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Great HN post. Thank you for OP for supplying the link. Through my various social engagements, I've spent time in many political discussions. Trump, politics,

by scrubs 5y ago

Great HN post. Thank you for OP for supplying the link. Through my various social engagements, I've spent time in many political discussions. Trump, politics, race, and anti-vaccination are recurring themes. Some observations: * Those on the left tend to insert race into situations in which it does not naturally arise as I see it. Here focus is nominally on inclusion/significance of minorities. It periodically comes with a tone of judgement something like getting a visit from an evangelical at your door. Listen to NPR: at least around north east cities it's replete and centered on identity politics. * Those on the right tend to insert race into situations in which it does not naturally arise as I see it. Sometime emphasis here comes as self-righteous anger, feeling excluded, and kind of self-imposed victimization of thought or culture putatively at the hand know-it-all-liberals. * Older guys on the right side who are pro-Trump, anti-vax tend be the angry individuals spending time recollecting the good-ol-days when guys were hardcore men. I sometimes probe these older guys with questions. What I tend to get is a lot o whining, frustration but little in the way of answers. That's a shame: us older guys are supposed to have some answers standing on the shoulders of our own experience. My view then is the emotionalism, complaining, putative self-righteous anger, and whining is a layer on top of a more basic problem which is victimization. And that sits on an even deeper layer of lack of competence broadly speaking on what to do about it. Whether it's "stop the steal", deep state, MSM (mainstream media) there's a running sense of we're victums. Look at headlines. You'll see plenty of "The real truth behind..." (i.e. you've been lied to elsewhere), "The dirty little secret at..." (i.e. people have omitted information we're strong enough to tell you). I yet remain convinced that the majority of Americans (of which I am one) know full-well the solutions are at the center. I also feel like almost all Americans are sick-and-tired of the 24-7 soap opera from the talking heads on TV, and headless voices on AM/FM.

ss108 5y ago
Indeed; there is way too much identity politics now. It's all identity politics. Dems had a chance with Trump to rise and be above the identity politics, and to focus on more universal goods, such as the rule of law, having a non-conspiracy based response to covid (Trump lowered the bar so much lol), etc. I don't think they properly seized it.
- Hokusai 5y ago
  > there is way too much identity politics now It's a strategy to divide the working class. With raising inequality you need to do something with the people that are unhappy. Or you give them money, and reduce inequality so they are happier; or you give them an enemy to fight so they forget about the money. A similar thing happened after the great depression of the 30s and culminated with communism and fascism rising to power. Communism was driven by angry workers that wanted a fair share of the money. Fascism was driven by identity politics and workers more worried about identity than money, they wanted everybody to be like the ideal themselves. So, or we end inequality, or communism comes back, or identity politics takes over. For me the first option is the best, but it's very difficult to achieve.
  - snek_case 5y ago
    You can never "end inequality". The best you can hope for is a level playing field, equal opportunity, as much as possible. There's a lot of things we could be doing to make that happen. It probably starts with more fair, universal access to education and trying to make sure that all children have their basic needs met, regardless of age or gender, but I think you are right that identity politics is a distraction for the working class. The powers that be are trying to make the mob angry at straw men such as "capitalism", "colonialism" and "the patriarchy", but in the mean time, nobody is discussing real, evidence-based measures we could be taking to make the world a better place, there's only posturing and finger pointing. IMO, we should be ensuring that the best, more positive aspects of capitalism are used to serve the best interests of humanity (i.e. stimulating investments in innovative technologies like electric cars). We should strive to have measures in place to prevent regulatory capture from fucking over startups in favor of inefficient zombie companies... And we should also have more scientists and engineers in the government, looking at evidence-based solutions to make sure we can comfortably provide housing, food, clothing, education and medical care to every child in the world, with a 5-year, 10-year and 25-year plan... Instead we have governments run by ex-lawyers and "activists" inventing new forms of victimhood.
    - theaeolist 5y ago
api 5y ago
> a more basic problem which is victimization. And that sits on an even deeper layer of lack of competence broadly speaking on what to do about it. Maybe the issue is that our culture, economy, and technology has become so complex and exotic that very few people understand anything about how anything really works. We are surrounded by layers and layers of "magic." This might feel tremendously disempowering to people, especially older people who recall a simpler era when things were more understandable. Feeling like a victim seems to be a really common sentiment across the board.
- sanxiyn 5y ago
  I must note "things were more understandable" is an illusion. Ever since the iron age, very few people understood the art of ironmaking. People have been living in magic for a very long time.
  - ClumsyPilot 5y ago
    You are totally missing the point - A medieval peasant did well when they had good harvest, and did poorly when they had famine, this was pretty straight forward. Now you suffer from subprime mortgage based securities and cryptocurrency miners and microchip shortage you can't get a car or some shit. Same house increases in price 10x over lifetime because of - well, explanation takes a book. Go look at water bottle, it's made of materials average person can't even pronounce, popupropeline, polycarbonate. You put it in recycling but it killed a poor turtle in Indonesia because global supply chains and corruption. Is this really comparable to, 'I need a new plought, and i dont know exactly all detail of how cousin jimmy does his hammering?'
    - hattmall 5y ago
      Just the amount of rules we have to be cognizant of for a seemingly mundane everyday life is pretty overwhelming. 10 kinds of insurance, 20 types of taxes, what thoughts and ideas you can express and to whom, what's good and bad for you to eat, investment guidelines, HOAs, correct pronouns, and so so much more especially now with covid. I think we feel like victims because modern life is basically walking along a tight thread of avoiding becoming a victim. The reality of that is if we live in a space surrounded on all sides by prisons heuristically it's not that much different than actually being in one.
starkd 5y ago
This victimization is hardly exclusive to the right. You can make a good case it began on the left and is merely being mirrored in some quarters on the right. Probably because of the success it has brougth to trial lawyers as we've become an increasingly litigious society.
michaelmrose 5y ago
- bendbro 5y ago
- naasking 5y ago
  In 2016 plenty of people were calling Trump an illegitimate President, and before that Republicans were questioning Obama's legitimacy due to his birth certificate, and before that Gore and Bush had the Supreme Court settle their contested election, and before that was Clinton's impeachment any less partisan? You act as if this is some new phenomenon, but it's just the latest data point in a dangerous game played by both sides. Trump doesn't deserve this much paranoia. He's an incompetent buffoon that anyone could easily beat if the existing parties weren't so focused on playing their petty games at the expense of the people. So who's fault is it really if he wins?
  - 0134340 5y ago
    >You act as if this is some new phenomenon It's not new. What's new is having your tribe so convinced that an election was stolen and them so unquestioning that they storm and loot the capitol while being armed.
    - hattmall 5y ago
      Or you know having your tribe so convinced that they impeach the sitting president twice. People were calling for impeachment since day one. And in 2020 there isn't zero reason to think the election was stolen. There is overwhelming evidence that the amount of likely fraudulent ballots cast exceeds the margin of victory in several states.
      - NikolaeVarius 5y ago
        Present it
jrm4 5y ago
I don't think you're saying anything that can't adequately be explained by "more people on social media," and mainstream media more or less using that to stay relevant. As opposed to some sort of "new" brand of victimization or something. People are telling their own stories in an effort to be seen and to change how we do things. Compare and contrast with the much narrower mix of "public speaking" which was more driven by classic (yes, mostly white) American Boomer-esque capitalism of before. Seems pretty natural and expected so far, actually.

by scrubs 5y ago

ss108 5y ago

Indeed; there is way too much identity politics now. It's all identity politics. Dems had a chance with Trump to rise and be above the identity politics, and to focus on more universal goods, such as the rule of law, having a non-conspiracy based response to covid (Trump lowered the bar so much lol), etc. I don't think they properly seized it.

Hokusai 5y ago
> there is way too much identity politics now It's a strategy to divide the working class. With raising inequality you need to do something with the people that are unhappy. Or you give them money, and reduce inequality so they are happier; or you give them an enemy to fight so they forget about the money. A similar thing happened after the great depression of the 30s and culminated with communism and fascism rising to power. Communism was driven by angry workers that wanted a fair share of the money. Fascism was driven by identity politics and workers more worried about identity than money, they wanted everybody to be like the ideal themselves. So, or we end inequality, or communism comes back, or identity politics takes over. For me the first option is the best, but it's very difficult to achieve.
- snek_case 5y ago
  You can never "end inequality". The best you can hope for is a level playing field, equal opportunity, as much as possible. There's a lot of things we could be doing to make that happen. It probably starts with more fair, universal access to education and trying to make sure that all children have their basic needs met, regardless of age or gender, but I think you are right that identity politics is a distraction for the working class. The powers that be are trying to make the mob angry at straw men such as "capitalism", "colonialism" and "the patriarchy", but in the mean time, nobody is discussing real, evidence-based measures we could be taking to make the world a better place, there's only posturing and finger pointing. IMO, we should be ensuring that the best, more positive aspects of capitalism are used to serve the best interests of humanity (i.e. stimulating investments in innovative technologies like electric cars). We should strive to have measures in place to prevent regulatory capture from fucking over startups in favor of inefficient zombie companies... And we should also have more scientists and engineers in the government, looking at evidence-based solutions to make sure we can comfortably provide housing, food, clothing, education and medical care to every child in the world, with a 5-year, 10-year and 25-year plan... Instead we have governments run by ex-lawyers and "activists" inventing new forms of victimhood.
  - theaeolist 5y ago

api 5y ago

> a more basic problem which is victimization. And that sits on an even deeper layer of lack of competence broadly speaking on what to do about it. Maybe the issue is that our culture, economy, and technology has become so complex and exotic that very few people understand anything about how anything really works. We are surrounded by layers and layers of "magic." This might feel tremendously disempowering to people, especially older people who recall a simpler era when things were more understandable. Feeling like a victim seems to be a really common sentiment across the board.

sanxiyn 5y ago
I must note "things were more understandable" is an illusion. Ever since the iron age, very few people understood the art of ironmaking. People have been living in magic for a very long time.
- ClumsyPilot 5y ago
  You are totally missing the point - A medieval peasant did well when they had good harvest, and did poorly when they had famine, this was pretty straight forward. Now you suffer from subprime mortgage based securities and cryptocurrency miners and microchip shortage you can't get a car or some shit. Same house increases in price 10x over lifetime because of - well, explanation takes a book. Go look at water bottle, it's made of materials average person can't even pronounce, popupropeline, polycarbonate. You put it in recycling but it killed a poor turtle in Indonesia because global supply chains and corruption. Is this really comparable to, 'I need a new plought, and i dont know exactly all detail of how cousin jimmy does his hammering?'
  - hattmall 5y ago
    Just the amount of rules we have to be cognizant of for a seemingly mundane everyday life is pretty overwhelming. 10 kinds of insurance, 20 types of taxes, what thoughts and ideas you can express and to whom, what's good and bad for you to eat, investment guidelines, HOAs, correct pronouns, and so so much more especially now with covid. I think we feel like victims because modern life is basically walking along a tight thread of avoiding becoming a victim. The reality of that is if we live in a space surrounded on all sides by prisons heuristically it's not that much different than actually being in one.

starkd 5y ago

This victimization is hardly exclusive to the right. You can make a good case it began on the left and is merely being mirrored in some quarters on the right. Probably because of the success it has brougth to trial lawyers as we've become an increasingly litigious society.

michaelmrose 5y ago

bendbro 5y ago
naasking 5y ago
In 2016 plenty of people were calling Trump an illegitimate President, and before that Republicans were questioning Obama's legitimacy due to his birth certificate, and before that Gore and Bush had the Supreme Court settle their contested election, and before that was Clinton's impeachment any less partisan? You act as if this is some new phenomenon, but it's just the latest data point in a dangerous game played by both sides. Trump doesn't deserve this much paranoia. He's an incompetent buffoon that anyone could easily beat if the existing parties weren't so focused on playing their petty games at the expense of the people. So who's fault is it really if he wins?
- 0134340 5y ago
  >You act as if this is some new phenomenon It's not new. What's new is having your tribe so convinced that an election was stolen and them so unquestioning that they storm and loot the capitol while being armed.
  - hattmall 5y ago
    Or you know having your tribe so convinced that they impeach the sitting president twice. People were calling for impeachment since day one. And in 2020 there isn't zero reason to think the election was stolen. There is overwhelming evidence that the amount of likely fraudulent ballots cast exceeds the margin of victory in several states.
    - NikolaeVarius 5y ago
      Present it

jrm4 5y ago

I don't think you're saying anything that can't adequately be explained by "more people on social media," and mainstream media more or less using that to stay relevant. As opposed to some sort of "new" brand of victimization or something. People are telling their own stories in an effort to be seen and to change how we do things. Compare and contrast with the much narrower mix of "public speaking" which was more driven by classic (yes, mostly white) American Boomer-esque capitalism of before. Seems pretty natural and expected so far, actually.