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I worked with people from China at a previous job. They came to visit us (South America) and while having dinner I lightly suggested things in China are difficu

I worked with people from China at a previous job. They came to visit us (South America) and while having dinner I lightly suggested things in China are difficult when it comes to freedom, right? Their facial expression changed immediately. They said it was better not to talk about that. They were who knows how many kilometers from home, not a single Chinese national around to report them, and they still feared talking about this subject. It was a short but eye opening experience for me.

mike_h 5y ago
I’ve worked primarily with Chinese for years, both inside and outside of China. They consistently poke fun at and speak thoughtfully about the government and policy. It’s possible they just had learned to avoid being baited by westerners looking to confirm a certain narrative.
mytailorisrich 5y ago
May they simply did not want to be put on the spot by getting into a political argument. Arguably you brought up a topic not suitable for a social dinner with colleagues.
- gtirloni 5y ago
  Nobody was arguing, we were interested in their view. You don't know how close we were on a daily basis.
  - mytailorisrich 5y ago
    Discussing politics is always getting into argument territory and always best avoided on social occasions, especially if you do not know the opinions of the people around you. For instance, I (in Europe) don't "lightly suggest" things in the US are difficult when it comes to guns/Trump/abortion/etc to American colleagues because these are sensitive political topics and nothing good can come out of that. You mentioned it was in South America so maybe another example would be to mention drug cartels and Pablo Escobar to Colombian colleagues. I can imagine your Chinese colleagues thinking "here we go again..." and politely stirring the conversation to another topic.
    - gtirloni 5y ago
      You're imagining wrong and assuming a lot of things. "Lightly suggesting" something is "difficult" is a conversation starter. Not arguing. Maybe we're getting into "cultural differences" area and we should probably agree to disagree.
      - mytailorisrich 5y ago
        I did not say that you were arguing. I just pointed out that you were starting a conversation that could lead nowhere pleasant for anyone so your guests probably wisely stirred away from it.
        zepto 5y ago
        He said you are wrong. It’s hard to see why you would keep trying to undermine him.
        azinman2 5y ago
        Or, you’re making a ton of conjecture without knowing the situation, the people involved, their relationship, what was actually said, the emotional context, and are forming all of these opinions stated as fact from a few lines of text on an HN comment. I wish people were more charitable on HN, on the internet, and in life.
        mytailorisrich 5y ago
        What was not charitable in simply suggesting an alternative explanation that did not involve fear of retribution? This is a friendly discussion (or so I thought).
        azinman2 5y ago
        You told the GP how they should not act during dinner conversations, and double downed despite the GP telling you that you didn’t know how close they were. That comes off to me not respecting what they were telling you about their relationship, which is uncharitable in my book. Given my upvotes, I’m not the only one that feels that way. Separately, plenty of good relationships can discuss politics without issue, and to not do so would leave the world only to their information bubbles.
dudul 5y ago
Reminds me of when I was back in high school in the very early 2000's. We had a Chinese girl in our class and during a History lesson about Mao she started crying and yelling that everything the teacher was saying was wrong, that Mao was the greatest leader, etc. She was not visiting from China, she literally had been in Europe for more than a decade, and still.
Qub3d 5y ago
My family hosted a Taiwanese exchange student when I was in high school. One day, he and I were out seeing the town. He discovered a Chinese Tea house in an out-of-the-way corner, and we stopped in. The owner, a Chinese expat, greeted us enthusiastically and personally sat down to serve us tea. The conversation was lovely; she was explaining the source of the tea, the preparation and serving method, etc. and I was just enjoying the experience when she offhandedly asked where he was from. When he responded, "Taiwan," she immediately frowned and made some terse comment in Mandarin, to which he retorted, also in Mandarin. There was a tense exchange, and then she abruptly turned to me and started asking me questions again in English, changing the subject. I had not yet learned of the One-China stance, so when we left I asked him what happened. He told me that she admonished him for not saying he was from "Chinese Taipei", and apparently some other nasty remarks he decided not to translate. It was such a shock to see that level of nationalism exhibit itself in real-time. She was genuinely offended and angry, not annoyed. I suspect if I hadn't been there, she'd have told him to leave immediately.
- mytailorisrich 5y ago
  This story sounds doubtful to me. It's perfectly OK for a Chinese to say that they are from Taiwan, and Chinese, be it from the mainland or Taiwan, always say that: They're from Taiwan, Beijing, Guangdong, you name it. It's like saying which state you're from in the US. No-one ever says "Chinese Taipei", certainly not among Chinese, which is just some political compromise, mostly in the Olympic Committee. The only issue I can think of is if the question was specifically about the country of origin, in which case some people may indeed object to "Taiwan" and argue that it should be "China" instead (but not "Chinese Taipei"...)
  - United857 5y ago
    Depends on the context. The term "Taiwan" standalone is neutral, but e.g. having "Taiwan" and "China" in e.g. a list of countries would not be. I've been asked many times in mainland China where I was from, and I say "Taiwan" without any issues.
  - coupdejarnac 5y ago
wolverine876 5y ago
I don't know about those people in particular, but the way totalitarian states have worked in the past is to have them report secretly on each other. This keeps everyone in a constant state of fear and oppression. Read Koba the Dread by Martin Amis for a powerful, extremely well-written account of it.
exabrial 5y ago
That's been my experience too. When traveling to China, we were given a class and they advised us to not discuss any politics, even American ones, overseas. Other items that were "off topic" including voting, rights for non-traditional lifestyles, abortion, death penalties, taxes, and discussions about world conflicts.
- BLKNSLVR 5y ago
  Abortion world be on the list of taboo topics when touring the US as well. Not because it's sensitive everywhere, but because it's very sensitive in some places.
  - exabrial 5y ago
    Sort of, you can talk freely in America about abortion without fear of death; we're literally doing it right now. I think what you're referring to what is socially appropriate. Most of these topics would be poor taste to discuss in public, but the mere act of doing so wouldn't land you in the back of a windowless van, which is the difference.
odiroot 5y ago
Maybe it was that specific group of people? All my associates from China had no problems discussing these issues (and three Ts) with me. Some were supporting the party, some weren't, but they still shared. No one, naturally, would blog about it or openly shout on the street but families and friends (from what I've heard) do talk about these political issues.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
yololol 5y ago
Not necessary. There's a chance that they support their government, and they didn't want to hear the usual western stuff about freedom and how bad their country is. I had many similar experiences as a student. Western students would start this discussion to Chinese students in anticipation of hearing how oppressed they feel. What they would often get is an irritated Chinese student who will tell them that it's hard to control 1.3 billion people and that their government has done a lot of them etc. And the western student's brains would hardwire unable to accept that answer and conclude "Clearly they're brainwashed" :D PS: I'm not taking sides here
sudosysgen 5y ago
It is better for someone that does support the Chinese government not to voice their support in the West. It will avoid many conflicts. This goes for pretty much anyone who agrees with an unpopular regime and is a popular practice.
CRConrad 5y ago
> not a single Chinese national around to report them You said "people", "they", and "them" -- all plural. Did you talk to them separately, one-on-one, or were they afraid of being denounced by each other?

mike_h 5y ago

I’ve worked primarily with Chinese for years, both inside and outside of China. They consistently poke fun at and speak thoughtfully about the government and policy. It’s possible they just had learned to avoid being baited by westerners looking to confirm a certain narrative.

mytailorisrich 5y ago

May they simply did not want to be put on the spot by getting into a political argument. Arguably you brought up a topic not suitable for a social dinner with colleagues.

gtirloni 5y ago
Nobody was arguing, we were interested in their view. You don't know how close we were on a daily basis.
- mytailorisrich 5y ago
  Discussing politics is always getting into argument territory and always best avoided on social occasions, especially if you do not know the opinions of the people around you. For instance, I (in Europe) don't "lightly suggest" things in the US are difficult when it comes to guns/Trump/abortion/etc to American colleagues because these are sensitive political topics and nothing good can come out of that. You mentioned it was in South America so maybe another example would be to mention drug cartels and Pablo Escobar to Colombian colleagues. I can imagine your Chinese colleagues thinking "here we go again..." and politely stirring the conversation to another topic.
  - gtirloni 5y ago
    You're imagining wrong and assuming a lot of things. "Lightly suggesting" something is "difficult" is a conversation starter. Not arguing. Maybe we're getting into "cultural differences" area and we should probably agree to disagree.
    - mytailorisrich 5y ago
      I did not say that you were arguing. I just pointed out that you were starting a conversation that could lead nowhere pleasant for anyone so your guests probably wisely stirred away from it.
      - zepto 5y ago
        He said you are wrong. It’s hard to see why you would keep trying to undermine him.
      - azinman2 5y ago
        Or, you’re making a ton of conjecture without knowing the situation, the people involved, their relationship, what was actually said, the emotional context, and are forming all of these opinions stated as fact from a few lines of text on an HN comment. I wish people were more charitable on HN, on the internet, and in life.
        mytailorisrich 5y ago
        What was not charitable in simply suggesting an alternative explanation that did not involve fear of retribution? This is a friendly discussion (or so I thought).
        azinman2 5y ago
        You told the GP how they should not act during dinner conversations, and double downed despite the GP telling you that you didn’t know how close they were. That comes off to me not respecting what they were telling you about their relationship, which is uncharitable in my book. Given my upvotes, I’m not the only one that feels that way. Separately, plenty of good relationships can discuss politics without issue, and to not do so would leave the world only to their information bubbles.

dudul 5y ago

Reminds me of when I was back in high school in the very early 2000's. We had a Chinese girl in our class and during a History lesson about Mao she started crying and yelling that everything the teacher was saying was wrong, that Mao was the greatest leader, etc. She was not visiting from China, she literally had been in Europe for more than a decade, and still.

Qub3d 5y ago

My family hosted a Taiwanese exchange student when I was in high school. One day, he and I were out seeing the town. He discovered a Chinese Tea house in an out-of-the-way corner, and we stopped in. The owner, a Chinese expat, greeted us enthusiastically and personally sat down to serve us tea. The conversation was lovely; she was explaining the source of the tea, the preparation and serving method, etc. and I was just enjoying the experience when she offhandedly asked where he was from. When he responded, "Taiwan," she immediately frowned and made some terse comment in Mandarin, to which he retorted, also in Mandarin. There was a tense exchange, and then she abruptly turned to me and started asking me questions again in English, changing the subject. I had not yet learned of the One-China stance, so when we left I asked him what happened. He told me that she admonished him for not saying he was from "Chinese Taipei", and apparently some other nasty remarks he decided not to translate. It was such a shock to see that level of nationalism exhibit itself in real-time. She was genuinely offended and angry, not annoyed. I suspect if I hadn't been there, she'd have told him to leave immediately.

mytailorisrich 5y ago
This story sounds doubtful to me. It's perfectly OK for a Chinese to say that they are from Taiwan, and Chinese, be it from the mainland or Taiwan, always say that: They're from Taiwan, Beijing, Guangdong, you name it. It's like saying which state you're from in the US. No-one ever says "Chinese Taipei", certainly not among Chinese, which is just some political compromise, mostly in the Olympic Committee. The only issue I can think of is if the question was specifically about the country of origin, in which case some people may indeed object to "Taiwan" and argue that it should be "China" instead (but not "Chinese Taipei"...)
- United857 5y ago
  Depends on the context. The term "Taiwan" standalone is neutral, but e.g. having "Taiwan" and "China" in e.g. a list of countries would not be. I've been asked many times in mainland China where I was from, and I say "Taiwan" without any issues.
- coupdejarnac 5y ago

wolverine876 5y ago

I don't know about those people in particular, but the way totalitarian states have worked in the past is to have them report secretly on each other. This keeps everyone in a constant state of fear and oppression. Read Koba the Dread by Martin Amis for a powerful, extremely well-written account of it.

exabrial 5y ago

That's been my experience too. When traveling to China, we were given a class and they advised us to not discuss any politics, even American ones, overseas. Other items that were "off topic" including voting, rights for non-traditional lifestyles, abortion, death penalties, taxes, and discussions about world conflicts.

BLKNSLVR 5y ago
Abortion world be on the list of taboo topics when touring the US as well. Not because it's sensitive everywhere, but because it's very sensitive in some places.
- exabrial 5y ago
  Sort of, you can talk freely in America about abortion without fear of death; we're literally doing it right now. I think what you're referring to what is socially appropriate. Most of these topics would be poor taste to discuss in public, but the mere act of doing so wouldn't land you in the back of a windowless van, which is the difference.

odiroot 5y ago

Maybe it was that specific group of people? All my associates from China had no problems discussing these issues (and three Ts) with me. Some were supporting the party, some weren't, but they still shared. No one, naturally, would blog about it or openly shout on the street but families and friends (from what I've heard) do talk about these political issues.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

yololol 5y ago

Not necessary. There's a chance that they support their government, and they didn't want to hear the usual western stuff about freedom and how bad their country is. I had many similar experiences as a student. Western students would start this discussion to Chinese students in anticipation of hearing how oppressed they feel. What they would often get is an irritated Chinese student who will tell them that it's hard to control 1.3 billion people and that their government has done a lot of them etc. And the western student's brains would hardwire unable to accept that answer and conclude "Clearly they're brainwashed" :D PS: I'm not taking sides here

sudosysgen 5y ago

It is better for someone that does support the Chinese government not to voice their support in the West. It will avoid many conflicts. This goes for pretty much anyone who agrees with an unpopular regime and is a popular practice.

CRConrad 5y ago

> not a single Chinese national around to report them You said "people", "they", and "them" -- all plural. Did you talk to them separately, one-on-one, or were they afraid of being denounced by each other?