27 ms·

Kinesis Advantage 360

• Gatsky 5y ago
  A major issue I have with these ergo keyboards is the impossibility of trying them before buying them. Any solutions for this? I guess it is pay to play or stick with normal layouts.
  • bxji 5y ago
    Kinesis has a 60-day money back guarantee if you buy from them, minus the cost of shipping. These are also sold on Amazon, which has a really good return policy so you can return the item with no hassle if you don’t end up liking it. Of course, this is all presuming that A. You have enough capital to buy the keyboard and are ok with not having $300+ for a month or two B. you can get used to the keyboard within a 30 day period and get a feel for how you’d like to use it full time
    • LinearEntropy 5y ago
      Unfortunately their store was closed thoughout most of 2021 due to COVID. I orded a Advantage 2 from the sole NZ distributor who do not honour that deal. Cost 500USD only to discover it was very uncomfortable for an "ergonomic" keyboard. I dont think my shoulders are particularly far apart but I still had massive pain due to the ulnar deviation caused by the keywells not sitting at an angle that suited by shoulders. Another few hundred dollars in mods to get QMK and lower thumb keys and while some other issues were resolved, I cannot type on it for more than a minute without intense pain in my left wrist.
      • Gatsky 5y ago
        Yes, this is what I’m worried about (from Australia).
• Ninjinka 5y ago
  I picked up a Kinesis Advantage on Craigslist for $100 a year ago and that's easily been the best $100 I've spent. I've found myself wishing I could travel with it, but it's so huge that's really not feasible. This new design makes that look more possible, and the bluetooth option is a huge plus. So I'll definitely be purchasing.
• tbenst 5y ago
  Love my Advantage2, and only complaint is the USB cable has insufficient strain relief, and I've already replaced two cables, almost once a year. So bluetooth is a welcome sight. Am I the only one that prefers the monolith body? I typically rest my keyboard on my knees when typing, which is difficult for a split layout
• astangl 5y ago
  I checked with Kinesis sales, and they said they’ll be offering the PBT dyesub keycaps, for those of us who’d like to buy them for our old Advantage2 keyboards. No word yet on when they’ll be available though.
• ianai 5y ago
  What are the odds the pre-orders will be robbed by bots in a few seconds?
  • jagger27 5y ago
    That seems unlikely, and it's not really how Drop usually works. They collect pre-order payments before manufacturing. This is probably an unlimited group buy. Pre-oders on Drop.com usually stay open for a month or longer.
    • ianai 5y ago
      Oh, awesome, that's a relief! The bluetooth version does seem pretty couch surf friendly...maybe I'll get one.
    • gorbachev 5y ago
      There are only 360 units on sale, total.
      • jagger27 5y ago
        Oh, that's a bummer.
• pen2l 5y ago
  Oh, finally a big keyboard manufacturer has the cojones to move Capslock away from prime keyboard space. I have Advantage keyboard and usually wrote off physically separated keyboards, but thinking more about it now, I do wish my Advantage's two splits were angled a liiiittle more. So, I'll probably get this 360. I do hope however that us_intl layout becomes more widespread and the AltGr modifier key is universally present in US keyboards without having to set it up.
  • stavros 5y ago
    > cajones I don't think a lack of drawers was the problem!
• oftenwrong 5y ago
  I've felt for a long time that this would be an obvious move. I know that many people, myself included, like the Kinesis Advantage design, but wanted a split design like the Freestyle. I've even seen DIY versions.
• VectorLock 5y ago
  I've been waiting a long time for this and getting hyped at their Twitter drip feed but damn preorders open December 20th for potential delivery in MAY.
  • Smoofer 5y ago
    Yeah, I was very close to buying an Advantage 2 in the last week. Saw this, got super excited, then realized it wouldn’t be in my hands for another 5 months
    • tcoff91 5y ago
      I own an advantage 2 and I will be smashing that pre-order button. I love my advantage2 so much, and this new 360 looks even better!
• jerlam 5y ago
  I like how they added inboard macro keys. It was odd before how the Advantage had all this programming capability but you had to come up with some new keystrokes. Is it me or the price difference between the two makes the Pro model a no-brainer? Wireless, backlighting, better keycaps, and better programming model for only $40 more?
  • ianai 5y ago
    Not everybody wants a wireless keyboard. The least desirable thing, to me, is probably the backlight. It's clearly toggle-able though, so should be fine.
    • toyg 5y ago
      And if it's like my Freestyle Edge, at some point the backlight will just stop working every time you reboot, anyway... (I love my Edge, but this particularly bug annoys me)
  • FullyFunctional 5y ago
    You find ABS (soft and light plastic that wears down with even moderate usage) to be superior to PBT which is heavier and FAR more durable?
    • jerlam 5y ago
      I'll be the first to admit I know nothing about keycaps, it always seemed like worrying about the paint on a car and ignoring the engine. I'm guessing they had to use the worse keycaps on the "Pro" for backlighting?
      • deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
      • FullyFunctional 5y ago
        Trust me, you can immediately feel the difference and you can see the difference after at most a year. As someone who types 12+ hours every day, yeah, I care. Car paint protects the body, but is otherwise almost exclusively cosmetic. Keycaps however is what you touch. You don't touch a keyboard (in a meaningful way), so I think your analogy is flawed.
• tifadg1 5y ago
  So this looks like an updated kinesis advantage 2 - added bluetooth, more ergonomy options. Kinesis advantage 2 helped me deal with carpal tunnel syndrome and forced to learn 10 finger typing, among other things. As someone interacting with the pc for 8+ hours, this is easily the most impactful 450 Eur I've ever spent.
• bayofpigs 5y ago
  Been using the Advantage for decades. Splitting the two sides is a terrific idea. Always wanted to mount a split keyboard to the sides of a zero-gravity chair so will try it out with this. Two features I wished they would offer: 1. A nub-mouse like the Thinkpad 2. A touchpad in the center of the keyboard (not needed for the split)
  • ianai 5y ago
    Yes, I've even given them feedback asking for a nib or something somewhere. I used velcro to attach a trackpad to the middle of one of my Advantage2 keyboards and it helps. (If I had my personal choice, it'd probably be a trackball instead of a nib.) Their keyboards are absolutely fantastic!
• ioman 5y ago
  I have been waiting for this keyboard for 20 years
• tinbucket 5y ago
  I wonder why they’re using Gateron switches rather than Cherry ones? Is it just about cutting costs, or is there a solid technical reason for using clones rather than the originals?
  • nvarsj 5y ago
    Demand most likely. Lots of people think the clones like gateron are superior to cherries.
  • Sholmesy 5y ago
    Gateron are in no way inferior to Cherry. They struggle with the knock-off branding but have made some pretty popular switches in the past 5 years.
    • eggy 5y ago
      I love Gateron Oranges. I've had both Cherry Browns and the Gateron Browns, and I actually prefer the Gaterons. I couldn't give you a quantitative answer, but I swapped them into the same hot-swappable keyboard and I liked the Gaterons. I found the Orange Gaterons, and I am sticking with them.
• zeeb 5y ago
  Very similar vibes to the dactyl, if you're feeling handy and interested in a little DIY... https://github.com/adereth/dactyl-keyboard https://github.com/adereth/dactyl-keyboard
  • wellthisisgreat 5y ago
    Dactyl is quite a high bar for "a little DIY" ;)
    • tehnub 5y ago
      There are a good number of people who sell pre-builts for reasonable prices (e.g. https://bastardkb.com/ https://bastardkb.com/), but these are often one-person endeavors, and with part shortages, they've been out of stock a lot recently.
  • jagger27 5y ago
    The Dactyl gives Kinesis vibes, you mean! :^) Kinesis has been around since the early 90s making keyboards like this.
    • new_realist 5y ago
      And barely innovating.
    • funnybeam 5y ago
      Maltron was first, 1976 https://www.maltron.com/ https://www.maltron.com/
• muditmudit 5y ago
  Is it just me, or does it look like another ergodox clone/fork? I mean, I'm happy. I hope this would make the split layout even more common place.
  • jerlam 5y ago
    The Kinesis "contoured" design with thumb clusters is almost 30 years old, and itself was a clone of the Maltron design - so I think it's accurate to describe the Ergodox as a clone of the Kinesis.
    • spiderice 5y ago
      > so I think it's accurate to describe the Ergodox as a clone of the Kinesis. Seems to me like the Ergo almost exactly cloned the thumb cluster, and the Kinesis 360 almost exactly cloned the Ergo split design. They are clearly both drawing inspiration from each other, and there isn't one "clone"
      • FullyFunctional 5y ago
        Making a split version is kind of an obvious option and Ergodox was _far_ from the first fully split keyboard. Two people can both have the same idea (which is why patents are patently unfair).
    • muditmudit 5y ago
      Ha, I didn't know that. Thanks. Learned something new today.
• frou_dh 5y ago
  Split with major tenting is cool: https://kinesis-ergo.com/wp-content/uploads/Adv360-Pro-Asymmetrical-Tenting-Header.jpg https://kinesis-ergo.com/wp-content/uploads/Adv360-Pro-Asymm... I've already settled on my "endgame" desktop keyboard in the Matias Ergo Pro though. Don't like layouts that stray too far from ANSI.
  • kareemm 5y ago
    The Ergo pro is an excellent keyboard. I’ve had two. Biggest problems are reliability - my first had a bunch of keys stop working in 9 months! They sent a replacement half for $99. That one stopped working 13 months later. I would google around and read some reviews on Amazon and Reddit before committing. Sadly these issues seem common. Their warranty support was… not good. Their COO didn’t really stand by their product. I know 4 other people who had similar experiences - they all love the keyboard but switched after it basically fell apart. I’d buy another in a heartbeat if I knew it would last well beyond the warranty like every single other keyboard I’ve ever had over 32 years of computer ownership.
    • frou_dh 5y ago
      That sucks. Before buying, I read a lot of reports of key-repeating issues, but hopefully that will never be an issue for me because 1) I buy the 'Low Force edition' which uses different switches to the normal one, and 2) I spoke to a distributor and they told me it was pretty easy to fix that particular issue by cleaning the mechanism. Though I do actually have some New-in-Box spares that I snagged for really cheap, as an insurance policy!
    • throw455654 5y ago
      I had a similar issue with my Kinesis Advantage 2. Phantom key presses after a few months. Makes me nervous to purchase one again.
• MrPowers 5y ago
  Kinesis Advantage 2 is great, but it's massive and hard to travel with. Looks like the 360 might be a bit easier to travel with. The Kinesis Advantage 2 fits a Magic Trackpad perfectly right in the middle of the keyboard. This lets you perform mouse actions with you right and left hands. Emacs keybindings never made sense to me till I tried them with the Kinesis. I feel like Emacs sucks on a standard Mac keyboard and is awesome with a Kinesis. See here for a blog post on the topic if you're interested in learning more: https://mungingdata.com/emacs/learning-emacs-keybindings-after-multiple-failed-attempts/ https://mungingdata.com/emacs/learning-emacs-keybindings-aft... It takes a while to get used to the keyboard layout, but only takes a week to get fully productive. You're eventually able to train your brain to operate fluently on Kinesis & Macbook key layouts without any extra thinking. It's a great investment if you're willing to put in a bit of effort.
  • Groxx 5y ago
    I just did this Magic Trackpad thing on mine, I really like it. It's in the perfect location. Split hands though? Bluetooth? This is an instant-buy for me.
    • ssvss 5y ago
      I had this setup for a while, but I had a habit of moving just the index finger, instead of the whole wrist. This caused some inflammation/swelling in the cartilage/muscle between the index and middle finger, so I had to abandon the setup.
  • tcoff91 5y ago
    I bet the kinesis foot pedals would take emacs to the next level too. I use spacemacs in evil mode so I never bothered having to learn all those key chording things for emacs.
    • karmajunkie 5y ago
      i have one, but honestly never could make myself get into using it. ymmv but i would not make a decision around the keyboard based on that
• CarVac 5y ago
  I cannot fathom why the Kinesis keyboards don't have thumb shift by default. At least it's customizable.
  • lowmagnet 5y ago
    Hm, Ergodox don't either, at least in the suggested default layout.
  • jasone 5y ago
    Thumb shift keys are definitely an (incremental) improvement over the traditional placement, but they require a yet bigger commitment to retraining from the standard keyboard layout. I've been using Kinesis keyboards for 25 years, and finally this year committed to moving the shifts to the thumbs. This was worthwhile for me, but I hesitate to recommend the, ahem, shift to others.
    • convolvatron 5y ago
      why not both? despite having it mapped there for 20+ years I still don't use the thumb-shift. but for some chords its really a lot nicer.
      • jasone 5y ago
        The shift keys take up precious thumb cluster space, and their standard location is also useful. IMO the "best of both worlds" option is just worse.
  • archarios 5y ago
    I think they want to keep it somewhat approachable..
  • ErikCorry 5y ago
    The most puzzling default is that the 'up' key is on the left and 'down' is on the right. This is the opposite of vi and ctrl-J ctrl-K for no reason that I can imagine. I always remap it.
• dave_sid 5y ago
  Kinesis Advantage keyboards saved my career. I had bad carpal tunnel syndrome. I tried evening out there. This is the only thing that remotely worked.
  • timbert 5y ago
    I'll second that. I've owned two of these keyboards (one for work, one for home) for 16 years and they are still going strong. Nothing else really worked for me. They've taken me through 3 employers now. It does take some getting used to, but once you've made the transition, you won't want to go back. You'll type faster, with almost no strain, and more accurately.
    • sleepybrett 5y ago
      I have four of them because I keep buying secondhand boards from people who can't adjust to them for cheap... I paid full price for my first but the other three all came in between $50-150. Though after I replace their controllers they cost a bit more :)
  • dwringer 5y ago
    I didn't suffer from carpal tunnel but I'd get a lot of tension in my back and shoulders leading to sharp pains and deep aches that would last for days. Started using an Advantage2 and trackball in my non-dominant hand at work and within a week the symptoms were gone (and have stayed gone for a few years). I still use a normal keyboard and mouse in my dominant hand at home but the time spent that way is much less.
  • saralily 5y ago
    Same. I would not be able to do the last 8 years of my life if it weren't for these keyboards.
• endisneigh 5y ago
  If you're seriously thinking about buying this go try the other Kinesis keyboards first. After you get in the ergonomic territory I find the comfort increases to be very marginal. IMHO assuming you have no ergonomic setup at all you're better off buying a Kinesis Freestyle, a used Steelcase/Herman Miller chair, and a VESA mount for your monitor/laptop to make it eye level - all of which can be had for the cost of the Pro version. That being said this looks like a very nice purchase for those who have the money to micro optimize.
  • linsomniac 5y ago
    FWIW: We had ergonomics consultants in 3-4 years ago and they recommended displays be lower because having them higher makes your eyes open wider and dry out more. If you have problems with dry eyes, maybe try lowering your display?
    • thebean11 5y ago
      That's super interesting I have never heard or thought of that. I wonder how that compares to tilting your head back slightly to get the same eye:monitor angle?
      • FullyFunctional 5y ago
        This is all getting into personal preference, but AFAIK, ergonomic standards do not exactly recommend eye level, they recommend that looking in a straight line you should see over top of edge of the monitor. There's definitely some tradeoffs to be had as having the monitor too low can put stress on your neck (which translates to neck pain after a while).
        • tehnub 5y ago
          That sounds reasonable. What I've seen from various websites, and enjoy from personal experience, is having the top of the monitor at, or slightly above, eye level.
        • 5y ago
• dsr_ 5y ago
  I don't understand the surrounding decisions. Differentiating by wired/wireless makes sense. Using two different programming systems? No. ZMK instead of adding BT support to QMK? Why? RGB underglow but not individually programmable key backlights? For the money they are charging, all of these things should have been extremely easy decisions. Anyone have insight?
  • Palomides 5y ago
    > ZMK instead of adding BT support to QMK? speculation, but I'm pretty confident: ZMK is MIT licensed and QMK is GPL
    • twalla 5y ago
      ZMK is built on top of Zephyr while QMK is built on top of ChibiOS - I'm not super familiar with the specifics but it's my understanding that the way ZMK/Zephyr handles bluetooth and matrix scanning is like an order of magnitude more energy efficient.
  • Sholmesy 5y ago
    The go to for the ErgoMechKeyboards realm seems to be to use ZMK for these sorts of things. Power consumption and customization of certain things is better supported. Individually programmable key backlights is nice, but imo a gimmick. That being said I never use backlights on a laptop keyboard, or mech keyboard, so I don't know what the use case for wanting ur Q to light up in a colour different to your W key would be. Also this board is not that expensive.
    • dsr_ 5y ago
      Underglow of any kind is a gimmick, but backlights, programmable or not, are useful in low-light situations, to let you see where that key that you rarely use actually is. You generally don't want Q to light up different from W, but you might want to have a low-level green glow by default and slightly brighter colors to distinguish keys around the periphery.
• inquist 5y ago
  FWIW I've been quite happy with the ZSA Moonlander https://www.zsa.io/moonlander https://www.zsa.io/moonlander
  • linsomniac 5y ago
    I was pretty hot on getting the Moonlander when it first came out, but I really wanted unlabeled keys. They now offer that, but I'm having a hard time committing to spending the money when I'm so happy with my ErgoDox Ez. Anyone made that switch that can compare/contrast?
    • nahtnam 5y ago
      I've had both. I find that the moonlander is a LOT smaller, and feels a bit better because the wrist-rests are integrated (that was probably my biggest annoyance with the EZ). I was able to sell my EZ for about 250, so the moonlander realistically cost me about 150. The moonlander is about 25% better than the EZ (note: there are a few keys missing) and overall I'm happy with my upgrade
    • warp 5y ago
      I have no experience with the ErgoDox, and loved the Moonlander when I first received it. Over time I've grown to dislike the thumb clusters, they're too far away when tented, making only the inner thumb button easily reachable. (I'm still using it every day for work, but want to try something else soon, probably a Kyria).
    • tylerscott 5y ago
      I also have both and prefer the Moonlander. I like the adjustable thumb keys, integrated wrist supports, and smaller size compared to the Ez. That said, the Ez is a GREAT keyboard.
    • jrockway 5y ago
      I've used both the Ergodox and Moonlander. In general, I think both keyboards have poor thumb clusters. The Moonlander has the big red buttons that you can't press while keeping your hands in normal typing position. The Ergodox has the 4 1U keys that are also hard to press. The Ergodox has 1.5U keys between the hands (like to the right of T,G,B, and to the left of Y,H,N), while the moonlander just has 1U keys next to T,G and Y,H. I found the 1.5U keys much easier to press than the 1U keys. (Try typing "RGB" on a QWERTY keyboard; it's really not that easy to make your pointer finger responsible for 12 equally-sized keys.) As a result, I moved backspace from the 1.5U key next to H,N to a thumb key. The thumb isn't as fast for rapid motions as the pointer finger is, so I notice backspace being a little more cumbersome than necessary. But, I don't really think about it anymore, so it's not a big deal. (I do see my usage of the 1U keys falling off, though. I used have _- and =+ on them, and I find myself going for shift-= instead of the dedicated + key. I think that's because my Ergodox didn't have a + key, that was backspace, and I never learned it.) Both the Ergodox EZ and Moonlander have godawful tenting. But the Moonlander lets you fix it because it has an array of threaded inserts on the back that you can screw a proper tent to. I use this thing https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:4769961 https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:4769961 and love it. Generally the Moonlander is quite appealing. I use it every day and it's great. (I did replace the switches with Zilents. I always use weird switches on my keyboards.) But I'm looking at the Advantage 360 and think they've done a really job, so it's definitely a third option to consider. Finally, I've experimented with other designs. I made a 107 key keyboard (I call it the Ergorocks 107) that is Ergodox-like, but has 3 1U switches for the thumb clusters, a number pad in the middle, and F keys above the number keys. I fucked up the angle of the thumb keys, and found the numpad in the middle hard to use. I made it take a standard keyset, though, so you don't have to hunt for "Ergo" keysets. You can use any normal keyset! If this is interesting to anyone, I might make a second iteration with the bugs fixed. (It's entirely 3D printed. Don't let people tell you 3D printed keyboards are bad, they're great. PLA is honestly a great keyboard material; very rigid and pretty quiet.)
• db65edfc7996 5y ago
  Sadly, no dedicated F-row. I would even settle for a subset of keys that aligned with the columns. I do not consider layers an adequate replacement. Happy to see they are moving away from their own software configuration. Not a fan of the software interface on the Freestyle Pro. More than once I have gotten myself into a loop where I am unsure which function mode is activated and how to switch back to what I want. I am still likely to get this once it is out, but still not the "end game" keyboard of my dreams.
  • ksml 5y ago
    Agreed. I think the lack of dedicated F-row is a dealbreaker for me, as I use the media control keys pretty often
  • thanhhaimai 5y ago
    I've been using the Kinesis Advantage (modded QMK) for 6+ years, and I was so excited to see the headline. Then I realized there is no Fn row. :( It seems like I should go stock some of the old version in case they decide to discontinue it and only offer non-Fn version later.
    • hitchhiker-nz 5y ago
      Perhaps you can check out this one with F keys and ZMK. https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/comments/rc2pxj/the_ergonomic_design_of_glove80/ https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/comments/rc2pxj/t...
  • donatj 5y ago
    For what it's worth I really hate the dinky little F keys on my Kinesis Advantage 2, they're hard to hit, awkwardly positioned and feel gross. F8 and F9 are entirely impossible to hit without moving your entire hand. I consider this an upgrade. I personally think layer beats any keys I can't hit without taking my hands off home row. That said my other main daily driver is an HHKB so I'm pretty used to switching layer for F keys.
    • 5y ago
• dmm 5y ago
  I recently replaced the controller on my advantage2 to support qmk[0]. Using multiple layers lets me avoid the tiny rubber f-keys and move the arrow keys to hjkl along with a few other tweaks. I wish kinsis would make qmk support a default option. Custom layouts and layers are just too useful for me to give up. [0] https://github.com/kinx-project/kint https://github.com/kinx-project/kint
  • foxfluff 5y ago
    Yea, I have an advantage pro but it's been collecting dust since I got a qmk keyboard. I'm not paying for proprietary firmware anymore, and since Kinesis' poor handling of their sticky modifier key bug (that existed and was well known for what, a decade or two?) I'm not keen on paying them anything at all anyway.
    • foxfluff 5y ago
      And in case anyone's wondering what I'm talking about, back when I was about to buy my Kinesis, just about every user report I could find online mentioned that sometimes the modifiers get stuck. I really hoped that was just a coincidence, but no, my new keyboard did the same thing, and when I asked other users I came across along the way, they all said it's a regular thing with the Kinesis Advantage. Some tried to get Kinesis to repair it but response ranged from not acknowledging the issue at all and playing oblivious, or blaming the computer, sometimes offering to replace a circuit board in the keyboard (this does not fix the problem). There's also this 2016 web.archive.org snapshot where Kinesis is blaming the computer for missing the upstroke (what a joke to anyone who has the slightest clue of how USB or the input stack in your favorite kernel works): https://web.archive.org/web/20160221095425/http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/support/technical-support/troubleshoooting-advantage/ https://web.archive.org/web/20160221095425/http://www.kinesi... The reality is that it's all in their firmware and looks like it took them nearly two decades to fix (if not more, I'm not sure exactly how far back the issue goes.. I think some people claim it was also happening with the old PS/2 model!) with the release of Advantage 2. More anecdotes here, it was discussed when the Advantage 2 released: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12237836 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12237836 Nice keyboard but it really left me with a "shitty company" taste. And yeah, shitty proprietary firmware.
• lowmagnet 5y ago
  I had an Ergo way back, and it was a decent keyboard until something failed on the bottom row. I've since moved on to building a Ergodox in 2014 that I've been daily using since. This model looks really slick, and adds a number of nice innovations to the form factor. I'd reconsider if my current keyboard wasn't so bullet-proof.
• huang47 5y ago
  love the split design but the new challenge will be where I can mount the magic trackpad LOL
• dogma1138 5y ago
  I would like to see them partner with Logitech and integrate Logitech’s wireless tech into this and get rid of the cables all together and have a much lower latency interface than BT.
• qq4 5y ago
  I was getting hand fatigue from my laptop keyboard and decided to look into split keyboards. I tried a variety of Kinesis keyboards but I didn't like the build quality or inconsistency in features between models. I ended up settling with the Mistel MD770 which is a compact split keyboard in a traditional QWERTY layout. I found that was all that was really needed. I still use my laptop a ton, but I switch it up just enough with the split one to keep fatigue at bay. This goes the same for using a trackball with my left hand and a mouse with my right. At the end of the day the solution for me is to move in different ways and to build strength to combat fatigue. The trouble to adapt to Dvorak or curved, exceptionally ergonomic layouts isn't worth it for me, nor is the cost.
  • deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  • h3mb3 5y ago
    I've been quite happy with MD770 as well! I wish a similiar 75% split board existed with an ortholinear layout though.
    • qq4 5y ago
      I do wish it was a little better in layout, but it's not too bad. I have been impressed with it so far for the price. My biggest gripe is I wish the effort for flashy RGB lights went into key lighting instead. I still hunt and peck sometimes at night.
• gbrown_ 5y ago
  It's a shame they couldn't get hot-swapable switches to work [1]. I have an ErgoDox with MX Browns which hasn't seen the light of day for a while. If I were to make a large outlay again on a keyboard I'd want to buy with the switches I now know I want or no switches and fit them myself. TBH I could take a soldering iron to my ErgoDox I just haven't had the motivation. As an aside I've always wondered why the Katana60 [2] didn't have much interest as it seemed like a reasonable regular to full ergo in-between and IMHO more comfortable than something like a Planck. Though whilst I have tried the Plank I've not actually tried the Katana60 IRL. Looking forward to keyboard meetups again the post COVID future. [1] https://twitter.com/kinesisergo/status/1470446358372896772 https://twitter.com/kinesisergo/status/1470446358372896772 [2] http://xahlee.info/kbd/katana60_keyboard.html http://xahlee.info/kbd/katana60_keyboard.html
  • simonsaysso 5y ago
    If you're looking for something small but more ergonomic than a Plank, take a look at the Atreus (either as a DIY or in a kit from Keyboario[1]). I also had issues with the Plank but the slight angle of the keys on the Atreus has been extremely comfortable for me. [1] https://shop.keyboard.io/products/keyboardio-atreus https://shop.keyboard.io/products/keyboardio-atreus
    • thebean11 5y ago
      Love the small size, but the layout is too different from a "regular" keyboard for me to consider it; the switching costs between it and my laptop would be too high. Placement of shift, super (I use caps lock as super), and tab being the biggest issues.
      • alostpuppy 5y ago
        I just bought two and use one on top of my laptop. Or perfect but it works out alright.
    • gbrown_ 5y ago
      Yeah I'm pretty familiar with most keyboard offerings. I'm just not keen on the Atreus' lack of a surrounding case/the key caps themselves being the edge. I know it's only an atheistic quibble but I guess I'm fussy like that.
• chrsig 5y ago
  I've been using a kenesis advantage for the last several years, and absolutely love it. And I'm incredibly excited about this, mostly Hits: - Split design - multiple bluetooth pairings/wireless connection Misses: - No function keys?
  • archarios 5y ago
    There's a function layer. So you can still hit the function keys, just have to hit another button first.
• FullyFunctional 5y ago
  Base version gets PBT keycaps (yesss!) and Pro gets ABS (buuuh) Sadly not a typo. Hopefully the PBT set is available separately or (pretty please) PMK will make a custom run of the Ice-Cap.
  • Sholmesy 5y ago
    Agreed, should just be an option in the cart. The PBT vs ABS conflict is the keyboard equivilant of Vim vs Emacs
    • underdogadmin 5y ago
      I was able to order the Pro with Dvorak PBT layout. I didn’t realize till after they’re not shine through even though the Pro has backlighting. lulz oh well
    • swinglock 5y ago
      No one that knows of PBT prefers ABS.
      • Sholmesy 5y ago
        GMK sets are all ABS. They have a different sound & feel, and the colorways achievable are more vibrant. There are reasons for ABS
  • powerset 5y ago
    The FAQ makes it sound like it's an option, at least I hope so. https://kinesis-ergo.com/keyboards/advantage360/#faqs https://kinesis-ergo.com/keyboards/advantage360/#faqs "Which keycaps should I get? This one is easy… Dye-Sublimation PBT: These are premium keycaps that are resistant to sheen and and fade. If you don’t plan to use the backlighting then this is the set you want. You have a choice of Dvorak or QWERTY legends. Shine-Through ABS: If you want to work in a low-light environment you’ll need to select these if you want to be able to read the key legends. This set is only available with QWERTY legends at this time."
• blt 5y ago
  Interested in this. I like my Ergodox EZ but I wish its maximum tenting was a little more. I also really want to try the nonflat key arrangement. However, labeled keys and unique key shapes seems like a weird combination. Especially with Enter and Space on the same side.
  • tomsmeding 5y ago
    Question about the EZ: I have one too, but a major problem I have with it is that even when not tented, it's a _significant_ distance above my desk. The EZ wrist rests don't work for me (my palms move when typing, and the silicone deters palm movement for me), but when the keyboard is tented I have a larger problem: where do I rest my arm? Do I just put my elbow on the table? That's a very small surface area to rest my full arm on. How do you deal with large amounts of tenting? EDIT: my current solution is two books, one under either arm...
• miguelmurca 5y ago
  > Use stronger thumbs rather than weaker pinkies to access For some reason that sentence is extremely funny to me
• tylermenezes 5y ago
  In addition to all the comments from Advantage fans here, I also wanted to add that Kinesis has been an awesome company. I tweeted about some mods I made to my Advantage keyboard a long time ago, and they invited me to their office and donated a bunch of keyboards to the nonprofit I work for, to give as prizes to students (even before they launched the gaming-focused brand).
  • alanbernstein 5y ago
    Would you care to share a link or describe your mods?
    • tylermenezes 5y ago
      I delete my really old tweets, but it was actually to make the Advantage Bluetooth-enabled! I added a Bluetooth keyboard converter, LiPo, and charge controller inside the case. Unfortunately the Sparkfun documentation for the charge controller implied that it would prevent undervolting which wasn't true, and the battery died. They fixed the documentation but wouldn't send me a replacement battery. I didn't have the money for a new one at the time and reverted it.
      • sleepybrett 5y ago
        Installed this in one of my advantage 2s about 9 months ago. Great mod. https://github.com/wizarddata/Blue-Wizard-Mod https://github.com/wizarddata/Blue-Wizard-Mod
  • mike_h 5y ago
    Every interaction I’ve had with them over 15 years has been above-and-beyond helpful. It’s been so nice to see the market catch on to them.
• jbellis 5y ago
  I've wanted a bluetooth Advantage for years, but going from the vestigal F keys to none at all is making this a tough decision.
• rangersanger 5y ago
  I picked up a Kinesis a few month ago and it's been a life changer. I've struggled with shoulder pain since as far back as I can remember. I'd done PT, dry needling, massage, etc etc. I'd even sprung for a personal ergonomic assessment. I'm a cyclist and and keyboard jockey, so most of my waking life is spent in positions that seemed to make it worse. At times it prevented me from sleeping, doing things I enjoyed, etc. I wear a 42 jacket, so I'm not crazy wide or anything. I'd never seen anything that suggested that split keyboards were a good solve for the shoulder pain but I'd reached that point of just throwing shit at a wall because it was that, or find a new career and hobbies. Moving my keyboard so my forearms can sit slightly wider than perpendicular to my chest has almost completely resolved the shoulder pain and the impact was almost immediate.
  • whalesalad 5y ago
    Just wanted to thank you for this comment. I have very broad shoulders but have been hacking on Apple keyboards for a few years now - the results are that I have essentially permanent internal rotation of my shoulders. This has led to not being able to breathe properly with my diaphragm, which causes all kinds of issues! I missed the pre-order, but I grabbed a Logitech ergo kb from the local Microcenter a few days ago and already the changes have been substantial! Of course I am also focusing consciously on the breath, using my diaphragm not my stomach or clavicles. Thanks again! I never considered it until I read your comment.
  • dwringer 5y ago
    This was exactly my experience as well.
  • deagle50 5y ago
    I've had shoulder pain for a couple of years now and I'm reading this right after I bought an old 500 on eBay for $100 two hours ago. I love my Niz topre clone but I need a healthier layout, and now I'm pretty stoked.
  • cma 5y ago
    Where are you positioning your mouse, even farther out, or in-between the split?
• deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
• alostpuppy 5y ago
  Does anyone know what the professional edition adds?
  • ndrake 5y ago
    Bluetooth, wireless linking between both halves, backlighting, ZMK firmware
  • darzu 5y ago
    bluetooth
• meremortals 5y ago
  Currently use the split Kinesis Freestyle2. On macOS, Karabiner's "Mouse Keys" mod allows me to control the cursor by holding the d key and using hjkl for left down up right It's relieved much of my wrist pain, and I always flirt with the idea of trying a full on Advantage
• Ciantic 5y ago
  I have Ergodox Ez, it looks like this one is slightly updated version. Pinky row is lowered (which I think is an advantage, I have wondered for a long time why the pinky row is too high in EZ.). It has Bluetooth which I would prefer. It has some ZMK firmware which I haven't studied, I have only used QMK, otherwise looks good.
  • alpaca128 5y ago
    The pinky columns could be lowered a lot more. After a bit of testing I moved them a full row height down on my keyboard as that seems to be the sweet spot for me. It's weird for a minute or two but feels natural quickly.
    • Ciantic 5y ago
      I tried that too, but couldn't stick to it, I don't remember why. Maybe I should try again.
• ninkendo 5y ago
  What does the keyboard layout look like? Every single picture of the keyboard on this site shows either a tiny section of the keyboard where you only see like 4 keys, or there's one picture that shows the whole thing, but it's super tiny and you can't read the keys. Does it have a decent mac layout? Is cmd+tab easy to type? Is copy/paste ergonomic? I have no idea because the pictures don't show it, and scrolling around on their site is awful (you can't quickly scan around because of the stupid animations taking 2 seconds for pictures to pop in even if you're quickly scrolling past.)
  • CardenB 5y ago
    I’m guessing this mimics the kinesis advantage 2, which is an already well known keyboard layout from the same company.
    • sleepybrett 5y ago
      Yes, except they have added a few keys to the new layout. A 'function' key in the bottom outside corners, and three keys on the inner edge of each hand that can be programmed to whatever. https://kinesis-ergo.com/keyboards/advantage360/#new-keys https://kinesis-ergo.com/keyboards/advantage360/#new-keys
  • alasdair_ 5y ago
    >Does it have a decent mac layout? So the Advantage comes with extra keycaps for mac that let you replace the windows keys with option keys, not sure if the 360 will have that. On the regular Advantage, the option keys are controlled by the thumb. You can, of course, remap anything you want to remap.
  • advrs 5y ago
    Second this - it is way too hard for me to see a full FOV and high-res look at the actual product!
  • andrei_says_ 5y ago
    I have the non-split curvy Kinesis and while it’s good for typing, it is unusable for photoshop or illustrator work. Some shortcuts no longer work for one-handed use.
• cmauniada 5y ago
  No function keys is a huge deal breaker for me, I don't have any problem sticking to my advantage2.
  • archarios 5y ago
    looks like there is a function layer. Layers are nice because they make it so you don't have to move your hands far from home row.
    • cmauniada 5y ago
      I've had such a bad experience with the macbook layering (touchbar too), I feel like it might be more hassle having to turn the layer on and then press the key. Whereas with a dedicated fn row, it would be a lot easier. I'm quite happy with my adv2, but I can't wait for the reviews.
      • archarios 5y ago
        if the layer button is easily accessible, it isn't so bad imo. I have a function layer available just by moving my thumbs one button "inward" from resting position and I love it. It seems I like layers more than a lot of people though so *shrug.
        • cmauniada 5y ago
          I thought about this a bit more, and I'll give it a shot. I might see if I can contol my mouse using a layer (saw a person on youtube do something similar, but I forgot which video it was :/). That would actually force me to use the layers and see how it feels like in my daily workflow.
• regus 5y ago
  Wow I’m excited to try this! I use a kinesis split keyboard. I like it but it is a bit bulky and has a bunch of keys I never use. I love that it is split and tented, both of these aspects helped with my shoulder and arm pain. I tried to use the advantage 2 but because it was neither split nor tented it hurt my shoulder and arm so much that I couldn’t use. This seems like the best of both worlds. I was considering building a corne keyboard but now I can try this instead.
• bllguo 5y ago
  This looks cool, I'm glad split contoured boards are becoming more accessible. Shame about the switch options though. Also, plug for the yet unreleased Glove80 https://www.moergo.com/ https://www.moergo.com/, as someone who prefers low-profile switches.
  • roldie 5y ago
    Thanks for sharing, this looks like it's exactly what I've been looking for!
    • bllguo 5y ago
      absolutely! this is their first product so some caution is merited, and the polish most likely won't be on kinesis levels, but I really like what they've shown so far
  • DerSaidin 5y ago
    I'm curious to see what price that one will be.
  • hitchhiker-nz 5y ago
    There is a detailed Reddit post on the improved ergonomic design too https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/comments/rc2pxj/the_ergonomic_design_of_glove80/ https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/comments/rc2pxj/t...
• candyman 5y ago
  I was having some serious wrist and shoulder pain. Turns out it was related to my mouse which I kept to the right side of my keyboard. I moved it directly in front of the keyboard so it's in the middle and my pains disappeared. I may still take a look at this keyboard because the older you get the more you need. I've now been at the keyboard since 1979 and that's some wear and tear.
  • danr4 5y ago
    Try a trackball mouse. I sport a Logitech Ergo MX with a 30deg tilt. Similar to you it's in front of the keyboard. The fact you don't need the mouse to move at all is amazing.
    • itsjango 5y ago
      I used the same with a freestyle 2 and a Logitech on left when right gets tired. How do you position it in front of the keyboard? Seems weird
• jakub_g 5y ago
  Semi-related: I've had a basic ergo keyboard (MS sculpt ergonomic) for a while and it's much much better than regular keyboards; However I think all ergo keyboard companies are missing the point those days: "Just-a-keyboard" doesn't cut it anymore in the world of laptops. I want an ergonomic keyboard with a built-in Macbook-class touchpad, or ThinkPad-class trackpoint + three buttons. (I know it's tricky, especially with split keybord; conceptually it feels it almost can't be done). Unfortunately most of software those days has pretty limited functionality if you want to use it 100% with a keyboard only. And no matter what best keyboard you have, adding a trackpad or mouse to it is just clunky and slows you down due to endless context-switching. Are there any examples of ergo keyboard with built-in pointing device? I never found any.
  • foxfluff 5y ago
    How about a pointing device with a built-in keyboard? IMO it sucks but here you go: https://www.keymouse.com/ https://www.keymouse.com/ I'm adding analog thumbsticks (the style you'd find e.g. on a playstation controller) to my split keyboard. I expect them to suck too but maybe 0.5% less than the nipple on thinkpad keyboards. That one keeps tempting me because it's in a convenient positoin but it just drives me mad every time I try to get anything done with it.
  • toyg 5y ago
    The touchpad is an ergo-killer. It's just bad for your wrists to use it for any significant amount of time. It would be silly to include it in an ergo keyboard. The trackpoint is likely to be still covered by some IBM patents, and nobody uses it anyway. If you really want a trackpad, get an Apple one and drop it in the middle of your split keyboard. It will still be bad for your wrists though.
    • jakub_g 5y ago
      I do have external Apple touchpad but dropping it in front of the keyboard sucks hard. It is on lower level than keyboard and ergonomy is much worse than using it with Macbook laptop (I mostly use it for two/three finger swiping). Ideal touchpad would be non-flat and nicely integrated with the curve of ergo keyboard (I know, sounds difficult with split keyboard).
• brainlessdev 5y ago
  I wonder if an ISO version will become available (with a <> key next to the left shift key). It has never been the case for their other models :(
• alasdair_ 5y ago
  Holy shit finally! I have been using the Kinesys Advantage (and the LF version with Cherry MX Reds instead of Browns) for many many years. I love it but have always wanted a split version because my shoulders are too wide and I have to pull my arms in to type (like every other non-split keyboard out there). I spent a long time looking at building a custom 3d-printed keyboard of my own but trying to find just the right keycaps (they are not all the same size) that would work with the scooped layout was tough. I can't find it right now but there was at least one person who cut their Advantage in half and wired each side together with a long cable. It was cool that it worked, but it looked janky as hell and seemed like a good way to accidentally break a $350 keyboard. I'm so glad this is a thing!
• gigatexal 5y ago
  Trying to justify the price as I’m very keen to try the contoured keys. What’s the difference between the two models?
  • archarios 5y ago
    you could also build your own at much lower cost but much higher labor: https://github.com/abstracthat/dactyl-manuform https://github.com/abstracthat/dactyl-manuform https://www.etsy.com/market/dactyl_manuform https://www.etsy.com/market/dactyl_manuform
• uses 5y ago
  What did they end up doing with the escape key?
  • ErikCorry 5y ago
    I'm guessing it's one of the new ones in the center (between G and H). I only use escape in vim though, and there I mapped the jk key combination to escape instead. (:map! jk <esc>) I'm trying to stop using the physical escape key completely. If it's not where I expect it that will go faster. The function keys do almost nothing in Linux so I won't miss them. My main regret with my Advantage keyboard is that I should have bought it 20 years earlier. So I could totally see myself getting this. Even if I think 3.2 pounds is a little on the heavy side.
  • vl 5y ago
    It in the left column instead of CapsLock. There is layout photo in one of the FAQ answers.
• acjohnson55 5y ago
  Very cool. If this were out a year ago, I may have gone for it instead of my Moonlander. The curved keywells is big differentiator. It would have been hard to have committed to a switch style, though. It took me some trial and error to settle on my Zilents.
• porker 5y ago
  Has anyone seen a printable mockup for this keyboard layout yet? I've found (1) invaluable for ruling out which layouts are too large for my hands e.g. the Moonlander. This keyboard looks excellent - but I want to make sure I won't be overstretching if I get it. 1. https://jhelvy.shinyapps.io/splitkbcompare/ https://jhelvy.shinyapps.io/splitkbcompare/
• donatj 5y ago
  I don't mind the lack of function keys, I have a lot of 40-60% keyboards that lack function keys - but from the pictures, FN+6 is F7… Yikes. Off by one. Why. Every layered keyboard is FN+1-9 = F1-9 I'm sure you can reprogram it to correct this, but this is just silly.
• aredplug 5y ago
  To counter the stories of "an ergonomic keyboard" fixed my health issue... I had back pain for a few years. After physio and other improvements I tried an Ergodox and that didn't fix it.
• DerSaidin 5y ago
  https://twitter.com/kinesisergo/status/1471885389329666048 https://twitter.com/kinesisergo/status/1471885389329666048 > How many: 360 Good luck getting one in this first drop.
• new_realist 5y ago
  There's a renaissance in hobbyist ergo keyboards happening right now, and this is the best Kinesis could do?
• GiorgioG 5y ago
  I love my Kinesis Advantage. I go back and forth between it and my other non-ergo keyboards (at the moment it's a DasKeyboard). Somehow I managed to lose the CTRL keycap while the Kinesis was storage in my attic. I emailed Kinesis and got a response back within minutes - they're sending me a new keycap for the cost of shipping / handling ($7). Can't beat the responsiveness or the fact that they didn't ask me to buy an entire keyboard keycap set ($40-50). When my Advantage gives out, I'll likely get a 360. They are expensive, but they are built to last in my experience (I bought my first PS/2 Kinesis keyboard 20+ years ago when I did email tech support for Iomega (Zip drives - hundreds of emails a day), had it for 10 years, sold it for half of what I paid for it) and bought the USB version of the Advantage that I still use today.
• User23 5y ago
  If you hold up your empty hand you will find that your thumb can comfortably oppose any of your other four fingers in a pincer grip. This suggests that a board should have at least four keys that can be pressed with the thumb while the fingers type without any strain whatsoever. My ideal keyboard would be shaped to accommodate the neutral state of the hand. Hitting modifier and a key should feel as comfortable as a natural pincer grip. I certainly don’t want to use my weakest finger to hold a modifier key, even if it’s on the home row. I’d try to squeeze a fifth thumb key in if it could be ergonomic, so as to have control, meta, super, shift, and space all on the thumb. The Kinesis Advantage 2 comes closer than any other board I’ve used. I’m not entirely satisfied with the lack of adjustability of the thumb cluster though. Not everyone has the same size hands after all. It’s fairly comfortable at lap level though.
• abecedarius 5y ago
  > Weight: 3.2 pounds That seems like a lot. Any keyboard experts feel like explaining why a good keyboard is heavier than a laptop?
  • fomine3 5y ago
    Stability.
• almog 5y ago
  I've using a Kinesis Advantage for 10 years now. I got my Kinesis after switching to Dvorak, which maybe (maybe) improved my typing speed, but more importantly — I had to re-learn how to type, and get rid of all the quirks that come with learning how to type by yourself very early in one's life. That is to say, it made the transition to Kinesis Advantage a breeze. I cannot speak for how its ergonomic might or might not translate into helping with RSI, but having constant back/neck/other joints pains since I was 15, one change that I introduced to my (variable height) desk last year was, at least for me, more dramatic than any other: I installed a keyboard drawer, which enable me to align my Mirra's arm rest with the keyboard (my desk and most other variable height desks do not go low enough to allow that). The Advantage 360 could improve my setup as and I might get it just to be able to rest my arms at my shoulders natural width, which for me should be slightly wider than the regular Advantage.
• mlazos 5y ago
  This looks great! I’m happy with my ergodox ez, but now that kinesis has a split keyboard with qmk support it’s nice to see the competition in this space.
• kwertyoowiyop 5y ago
  I've always pressed 'b' with my RIGHT index finger. :-(
• greenimpala 5y ago
  oh wow.. had my advantage for 8 years and would never look back!
• stakkur 5y ago
  Aaaand despite costing a small fortune and being sturdy….it has to have a ‘Windows’ key. It baffles me how that persists.
  • jmiserez 5y ago
    With the Advantage 2 you got 4 extra keycaps in the box: 3 Mac keys and an additional Alt key to replace the Windows one. For the Advantage 360 they're saying 11 additional keycaps in the box. I'm sure one of those is a Windows key replacement.
    • stakkur 5y ago
      Thanks, didn't know that. But I wish there was a better option for the 'default' key than the Windows logo.
• sickcodebruh 5y ago
  Wow! This looks fantastic. I’m a big fan of this company and their products. My Advantage 2 just broke this week. I had a really great exchange with their support today, we went from initial contact to replacement part shipped VERY quickly over just a couple emails. I’m not particularly bothered by it breaking — I have a spare and I appreciate that they can just send me a new cable assembly and call it a day. If I was on the market for something portable, I’d pickup this new one in a heartbeat.
• toastal 5y ago
  Man, I wish they had differenter keyswitch options. I've used a bunch of Cherry MX styles in the past, but after switching to electrocapacitve Topre-clones, I don't want to go back.
• lgleason 5y ago
  I have been a Kinesis user for 8 years, starting with an Advantage USB, added a classic PS2(with a usb adapter) as a backup and then was a tester for the Advantage 2 which I ended up buying. A company I worked for gave me a choice for keyboards when I joined so I tried a Ergodox EZ with the RGB backlighting. General observations: 1. Overall I prefer the Advantage over the Ergodox. The big reason is the contoured design and the fact that the Ergodox tends to walk around unless you have a solid desk pad underneath it. Also, the Ergodox never felt as comfortable as the Advantage. Yes the Advantage is not as easy to travel with but still.... 2. I like the new design, but there are a few things that would have made the pro perfect. PBT backlit keycaps like they offer on the Ergodox-EZ and RGB backlighting...and maybe a set of f-keys (on the fence with the last one). One other thing... A mix of o-rings and QMX clips made a huge difference with the feel of the keyboard for me. I have been a cherry brown user from the beginning though and different people have different preferences with that. Kinesis is also really good about providing parts and service. I've had them send me replacement switches and have seen them offer up in-expensive replacement boards to repair and keep older models going. I'm going to buy one of these, but given that I already have 4 high quality mechanical keyboards and I have yet to have one die I am starting to feel guilty having all of these laying around. That said there is a side of me that is curious about the Keyboard.io :)
  • throw455654 5y ago
    I must have gotten a lemon because I got phantom key presses after a few months. I really want to try it again, but nervous if I’ll be unlucky with the same issues.
• ropeladder 5y ago
  I've started having problems with trigger finger (can't bend fingers in to make a fist) in both my right and left hands. Has anyone fixed this sort of problem with a new keyboard/mouse? I always hear about ergonomics in relation to carpal tunnel and wrist issues, but there is very little info (evidence or even advertising claims) about finger health.
  • bauta-steen 5y ago
    I've had trigger finger in my pinkies for maybe 10 years now. To my knowledge nothing except for maybe surgery will cure it. Excessive typing will unsurprisingly exacerbate it. I manage by remapping keys from the pinkies (emacs + ahk + Japanese keyboard with thumb keys), and using a keyboard with ultra light switches (Fujitsu libertouch with light membranes, plus cut slits in them to make them even lighter).
• throu2o34234 5y ago
  pity it doesn't have a trackball.
• jeffs4271 5y ago
  Nice. I've been a Kinesis user for 25 years. In the 90s I added the Silicon Graphics PS/2 driver to IRIX and I had a budget for testing. I had an RSI problems. I spent most of the budget on a a Kinesis and a data hand. It has been great for helping me manage my RSI issues. Still a process to manage it. I do have an ErgoDox to really try first. Know it is an adjustment. But it is hard not to try this...
  • pc86 5y ago
    The flatness of the ErgoDox gives me pause when compared to something like a Kinesis or a Dactyl. I think the Moonlander is gorgeous but similarly it seems like it's "a little" ergonomic but not quite at the Kinesis/Dactyl level. But I really think my next keyboard will be one of these split models, just not sure which one yet.
• doitLP 5y ago
  Maybe this was asked elsewhere but can anyone comment on what it’s like switching back and forth between keyboard layouts when you don’t have your Kinesis? Eg on phone or using someone else’s computer in a pinch.
  • Zezima 5y ago
    Effortless. Muscle memory is a wonderful thing. You don’t struggle to wear two different pairs of shoes or ride two bikes. With enough practice (three months for me) I can type easily on phone keyboards, kinesis/moonlander, and qwerty laptop keyboards. Do yourself a favor and take care of your hands. Split, ergonomic, welled, and ortholinear keyboards make a noticeable difference for finger fatigue, RSI, etc. my wrist tenderness is gone after using my kinesis for 3 years and has not returned after using the ZSA moonlander for 3 months.
    • mohaine 5y ago
      Agreed. After awhile you will always switch modes instantly as long as the keyboard is a different shape. Kinesis to std, no problem, don't even think about it. Kinesis to Model 1 not so much.
• hitchhiker-nz 5y ago
  Has anyone actually seen a photo of Advantage360 or did Kinesis just launched a preorder just with renders?
• injidup 5y ago
  I've had a kinesis advantage pro ( same as in article but single not split ) for some 15 years. It's awesome and my only complaint was that my hands were too close together. I think I might upgrade to this.
• konart 5y ago
  >3-Way Adjustable Tenting Looks too easy to break. Anyway - I've tried ErgoDox some years ago and realised it's two flaws: - too light - not enough buttons if you need to type in more than one language and your second language has more than 26 characters.
• 1MachineElf 5y ago
  This looks like a fun way to test ZMK. Most of the boards out there that support it are tiny and going or the same price, so why not get something bigger in a nice form factor?
• arvinsim 5y ago
  It's sad that ergonomic keyboards are relatively expensive compared to even other expensive mechanical keyboards.
• gentle 5y ago
  I love my Kinesis Advantage and I credit it with saving my elbows 15 years ago. These look great, but I'd definitely be worried about the little stands standing up to constant use.
• LinearEntropy 5y ago
  I must be the only person on HN that dislikes my Kinesis Advantage 2. I bought one in 2021 after the ZSA Moonlander didnt quite meet my expectations. While the keywell idea is amazing, i found that the two halves of the keyboard weren't angled towards each other enough and I still had very painful ulnar deviation. This wasn't helped by it being so far off the keyboard tray. I don't understand how someone can use the Advantage 2 without a standing desk. Even with a keyboard tray I am unable to sit my feet flat on the ground without my thighs and knees smashing into the tray the whole time. I ended up buying a custom board for it to run QMK, as well as replacement thumb cluster keys to try lower their height as they also caused pain. These both helped a bit but thanks to their store being closed due to Covid, I had to buy off a distributor in NZ that charged the equivelent of 500USD, before spending even more on the mods done. Unfortunately ive gone back to the Moonlander as I can at least angle the boards more after wasting around $1000 NZD. While this will solve the positioning of the keys, the height looks like it will still be an issue for me.
  • VectorLock 5y ago
    >While the keywell idea is amazing, i found that the two halves of the keyboard weren't angled towards each other enough and I still had very painful ulnar deviation. The big change with this one is it looks like tenting angle, cant and separation are completely configurable in this iteration, so if anything this one might help the issues you've had.
• nickm12 5y ago
  This is one of the most frustrating product pages I've ever seen. All I want to see is high resolution photos of the keyboard from the top and back. The top view image is 400x300 pixels. The design looks nice, but not having function keys is a major turn-off. This is a keyboard for professionals, it should have a full complement of keys. Edit: Found the large picture via url hacking! https://kinesis-ergo.com/wp-content/uploads/Adv360-Overhead_4-3.png https://kinesis-ergo.com/wp-content/uploads/Adv360-Overhead_...
  • hitchhiker-nz 5y ago
    They are not photos. They are just renders.
  • deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
• waynesonfire 5y ago
  if you're still young, learn dvorak as soon as possible and when you're wise, you won't be crippled like these folks praising this keyboard.
  • grumpyprole 5y ago
    I don't think there is universal agreement for Dvorak being more ergonomic than Qwerty. Qwerty was designed to make key presses with alternative hands statistically likely (to benefit mechanical type writers). But this is also a good ergonomic property. For example, common English works like "the" can be typed with one hand with Dvorak, but this is not necessarily ergonomic. It causes one to contort the hand more than if "the" is typed with alternative hands.
    • Symbiote 5y ago
      This is completely wrong; I think you must be thinking of something other than Dvorak. "The" requires both hands on Dvorak, and "th" is the easiest right-hand finger-roll¹, equivalent to "kj" on Qwerty. E is one of the strongest keys on the left hand. On Qwerty, this extremely common English word requires moving the fingers away from the home position, and the T (second most frequent English letter) is one of the longer stretches. Taking your most recent longer comment (Category Theory), typed on Qwerty there are 354 alternate-hand transitions. On Dvorak, there are 451. With the simplest fragment, "there are even books about it", and the left hand shown in capital letters: Qwerty: ThERE ARE EVEn BookS ABouT It. Dvorak: thErE ArE EvEn bOOKs AbOUt It. If you touch-type Qwerty, try typing "Kjdod aod d.dl nssv; ansfk gke". ¹ Like when drumming your fingers on the table.
      • waynesonfire 5y ago
        it's not just left vs right hand. i don't mind using both hands. there are positions on the keyboard that are easier to access than others. for example, home row keys are the easiest to press while keys near the edges of the keyboard above and below the pinky are more difficult. as a dvorak typist for 20 years, it seems to me that dvorak maps frequently pressed keys and combinations of keys in zones that are easier to access compared to qwerty. over my lifetime, i'm certain this has paid dividends. dvorak was optimized for comfort while qwerty was optimized for a mechanical device. dvorak is like shitting on a bidet and to me it's very strange that folks prefer to smear poop on themselves with paper.
• eckesicle 5y ago
  I've never used or tried any ergonomic keyboards. Last time I looked into it ~10 years ago I dismissed them since there didn't seem to be sufficient evidence to support the bold claims they made. What does it look like these days? Do these keyboard work? Is it worth switching from a traditional qwerty mechanical keyboard?
  • actually_a_dog 5y ago
    I can tell you for a fact that my Microsoft Ergo Sculpt instantly alleviated some wrist pain I was having that I thought might end up ending my career.
• dotancohen 5y ago
  No function keys! Why? This keyboard is obviously marketed at people who spend considerable time typing. When I'm in VIM I never use the Function keys, but every other serious productivity app - from Jetbrains IDEs to Microsoft Excel to Photoshop makes heavy use of them, often with modifiers. All of these cases now become triple- or quadruple- buckies on keyboards that require holding a layer key to access the Function keys.
• mulholio 5y ago
  Damn, this looks great. I'm very happy with my ErgoDoxes but the domed keys on this would make me seriously consider it if I were buying today. IMO, the split keyboard is super important for not messing up your shoulders with hunched over typing.
• brailsafe 5y ago
  It's great to see a ton of options for ergo mechanical keyboards out there now, but anyone have any suggestions for the best competitors/replacements for the Microsoft Sculpt? I used to think Mechanical key switches were the best, but in retrospect I must have been brainwashed by elitists. Full depth keys are irritating to use, and most switches are too loud. I love the ten-keyless, chiclet, reverse tilt style of the Sculpt, but I hear they break down quickly and aren't made anymore. I can't imagine myself using a full-depth keyboard again.
  • mahmoudhossam 5y ago
    There are low-profile mechanical ones, and with a red or a black type mechanical switch you won't feel much of a difference (but with better reliability).
• goodpoint 5y ago
  All this ergonomic keyboards are incredibly expensive. Is there anything reasonable below 50e? Even DIY.
• iLemming 5y ago
  Obligatory link: Gallery of split keyboards https://t.co/3hrNmk2PMX https://t.co/3hrNmk2PMX https://aposymbiont.github.io/split-keyboards/?s=09 https://aposymbiont.github.io/split-keyboards/?s=09
• dbenamy 5y ago
  Hah, https://dbenamy.blogspot.com/2010/01/most-expensive-keyboard.html https://dbenamy.blogspot.com/2010/01/most-expensive-keyboard... +1 on them being an awesome company!
• Tepix 5y ago
  Looks really great! How does it compare with the Keyboardio Model 01/100? I think i like the sculpted shape better on the Kinesis, otoh the keycaps on the Keyboardio seem nicer
• mbrodersen 5y ago
  Kinesis Advantage 2 saved my career as a developer. I have nothing but praise for the company and the products they make. I will definitely try out the 360.
• Tsiklon 5y ago
  It looks like the initial launch on Drop was a big success for the Kinesis team, the whole run sold out in under 30 minutes. I look forward to trying this out in summer 2022 when it becomes more readily available.
  • 6a74 5y ago
    Yes, but with a few small hiccups [1][2]. I was lucky enough to order one, two minutes before it was supposed to drop. [1] https://twitter.com/kinesisergo/status/1472969186561249281?s=20 https://twitter.com/kinesisergo/status/1472969186561249281?s... [2] https://www.reddit.com/r/kinesisadvantage/comments/rkoywv/how_to_preorder_kinesis_advantage_360_on_dropcom/ https://www.reddit.com/r/kinesisadvantage/comments/rkoywv/ho...