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(Article was behind a paywall) As a European, I have to ask, how can a university qualify the students without having any standardised test? At every level of

(Article was behind a paywall) As a European, I have to ask, how can a university qualify the students without having any standardised test? At every level of my education I had country-level-standardised test. It was always the most important factor in getting in. It also had an effect of allowing students from very remote, small towns to study in the capital, because of their top scores.

NoImmatureAdHom 5y ago
They can't, obviously. What they're doing is making it very difficult to blame them for doing whatever they want to do.
fma 5y ago
As an American - it is an interesting question. I'm no history buff by any means....but one of the strengths of the United States is that the federal government is supposed to have limited powers. It's also a weakness (IMHO) and being able to 'universally qualify' students is one of them. Education standards & curriculum is controlled at the state. How can you compare two students between 2 different states, when even the GPA levels can be different despite have the same grades? I have family in China...and in China there are national tests to be able to compare students. If we start doing a national tests you'll have people start yelling "States rights!". We can't even have states accept free money to give their people insurance. I don't think all states would accept a national test.
jacobr1 5y ago
The problem is the reality that outcomes on standardized tests show very different distributions for different racial categories [1]. If you focus on the tests, you will get strongly undesired outcomes. So the admission process needs to find other methods to identify candidates that are both academically likely to succeed and roughly match the racial distributions of entire population. On a societal level, in my opinion, the right thing to do would be to address the causes of why certain groups have very low scores, ideally in a non-racial way, such a universal pre-K or more funding for math education and lower-performing schools or whatever. But universities have decided that more subjective evaluations are the way forward for their short term needs. [1] https://www.brookings.edu/research/race-gaps-in-sat-scores-highlight-inequality-and-hinder-upward-mobility/ https://www.brookings.edu/research/race-gaps-in-sat-scores-h...
- annexrichmond 5y ago
  Genuine question because you state this as fact: why does it need to match the racial distribution of the entire population? To me it’s a little presumptuous that there’s an equal demand across racial categories. I’m not saying there shouldn’t be but acting as if that’s the case won’t have achieve the results you want.
  - jacobr1 5y ago
    I agree, the argument always seem to be some kind of inductive reasoning stemming from the presumption that unequal representation is not only a bad thing, but causally due to either past or present racist actions. This seems very facile to me, even though there undoubtedly is overlap with the truth. But as to my own view, I remain a meritocrat, despite the the tide that seems to turning against such thinking.
- _-david-_ 5y ago
  >The problem is the reality that outcomes on standardized tests show very different distributions for different racial categories Perhaps some races generally study more, learned more in school or are just smarter? There was discriminatory immigration rules that causes smarter Asians to be allowed in at higher rates than less intelligent Asians. Hispanics and blacks did not have those rules for various reasons for example. >If you focus on the tests, you will get strongly undesired outcomes. Only if you believe there should be an equal result based on race regardless of scores.
throw_m239339 5y ago
As a European, you need to know that US universities ask you to state your "race" on the application form. In most Europe of course, it would be straight out illegal as to my knowledge no country in the EU can legally do racial discrimination. There is no such thing as "positive racial discrimination", it's racist no matter what the intent is. Basically in USA "people of color" is a euphemism for "poor people", but acknowledging the existence of an economic underclass doesn't jive well in an ultra capitalistic society. So identity politics and race dynamics serve as a cover for all that. People pushing all that madness aren't trying to change the system, but sustain it.

NoImmatureAdHom 5y ago

They can't, obviously. What they're doing is making it very difficult to blame them for doing whatever they want to do.

fma 5y ago

As an American - it is an interesting question. I'm no history buff by any means....but one of the strengths of the United States is that the federal government is supposed to have limited powers. It's also a weakness (IMHO) and being able to 'universally qualify' students is one of them. Education standards & curriculum is controlled at the state. How can you compare two students between 2 different states, when even the GPA levels can be different despite have the same grades? I have family in China...and in China there are national tests to be able to compare students. If we start doing a national tests you'll have people start yelling "States rights!". We can't even have states accept free money to give their people insurance. I don't think all states would accept a national test.

jacobr1 5y ago

The problem is the reality that outcomes on standardized tests show very different distributions for different racial categories [1]. If you focus on the tests, you will get strongly undesired outcomes. So the admission process needs to find other methods to identify candidates that are both academically likely to succeed and roughly match the racial distributions of entire population. On a societal level, in my opinion, the right thing to do would be to address the causes of why certain groups have very low scores, ideally in a non-racial way, such a universal pre-K or more funding for math education and lower-performing schools or whatever. But universities have decided that more subjective evaluations are the way forward for their short term needs. [1] https://www.brookings.edu/research/race-gaps-in-sat-scores-highlight-inequality-and-hinder-upward-mobility/ https://www.brookings.edu/research/race-gaps-in-sat-scores-h...

annexrichmond 5y ago
Genuine question because you state this as fact: why does it need to match the racial distribution of the entire population? To me it’s a little presumptuous that there’s an equal demand across racial categories. I’m not saying there shouldn’t be but acting as if that’s the case won’t have achieve the results you want.
- jacobr1 5y ago
  I agree, the argument always seem to be some kind of inductive reasoning stemming from the presumption that unequal representation is not only a bad thing, but causally due to either past or present racist actions. This seems very facile to me, even though there undoubtedly is overlap with the truth. But as to my own view, I remain a meritocrat, despite the the tide that seems to turning against such thinking.
_-david-_ 5y ago
>The problem is the reality that outcomes on standardized tests show very different distributions for different racial categories Perhaps some races generally study more, learned more in school or are just smarter? There was discriminatory immigration rules that causes smarter Asians to be allowed in at higher rates than less intelligent Asians. Hispanics and blacks did not have those rules for various reasons for example. >If you focus on the tests, you will get strongly undesired outcomes. Only if you believe there should be an equal result based on race regardless of scores.

throw_m239339 5y ago

As a European, you need to know that US universities ask you to state your "race" on the application form. In most Europe of course, it would be straight out illegal as to my knowledge no country in the EU can legally do racial discrimination. There is no such thing as "positive racial discrimination", it's racist no matter what the intent is. Basically in USA "people of color" is a euphemism for "poor people", but acknowledging the existence of an economic underclass doesn't jive well in an ultra capitalistic society. So identity politics and race dynamics serve as a cover for all that. People pushing all that madness aren't trying to change the system, but sustain it.