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Common misconception, but Software Engineer is actually a licensed profession in many states (with vague industry exemptions): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sof

Common misconception, but Software Engineer is actually a licensed profession in many states (with vague industry exemptions): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_engineering_professionalism#United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_engineering_professio... But virtually nobody does it. The NCEES even abandoned their Software Engineer licensing exam a few years ago because nobody was taking it.

anthk 5y ago
In Europe being an engineer has civil accountability on issues. You can be fined really high if you hire a self-called engineer without a proper degree. Or at least decades of alleged experience in the field.
- k12sosse 5y ago
  Especially without the accountability. Call yourself a software engineer? Did your code break? Is it vulnerable to exploits? What was the damage? Did you ship it knowing it was not fit for public usage? Congratulations! you're no longer allowed to program for a living and the state is suing you and your employer for damages.
  - saghm 5y ago
    I think part of the problem is that compared to more traditional forms of engineering, software engineering is still really young and not as rigorous. Right now, _nobody_ can write code without any bugs it in whatsoever. If we banned people who wrote buggy code, pretty soon we'd have no software engineers left. Regardless of whether you think that's a good idea, it seems pretty clear that at the very least there is a lot of demand for programmers, so it's unlikely the industry would get behind limiting that further in such a drastic way.
    - pjmlp 5y ago
      The issue is not banning, rather lack of liability. Even the cook at the bistro on the corner is liable if the food, cleaning or refrigeration isn't as it is supposed to be
    - criddell 5y ago
      > If we banned people who wrote buggy code That's not the standard for any kind of engineering. Professional Engineers make errors all the time. But they also design systems with fail safes, redundancies, safety factors, etc... You design systems with the expectation that failures will happen. Users will do stupid things. Highly improbably sequences will probably happen. Not all code needs to be designed so carefully. Nobody cares if Hacker News is offline for a few hours. But the software systems in self driving cars or running an MRI machine probably should be designed by licensed professionals who can stand up to their bosses and say "this can't ship until these improvements are made" because if it does ship, they can be personally sued for malpractice and lose their license.
- G3rn0ti 5y ago
  Well, yes, this applies to engineering. But not to software engineering. Personally, I like „software engineering“ as it is — being a free profession where talent counts more than a degree.
  - pjmlp 5y ago
    It surely does, e.g. in Portugal you can't even name a Software Engineering degree without approval from the Order. You are not required to do the exam, provided there is no civil liability or signing projects as the legally responsible Software/Informatics Engineering.
  - criddell 5y ago
    > talent counts more than a degree Are you saying for MD or PE that talent doesn't matter? Anybody can say they are a software engineer. The title means nothing.
    - ipaddr 5y ago
      Yes. A degree matters much more than talent. If you can get a degree you can practice. The most talented person in the world with no degree can't. Some people go to places where their low talent but high cash flow allows them to get a license.
      - criddell 5y ago
        Okay, so for an MD a degree is necessary that's true. But an MD with a degree and no talent probably won't be an MD for long. MD at least means something. "Software engineer" means nothing.
        ipaddr 5y ago
        Once you are an MD unless you challenge powerful forces in your association or hospital you are free to practice bad medicine as long as you can stay within some reasonable guidelines around billing and when to order tests. This gets exposed with surgery but is a lot easier with a GI doctor. They both mean something. You have to dive in to get the real scope regardless. If you just need a title for your commerical MD would carry more weight around diet products and a developer around a new software offering.
- wott 5y ago
  > In Europe being an engineer has civil accountability on issues. You can be fined really high if you hire a self-called engineer without a proper degree. One more case of mistakenly presenting 'Europe' as an homogenous entity, whereas it depends on countries like anywhere else. In France anyone can claim an engineer position, it is not licensed. You just cannot tell you hold an engineer degree if you haven't one; and that's pretty theoretical, because basically nobody uses the proper formal title (unlike for example in Germany where they always use the words Dipl. Ing.), so you can always fall back on claiming you are talking about the position and not the degree title.
criddell 5y ago
> Software Engineer is actually a licensed profession in many states Last time I looked, I couldn't find any. Some states tried for a while, but I think they all gave up.
hhh 5y ago
Lightly glancing it seems like there are hard requirements for a college education for some of these. That’s a hard-stop for many (including myself.)
- tata71 5y ago
  Even if you had a degree, working in this field should teach you it's not a requirement.
  - voakbasda 5y ago
    This does not deserve to be downvoted. A degree is secondary to actual talent. Too many students in my graduating class were undeserving of their degree, and plenty of folks can do the job without it.
- dnautics 5y ago
  yeah, that's fine. You should call yourself a software developer (or, as I call myself, a software plumber). An software engineer, minimally IMO, is someone who can 1) produce a software BOM, and 2) can craft an SLA. I can maybe do 1, and can't do 2. So, I don't call myself a software engineer.
88j88 5y ago
Looks like they stopped offering exam to license people: https://www.nspe.org/resources/pe-magazine/may-2018/ncees-ends-software-engineering-pe-exam https://www.nspe.org/resources/pe-magazine/may-2018/ncees-en...

anthk 5y ago

In Europe being an engineer has civil accountability on issues. You can be fined really high if you hire a self-called engineer without a proper degree. Or at least decades of alleged experience in the field.

k12sosse 5y ago
Especially without the accountability. Call yourself a software engineer? Did your code break? Is it vulnerable to exploits? What was the damage? Did you ship it knowing it was not fit for public usage? Congratulations! you're no longer allowed to program for a living and the state is suing you and your employer for damages.
- saghm 5y ago
  I think part of the problem is that compared to more traditional forms of engineering, software engineering is still really young and not as rigorous. Right now, _nobody_ can write code without any bugs it in whatsoever. If we banned people who wrote buggy code, pretty soon we'd have no software engineers left. Regardless of whether you think that's a good idea, it seems pretty clear that at the very least there is a lot of demand for programmers, so it's unlikely the industry would get behind limiting that further in such a drastic way.
  - pjmlp 5y ago
    The issue is not banning, rather lack of liability. Even the cook at the bistro on the corner is liable if the food, cleaning or refrigeration isn't as it is supposed to be
  - criddell 5y ago
    > If we banned people who wrote buggy code That's not the standard for any kind of engineering. Professional Engineers make errors all the time. But they also design systems with fail safes, redundancies, safety factors, etc... You design systems with the expectation that failures will happen. Users will do stupid things. Highly improbably sequences will probably happen. Not all code needs to be designed so carefully. Nobody cares if Hacker News is offline for a few hours. But the software systems in self driving cars or running an MRI machine probably should be designed by licensed professionals who can stand up to their bosses and say "this can't ship until these improvements are made" because if it does ship, they can be personally sued for malpractice and lose their license.
G3rn0ti 5y ago
Well, yes, this applies to engineering. But not to software engineering. Personally, I like „software engineering“ as it is — being a free profession where talent counts more than a degree.
- pjmlp 5y ago
  It surely does, e.g. in Portugal you can't even name a Software Engineering degree without approval from the Order. You are not required to do the exam, provided there is no civil liability or signing projects as the legally responsible Software/Informatics Engineering.
- criddell 5y ago
  > talent counts more than a degree Are you saying for MD or PE that talent doesn't matter? Anybody can say they are a software engineer. The title means nothing.
  - ipaddr 5y ago
    Yes. A degree matters much more than talent. If you can get a degree you can practice. The most talented person in the world with no degree can't. Some people go to places where their low talent but high cash flow allows them to get a license.
    - criddell 5y ago
      Okay, so for an MD a degree is necessary that's true. But an MD with a degree and no talent probably won't be an MD for long. MD at least means something. "Software engineer" means nothing.
      - ipaddr 5y ago
        Once you are an MD unless you challenge powerful forces in your association or hospital you are free to practice bad medicine as long as you can stay within some reasonable guidelines around billing and when to order tests. This gets exposed with surgery but is a lot easier with a GI doctor. They both mean something. You have to dive in to get the real scope regardless. If you just need a title for your commerical MD would carry more weight around diet products and a developer around a new software offering.
wott 5y ago
> In Europe being an engineer has civil accountability on issues. You can be fined really high if you hire a self-called engineer without a proper degree. One more case of mistakenly presenting 'Europe' as an homogenous entity, whereas it depends on countries like anywhere else. In France anyone can claim an engineer position, it is not licensed. You just cannot tell you hold an engineer degree if you haven't one; and that's pretty theoretical, because basically nobody uses the proper formal title (unlike for example in Germany where they always use the words Dipl. Ing.), so you can always fall back on claiming you are talking about the position and not the degree title.

criddell 5y ago

> Software Engineer is actually a licensed profession in many states Last time I looked, I couldn't find any. Some states tried for a while, but I think they all gave up.

hhh 5y ago

Lightly glancing it seems like there are hard requirements for a college education for some of these. That’s a hard-stop for many (including myself.)

tata71 5y ago
Even if you had a degree, working in this field should teach you it's not a requirement.
- voakbasda 5y ago
  This does not deserve to be downvoted. A degree is secondary to actual talent. Too many students in my graduating class were undeserving of their degree, and plenty of folks can do the job without it.
dnautics 5y ago
yeah, that's fine. You should call yourself a software developer (or, as I call myself, a software plumber). An software engineer, minimally IMO, is someone who can 1) produce a software BOM, and 2) can craft an SLA. I can maybe do 1, and can't do 2. So, I don't call myself a software engineer.

88j88 5y ago

Looks like they stopped offering exam to license people: https://www.nspe.org/resources/pe-magazine/may-2018/ncees-ends-software-engineering-pe-exam https://www.nspe.org/resources/pe-magazine/may-2018/ncees-en...