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I think this is indicative of the slow break down of civil society. To some extent you can "throw more cops" at the problem, but at some point, you have to rea

by mc32 5y ago

I think this is indicative of the slow break down of civil society. To some extent you can "throw more cops" at the problem, but at some point, you have to realize that it's the people, the society and what they put up with. Be it at home, in school, in pop culture, etc. Accepting petty crime as part of every day life eventually erodes enough civility that at some point the criminals realize they have overwhelmed the system. People are afraid to speak up when Johnny does something inappropriate. "How dare you scold my kid". There is no longer much social pressure to conform. It has good aspects (people can now do activities that harm no one else and no one will bat an eye, but also this same sword allows opportunists to take advantage of the situation. It's a multi decade phenomenon. At some point, people will get fed up and the stars will align and the pendulum will swing the other way (Wild West initially vs Statehood later on)

afsafsaf 5y ago
I don't think SF's situation is indicative of civil society. This is very specific to crime issues of the Bay. There are places in the world where I could leave my wallet at a restaurant, walk away to go to the bathroom and it would be waiting for me when I was back.
- dmd 5y ago
  Even here in Boston I would be pretty surprised if I did that and my wallet were stolen anywhere but the most high-throughput of places like a highway rest stop. A restaurant? I'd be shocked. The world is a lot less dangerous than I think a lot of people believe.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- adamrezich 5y ago
  this kind of overall breakdown is happening in places that aren't just SF though. I moved away from my hometown in South Dakota, moved back a few years later, and was shocked to see how much more common theft is at stores, how most gas stations near major roads now have hired security at night, and so forth. local law enforcement is constantly putting out PSAs telling people to not leave firearms in their unlocked vehicles at night as they're being stolen and used in crime.
  - nradov 5y ago
    What's the rate of opioid and amphetamine abuse there?
    - adamrezich 5y ago
      exactly, that has been a major contributor of the problem in the timespan I'm talking about (decade or so).
- mads 5y ago
  I once left my wallet in a bar in China. I came back for it a few hours later and it was still there. Also left my bag with my laptop in a bar in Denmark once and it was there the day after, when I came back looking for it.
- dkdk8283 5y ago
  SF is signaling it’s ok to be a criminal, because maybe someone was poor and doesn’t know better? even if it’s true there will be people to take advantage of it. the sf bay created its own toxic political environment and they’re paying the price.
nradov 5y ago
The next step is a backlash where police officers (and private security guards) start meting out rough justice by beating and shooting suspects in the street rather than bothering to arrest them. Sure there have been isolated cases of that before but it's not a systemic nationwide problem. We risk turning into another Brazil. Not a good situation.
nathanvanfleet 5y ago
I don't really think it's "culture." I think that culture and the environment you grow up in can make you think something is a good idea or even "cool." People might not feel like there is a better option. But I think ultimately the issue is that there really isn't much of a better option. De-unionization and wage stagnation has made it basically impossible to live with any dignity on a multiple tiers of jobs. Maybe the culture that certain classes of people don't deserve a living wage is contributing to this?
- mc32 5y ago
  There is some of that: multi-decade hollowing out of the working class. Undermine their ability to negotiate wages by off-shoring their labor (manufacturing --white goods, for example) or importing cheap labor (services --meat processors, for example). On the other hand, we had the 'Hoover' years and shanty towns and people out of jobs and people begging for scraps during the dustbowl and depression years but we still had the glue of civil society to hold us together. But now, the working man and working woman can't earn an honest day's wages and we've moved to a more laissez faire attitude to what happens on the street (It's okay to shit on the sidewalk, inject, threaten pedestrians, etc.) In the extreme, it's considered 'establishment' to want civility --but even mayor Breed is fed up with the BS from the BoS and their promoters.
dragonwriter 5y ago
> I think this is indicative of the slow break down of civil society. If by “this” you mean people treating the current incarnation of Newsweek as if it were a serious media outlet and not an online supermarket tabloids wearing the skin of a dead journalistic enterprise as a disguise, then, sure.
lupire 5y ago
You are ignoring the breakdown of the global economic system* that leaves millions without better prospects than prowling the streets. *Well, the breakdown of the US domination of the global economiv system. I also question why 90% of the parked cars in SF are there in the first place. It's a city, not a suburb. The presence of cars is a vandalism against public space and safety (and usually public air quality).

by mc32 5y ago

afsafsaf 5y ago

I don't think SF's situation is indicative of civil society. This is very specific to crime issues of the Bay. There are places in the world where I could leave my wallet at a restaurant, walk away to go to the bathroom and it would be waiting for me when I was back.

dmd 5y ago
Even here in Boston I would be pretty surprised if I did that and my wallet were stolen anywhere but the most high-throughput of places like a highway rest stop. A restaurant? I'd be shocked. The world is a lot less dangerous than I think a lot of people believe.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
adamrezich 5y ago
this kind of overall breakdown is happening in places that aren't just SF though. I moved away from my hometown in South Dakota, moved back a few years later, and was shocked to see how much more common theft is at stores, how most gas stations near major roads now have hired security at night, and so forth. local law enforcement is constantly putting out PSAs telling people to not leave firearms in their unlocked vehicles at night as they're being stolen and used in crime.
- nradov 5y ago
  What's the rate of opioid and amphetamine abuse there?
  - adamrezich 5y ago
    exactly, that has been a major contributor of the problem in the timespan I'm talking about (decade or so).
mads 5y ago
I once left my wallet in a bar in China. I came back for it a few hours later and it was still there. Also left my bag with my laptop in a bar in Denmark once and it was there the day after, when I came back looking for it.
dkdk8283 5y ago
SF is signaling it’s ok to be a criminal, because maybe someone was poor and doesn’t know better? even if it’s true there will be people to take advantage of it. the sf bay created its own toxic political environment and they’re paying the price.

nradov 5y ago

The next step is a backlash where police officers (and private security guards) start meting out rough justice by beating and shooting suspects in the street rather than bothering to arrest them. Sure there have been isolated cases of that before but it's not a systemic nationwide problem. We risk turning into another Brazil. Not a good situation.

nathanvanfleet 5y ago

I don't really think it's "culture." I think that culture and the environment you grow up in can make you think something is a good idea or even "cool." People might not feel like there is a better option. But I think ultimately the issue is that there really isn't much of a better option. De-unionization and wage stagnation has made it basically impossible to live with any dignity on a multiple tiers of jobs. Maybe the culture that certain classes of people don't deserve a living wage is contributing to this?

mc32 5y ago
There is some of that: multi-decade hollowing out of the working class. Undermine their ability to negotiate wages by off-shoring their labor (manufacturing --white goods, for example) or importing cheap labor (services --meat processors, for example). On the other hand, we had the 'Hoover' years and shanty towns and people out of jobs and people begging for scraps during the dustbowl and depression years but we still had the glue of civil society to hold us together. But now, the working man and working woman can't earn an honest day's wages and we've moved to a more laissez faire attitude to what happens on the street (It's okay to shit on the sidewalk, inject, threaten pedestrians, etc.) In the extreme, it's considered 'establishment' to want civility --but even mayor Breed is fed up with the BS from the BoS and their promoters.

dragonwriter 5y ago

> I think this is indicative of the slow break down of civil society. If by “this” you mean people treating the current incarnation of Newsweek as if it were a serious media outlet and not an online supermarket tabloids wearing the skin of a dead journalistic enterprise as a disguise, then, sure.

lupire 5y ago

You are ignoring the breakdown of the global economic system* that leaves millions without better prospects than prowling the streets. *Well, the breakdown of the US domination of the global economiv system. I also question why 90% of the parked cars in SF are there in the first place. It's a city, not a suburb. The presence of cars is a vandalism against public space and safety (and usually public air quality).