to shreds -- doesn't matter the breed or size. They're fast, strong, agile, and smart.
- option_greek 5y agoI hope the dog is stronger than these guys: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAWy9DqsnU0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAWy9DqsnU0
- wiseowise 5y agoThose are tiger cubs. I'm pretty sure even juvenile tigers would rip it to shreds if they wanted to.
- darkwater 5y agoPhilosophical question, assuming kt's not a fake news: are those monkeys "evil"? If they revenge is agains siblings of the aggressor or just dogs in general, I would say so. Looks like they are intelligent enough to be evil.
- fidesomnes 5y agoA terror attack on Christmas parade revelers in Wisconsin is what?
- volent 5y ago> evil > profoundly immoral and wicked. I think the concept that animal can be moral / immoral is already a philosophical subject. See the book "Can Animals Be Moral?" for reference. And in order to say that these monkeys are evil, you must first prove that they can be moral.
- tantalor 5y agoWhich is to say they know right from wrong. I doubt it "Law of the jungle" and all that
- foxfluff 5y agoIt depends on whether you view evil as something absolute or relative. If evil is absolute, then an animal (or an entire species) can be seen as evil by nature. Another species may be seen as good or neutral by nature even if the animal itself has no sense of right or wrong. It is indeed very philosophical and also up to your beliefs and values.
- resoluteteeth 5y agoIf it's evil for primates to kill 250 dogs after one primate infant was killed is it evil for primates to kill 17 million minks because they could get a virus and theoretically spread that to primates?
- GekkePrutser 5y ago
- ipeefreely 5y agoI'm not sure if monkeys experience revenge the way humans do. As one of the comments mentioned in the article, it's probably just a survival instinct.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- option_greek 5y agoI doubt that. Try shooting an arrow at a crow (obviously not killing it) or throw a stone at a group of monkeys the next time chance presents it self. Not a good idea. One of my childhood nemesis were a group of crows from a tree nearby at which I shot an arrow with a home made toy bow (none were even hit). Those things harassed me for months before eventually forgetting (forgiving?) the incident :)
- rambambram 5y agoSounds like a story I once read in a children horror book.
- itronitron 5y agoCorvids are interesting, I've definitely been checked out by the ones in my neighborhood.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- xwdv 5y agoIt is also possible to make friends with crows. You should have brought an offering of roasted nuts, and they would likely have made a truce.
- stef25 5y ago> throw a stone at a group of monkeys the next time chance presents it self In places like the Monkey Temple in Bali that's exactly how you keep them at bay. In our local zoo where you can interact with lemurs, they can be chased away with a small water spray.
- dukeofdoom 5y agoBaboons have been know to kidnapping puppies too. They live with the troop and offer protection as warning/guard dogs. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2lSZPTa3ho https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2lSZPTa3ho
- csomar 5y agoWow. It might be possible that our relation/domestication of dogs started well before we become sapiens. Because, why would the baboons pick a dog and not a tiger.
- technothrasher 5y agoA professional baboon researcher disagrees with the conclusions of that youtube clip: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/animals-and-us/201507/baboons-might-kidnap-puppies-not-pets https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/animals-and-us/20150...
- cryptica 5y agoGreat... Now even the monkeys have a functioning justice system and we don't.
- jeidz 5y agoA devastating rampage of monkeys? I can think of some parallels.
- jimmyed 5y agoTrying to wipe out the other side is "a functioning justice system"? It was in 1942 after Reinhard Heydrich's killing.
- wiseowise 5y agoHow is that a functioning justice system?
- cryptica 5y agoAt least they punish the perpetrators... They over-punish whereas we under-punish. Under-punishment is worse because it implicitly punishes those who do the right thing by allowing perpetrators to get away with crimes; it encourages crime. Just wait 10 years and you will understand what I'm talking about. You severely underestimate how bad things have become. It will dawn on you suddenly like a nightmare from which you can't wake up. Maybe this comment seems alarmist but I'm trying to help. Read it with an open mind and a grain of salt. Better be alarmist than sorry.
- fallingknife 5y agoWhy are people surprised and shocked by this? If a pack of stray dogs killed a human child, we would exterminate them without further thought, and we would call it "animal control." Even when an otherwise protected species like a bear in a national park kills a human, we make an exception and kill that animal.
- tantalor 5y ago> Why are people surprised Who said anybody is surprised?
- fallingknife 5y agoIt's posted to HN. You wouldn't see "${western_city} Animal Control Removes Stray Dogs from Park After Child Killed" on HN.
- tantalor 5y agoIt's newsworthy because it's unusual, not surprising
- tsegers 5y agoAnd neither would you see headlines about a human child learning to read, yet if a monkey were to do the same it'd be up here in no time. The noteworthy thing here is not the activity performed, but what entity the activity was performed by.
- johndevor 5y agoThis is not a small group of dogs, but a prolonged war between two species.
- cdrini 5y agoUm, because it was monkeys that did it, not humans? And humans =/= to monkeys? It's surprising because (a) we generally consider revenge to be a human emotion, so seeing it in animals is a bit surprising, (b) seeing a coordinated attack between two species that are kind of adjacent on the food chain isn't super common. Killing in the animal world is primarily done for hunting. The monkeys aren't eating the dogs, they're just killing them.
- oxymoran 5y agoThis sounds just like human behavior of retribution in the mob and street gangs. Or even Twitter. Fascinating.
- hungryforcodes 5y agoClever. At least the problem of your babies being killed by errant dogs (from the monkies' point of view) is solved.
- cynusx 5y agoI remember from a visit in Kenya that the way they control monkeys was to keep shooting the alpha until eventually their next leader forces the group to retreat and leave the human settlements alone.
- jimmyed 5y agoWonder how many times this has been done with humans throughout history
- jdavis703 5y agoWhen America was trying to install a “democratic” government in Iraq there were a series of assassinations. In that case however the situation eventually stabilized. So that strategy is only as good as your opponents will. And it turns out there’s a lot of men who are willing to throw away their life in the hope of the power, money and prestige of being the top boss.
- polishdude20 5y agoI wouldnt be so quick to say they're throwing their life away. Imagine being in a group with a tyrannical boss. Installing yourself as the boss may actually help save your life and ensure a future for you and your community/tribe.
- cgriswald 5y agoRegardless, I wonder if there's a lot of men is the key factor here. Even if a reasonable fraction of a percent of the population isn't deterred by previous assassinations for a population in the millions, that's still a lot of replacements. The replacement rate of that subset of the population is almost certainly higher than the assassination rate.
- fellowniusmonk 5y agoI don't doubt that gambling it all for power, money and prestige is the most frequent motivation, but I think you do humanity a disservice when you don't also include principled... weirdos that believe things and count the cost do exist within the human race.
- sergiotapia 5y ago>Villagers reported that now there are barely any dogs left in the area but that the monkeys have not stopped even after a month of attacks. Now, villagers reported that the monkeys are targeting small children which has created a panic within the village. That's when you start shooting these monkeys on sight. Cull their numbers a bit. I've been bitten by a monkey as a child and it sucked. I hope the village starts splitting their wigs. Do they have guns?
- FlyingSnake 5y agoI grew up and studied in a University town in Central India, not far from Majalgaon FTA. I've personally witnessed the rivalry of the monkeys and the pariah dogs. In one particular instance a youngish dog was chasing the monkeys and wouldn't let them get on the ground. The leader of the monkey gang made a sudden move, swooped down and carried the dog pup on the tree and just dropped it from there. The pup survived and the dogs never tried to attack the monkeys after that instance. It was such a surreal scene that me an my friends couldn't believe what we witnessed. Monkeys, esp Langoor monkeys are a fearsome force in India and not to be messed with.
- unmole 5y ago> Langoor monkeys are a fearsome force in India and not to be messed with. I thought langoors were more friendly towards humans compared to macaques?
- FlyingSnake 5y agoAs a general rule, animals never attack first. When humans encroach the traditional lands of the animals there are conflicts waiting to happen. Monkeys are smart and usually don’t bother humans, unless it’s a matter of food or threat to their group. Edit: I'm surprised at the downvotes, isn't human-wildlife conflict in Indian forests well documented?
- PicassoCTs 5y agoAt least one animal does. Homo sapiens. We are not separate from nature, we are just a extreme of nature.
- frosted-flakes 5y agoThat's one interpretation of the word "animal". The use above clearly meant non-human animals.
- EamonnMR 5y ago
- gtoast 5y agoThis is the relevant news I need to stay up to date in the fast moving tech world. Thank you hacker news.
- sslayer 5y agoWitness the slow decline as censorship forces us to the last bastions of free speech
- iLoveOncall 5y agoThis is about as relevant to most people as the "article" about "x86, X64 Instruction Latency, Memory Latency and Cpuid Dumps" that nobody will read and is yet also on the frontpage today. HackerNews upvotes 2 kinds of content: interesting content, and content that makes HN readers look smarter than they are. Regardless of their relation to technology. This one is in the interesting category.
- 29athrowaway 5y agoSounds like a story taken from Dwarf fortress.
- drclau 5y agoIf you are in doubt about this being revenge, because you think revenge is exclusively a human behavior, then have a look at the Gombe Chimpanzee War [0]. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gombe_Chimpanzee_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gombe_Chimpanzee_War
- xeromal 5y agoThanks for sharing this. What a read though I wish it had more details!
- snek_case 5y agoPeople have this funny idea that war is a human invention and that nature would be peaceful and quiet without us. But it turns out ants and termites have been at it for probably over 100 million years: https://www.wearethemighty.com/articles/why-ants-and-termites-declare-war-on-each-other-on-sight/ https://www.wearethemighty.com/articles/why-ants-and-termite...
- juanani 5y agoI think that some people have noticed that greater progress is made through cooperation which is why they gape their mouths when the people running the war machine buy an extra yacht for their great grandkids.
- skyfaller 5y agoThanks for suggesting an interesting research topic! I found this article comparing how ants and humans wage war to be more insightful : https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/when-it-comes-waging-war-ants-humans-have-lot-common-180972169/ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/when-it-comes-...
- ilamont 5y agoIn Singapore last week, an older man was taking a morning walk in a park and spotted a pack of otters on the path ahead of him. At the same time, a jogger ran through the pack and startled them (some reports said trampled one of the pups). The reaction of the pack was to attack the nearest human - the older man: As the runner ran past Spencer and disappeared into the distance, the otters instead set their sights on Spencer and "went crazy". "I didn't move quick enough and they just jumped me and they [were] on me and severely bit my ankle, made me buckle, and they jumped on my bottom and pushed me. And these things like... massive... [these] things [are] like dogs." Spencer said that the otters even tried to bite his face, but their teeth sank into his finger instead when he raised his hands to defend himself. https://mothership.sg/2021/12/otters-bite-man-botanic-gardens/ https://mothership.sg/2021/12/otters-bite-man-botanic-garden... (Warning - graphic)
- lgvln 5y agoFYI, he ran into the path of a pack of otters during his morning run and that is the reason why he was “attacked”. It is very possible he stepped onto an otter while doing that too, which would explain their behaviour. What is interesting is he lawyered up, fabricated a fantastical story and somehow got the attention of Western media, all to seek compensation from the park. (And how many people believed him) Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. Think twice about running head-on into a pack of animals regardless of their size.
- lgvln 5y agoMy comment is getting downvoted but I still stand by my opinion that otters are not inherently aggressive like how a lion or tiger is. Extra care should be taken when dealing with wild animals, even if they look small and adorable. Running into a pack of wild animals is not something anyone should do.
- peanut_worm 5y agoOtters are relatives of weasels and badgers and like their relatives they are very aggressive.
- rejectfinite 5y agoThis site really has become india central. Holy shit.
- nitrogen 5y agoProbably depends on which time zones are in daylight when you visit.
- IYasha 5y agoDon't know why people are so reluctant to admit animals are highly developed intellectualy. The cocncept of revenge is usually just denied, despite common observations. Wild animals, mostly, of course. Ask farmers - they'll have one or two stories of crows taking revenge. Even on humans.
- DangitBobby 5y agoThe people commenting on the Newsweek page were saying exactly this, that there was a simpler instinctual mechanism to describe the monkey's behavior. Who knows why.
- wefarrell 5y agoThis is the most interesting part: "We've seen that when an individual is attacked in some way, the likelihood of them attacking someone related to their aggressor is higher," Poindexter told Gizmodo. "Typically there's a preference for attacking a third-party associated with the original aggressor, as opposed to the actual aggressor...for the most part, these acts of 'revenge' take place shortly after the attack." Poindexter also explained that groups of hyenas have been known to seek revenge on the aggressor's relatives instead of the actual aggressor.
- noisy_boy 5y agoI mean based on their intelligent behaviour it wouldn't be surprising to find out that they feel emotions like love towards their offspring (even if not necessarily in the exact same way as us) and they know how one feels at the loss of a loved one. So by extension, if they want to cause the greatest hurt to the opponent, hurting their loved ones would be quite effective.
- gswdh 5y agoThis is a gem for Karl Pilkington, true monkey news!
- rcpt 5y agoGreat. Get the cats next
- teawrecks 5y ago> But when officials attempted to catch the monkeys, they were unable to capture a single monkey. Sounds like they're in cahoots
- fnord77 5y agoSo I'm guessing that without intervention, two distinct sentient groups would be at constant warfare with each other until one group was extinct. Is this what happened with early hominids and why there aren't other creatures that have evolved to the same level of intelligence as humans?
- xwdv 5y agoEating diets rich in fat was key for early hominid brain development. Probably why other creatures haven’t evolved to our levels of intelligence.
- jessaustin 5y agoGP referred to other hominids. I'm pretty sure Neanderthals liked eating fat too.
- fault1 5y agoThis story reminds me of Jane Goodall writing about the Gombe Chimpanzee War: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gombe_Chimpanzee_War#War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gombe_Chimpanzee_War#War
- Bendy 5y agoEven if you fight, you cannot win.
- jbuhbjlnjbn 5y agoI'm confident humans will always win against monkeys. It's just not worth the effort at first. But when the situation escalates, like it seems to be when infants are at risk, those monkeys will eventually be captured or killed off.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- sriram_sun 5y agoA relative who is a recent grad. from IIT Chennai/Madras has lots of monkey stories. They rule the dorms. No food in rooms, don't make eye contact. It's not like don't make eye contact if you ever see one. The monkeys are sitting on the ledge all the way up on both sides of the stairs up to the second or third floor as you walk up to your dorm room! They also "adopted" a stray dog just to chase the monkeys away.
- victornomad 5y agoOnce I was walking in the street in the north of India and sudenly I was surrounded by a pack of dogs and monkeys, they started to fight, with me in the middle... a dog was nervous and bit me as well. I went straight to the hospital to get the rabbies vaccine... apart from that I have very fond memories of India!
- qwertyuiop_ 5y agoThey even have a monkey god. May be the legend stems from the furious monkeys.
- mrtweetyhack 5y agoLet's teach them to use guns
- stoicjumbotron 5y agoRise of the planet of the apes
- korginator 5y agoI've seen a version of this behaviour in Lopburi, Thailand and in some places around Bali. Make no mistake, these primates can get ferocious, they carry several diseases and can cause serious bodily harm to large sized human adults. Don't go near them, don't encourage them and for $DEITY's sake don't feed them. They are wild and potentially dangerous animals. The incident I witnessed was described to me by a local as a war between two rival monkey gangs battling for food scraps. Things were getting dangerous, the monkeys would snarl at people just walking along the street, and sometimes lunge and attack people carrying any sort of food. I've seen people get scratched and bitten.