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It's a very weak response from Purdue. Zhihao Kong was bullied and followed around on campus for commemorating the victims of the Tiananmen masacre. He was call
by yholio 5y ago
It's a very weak response from Purdue. Zhihao Kong was bullied and followed around on campus for commemorating the victims of the Tiananmen masacre. He was called a CIA agent by fellow Purdue students and was reported to the Chinese state, who attempted to silence him by forcefully leaning on his family in Hong Kong.
The identities of the bullies is well known and the extent of abuse is borderline criminal. There should be only one remedy: imediate expulsion of any agent of repression of the Chinese state.
The statement clearly fall short of what is required, it simply wants to appease those outraged by threatening with vague punishments, without risking the large revenue from Chinese students.
- merpnderp 5y agoIt does at least set the stage to expel them if the behavior continues. Although it appears you are correct, this is way too little way too late.
- criddell 5y agoI think this is an opportunity to raise the prominence of the issue. I wish Purdue had explicitly mentioned the Tiananmen Massacre in this notice. We should talk about it. Our diplomats should be applying pressure around Peng Shuai's status. I'd love to see a debate in Congress about our participation in the Olympics and what that says about our support of this regime.
- Nevermark 5y agoI think it is better they didn't. Students are not being (considered for) expelled for their views of the Tiananmen Massacre one way or another. Taking any stance on that, in this context, would muddy those waters and make Prudue look like it was doing a political purge. The problem that produced the statement was harassment. Not political views.
- criddell 5y agoIs saying the Tiananmen Massacre happened a political view?
- merpnderp 5y agoI would think that a government machining gunning down peacefully assembled civilians and then running over the bodies with tanks, then shooting any doctors who attempted to help the wounded, wouldn't be politicized. That we can all agree it is deeply and unquestionably evil.
- Nevermark 5y agoYes, it would be very nice if we could all understand important things without misunderstandings based on personal biases or misinformation. In the meantime, debating without harassing each other is the best way forward.
- Nevermark 5y agoSomething being a political view doesn't mean its not verifiable fact. A debate has different facets - political or not political - fact or not fact - harassment or not harassment. In this case the problem that needed to be addressed by Purdue was the harassment. Students debating different understandings of Tiananmen Square (regardless of either sides merits) was not the issue that required intervention by university leadership.
- JumpCrisscross 5y ago> should be only one remedy: imediate expulsion of any agent of repression of the Chinese state There should be the same remedy that is provided to any other bully. These are still kids. There is a learning opportunity. If they refuse to learn, yes, expulsion should be in the cards.
- CapitalistCartr 5y agoThis isn't some kids bullying another kid. These are adults representing a national government. This is a nation bullying someone inside the United States for exercising free speech. The message needs to be received in Beijing, not merely Indiana.
- echelon 5y agoShowing them a kindness that they wouldn't receive back home might break through to them, or it might not. The situation should definitely carry gravity and have consequences for repeat offenses. I think a bigger problem is two-fold: 1) Universities are addicted to Chinese student tuition funds, and they don't want to rock the boat. I doubt they care as much about the students themselves. My university totally half assed their program (eg. some Chinese students would have questions that went unanswered, professors tended to pay them less attention, etc.), and I felt so sorry for the students. 2) Chinese students tend to stick in groups together rather than be integrated and mixed amongst the other student populations. They're assigned the same dormitory blocks, do shopping/dining together, and they don't really get to experience America in the same way that other international students do. Not sure if this is due to design or negligence.
- cloverich 5y agoIt is kind of interesting. At my college, we had large batches of students from (Mexican) migrant workers in our dorms. With very few exceptions the majority of two person dorms were 1:1 matching one of them with a second generation (and onwards) citizen. I thought it was a great way to expose all of us to both integration and diversity. It wasn't smooth for everyone of course, yet I thought it was a good balance of culturally jarring experiences, while still providing close proximity to people from the same background (e.g. several migrant worker kids in same hall still). I haven't really thought much about that since College but kind of assumed most places did something similar. (We also had specific classes that highlighted migrant worker issues / history).
- oxfeed65261 5y agoPerdue President Mitch Daniels said “Those seeking to deny those rights to others, let alone to collude with foreign governments in repressing them, will need to pursue their education elsewhere,” but there is no indication that the students have been expelled. The statement is bizarre and nonsensical if the students are not expelled.
- abruzzi 5y ago"If those students can be identified..." It sounds from the statement that they don't know who they are at this point. This sounds to me like an initial statement before a full investigation has completed. I would also say that for the rights of other students, there should be some kind of fair process to ensure that the accused are fairly treated.
- lazide 5y agoAlso it’s what they would say if they wanted to look like they were taking a hard stance while having an out to avoid actually doing anything concrete or with consequences. Only time will tell what actually is done.
- netcan 5y agoThe student has stated (on reddit) that he has identities and proof at ready for police and/or the university.
- dmix 5y agoIt also sounds like they’d need proof they colluded with a foreign entity which is a very high bar.
- colinmhayes 5y ago> Those seeking to deny those rights to others I'd say harassment falls into this category, so no proof of collusion with the CCP is needed.
- 5y ago
- mensetmanusman 5y agoThe administration can’t ban these students because they need the money from these students to keep their jobs.
- bsanr2 5y agoImagine educating Americans in America.
- outside1234 5y agoThis student is a grad student, so if anything, he is the exploited one here.
- elteto 5y agoPurdue isn't going to go bankrupt because of 200 students.
- lazide 5y agoDepending on how they handle it, they could end up blacklisted by all Chinese students - which is likely a whole lot more than 200 students. That it could also (in an extreme case) cause many employers with Chinese ties to avoid alumni with Perdue ties to avoid backlash from China is an outcome they can’t ignore either. CCP is not known for rational, reasoned responses in situations like this.
- Nevermark 5y agoUnfortunately, most of those responses are very rational and reasoned. The regime has decided that intimidation is a useful tool for defending its narratives, and uses it in many contexts. That global campaigne makes an even handed response for Purdue important, both for this context, and helping set an example for wider contexts. We need to maintain/develop a strong and even handed culture - standing up for everyone's right of expression without harassment.
- lazide 5y ago
- rkk3 5y ago> for commemorating the victims of the Tiananmen Masacre You realize the 89' protestors were trying to overthrow the government (thats how you establish the Democracy). No surprise that celebrating failed-revolutionaries is contentious.
- chernevik 5y agoI contend that those seeking to overthrow tyrannies are to be celebrated.
- rkk3 5y agoSounds good until you try to figure out how to classify tyrannies.
- vhgyu75e6u 5y agoThe ones that block freedom of the press, block and censore the internet, deploy military force against civilians, anex peaceful territories by force, push other democracies to overwrite their history, and commit genocide... So the Chinese government.
- rkk3 5y agoAnd those are all things the US, the UK and most western government's have done & will do again.
- Nevermark 5y agoNobody is going to show up at your home for saying so. Many US citizens will agree with you. A country which improves its behavior through self-criticism from its citizens is not a tyranny. It is just a government that makes serious mistakes. No form of government has managed to avoid that yet. Democracy and freedom don't guarantee the majority will behave well all the time. But they systematically leave the door open for improvement - even if it takes a lot of effort.
- chernevik 5y agoHe can't immediately announce punishment without violation of due process. The perpetrators may be known, but even so that has to be formally established before the school can do anything about them. It's unfortunate that there isn't a greater response from the student body in defense of free speech.
- ivalm 5y agoMaybe, but again a university is not bound by due process requirements. I do agree that it might be good practice to not violate them. Let’s see if Purdue does eventually act.
- vanusa 5y agoWe are all ethically bound to abide by the principles of due process in our dealings with others, whether proscribed by law or not.
- nobodyandproud 5y agoAside from being arbitrary: Is due process a single, one-size fits all?
- ajmurmann 5y agoIt seems like harassment should be enough to expell someone even before this statement.
- lazide 5y agoIf you can prove it was harassment and not someone just saying something the other party didn’t like in a place both parties had a right to be. If we’re both at a bar we have a right to be at, and you keep saying you think I’m a jerk and should get kicked out - is that harassment? If you follow me there every time I go? Probably. If you don’t, probably not. Proving one way or another can be difficult.
- karaterobot 5y agoI thought it was a pretty good response. From the article: > If those students who issued the threats can be identified, they will be subject to appropriate disciplinary action. It sounds like they don't know who the students are yet, so they can't punish anybody. Anyway, I'd rather they say "appropriate disciplinary action", because it implies they'll actually try to find out the full story, which is how I want an administration to behave.
- regnull 5y agoIt sounds like they are trying to have it both ways. On one hand, they need to do something. On the other hand, they can say, well we couldn’t identify the perpetrators, so oops, we tried.
- Lambent_Cactus 5y agoI seems like a lot hinges on "The identities of the bullies is well known." The President's letter says "If those students who issues the threats can be identified, they will be subject to appropriate disciplinary sanction." Have the threateners been reliably identified in, for example, press accounts? It seems very possible that in some communities on campus "everyone knows who it is" without the administration actually knowing, or being able to reliably prove, who it was.
- disabled 5y agoThe thing that the Purdue University President forgot to mention: Civil Rights Act of 1964. Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 prohibits discrimination on the basis of race, color, religion, gender, pregnancy, or *national origin*. Honestly, students need to understand that if they are perpetrating this violence (yes, harassment and intimidation, whether or not it is physical, is a form of violence) they will face severe disciplinary action. Also, they need to understand that they are breaking federal law. Unfortunately, Purdue University likely will not be taking this as seriously as possible. There are so many other public universities that have better formal administrative policies towards this kind of behavior.
- golemotron 5y agoTitle VII applies to employers, not students.
- splitstud 5y agoThese are good points, but this isn't a case of discrimination. What is it about Purdue that makes them unlikely to take this seriously?
- stickfigure 5y ago200 Chinese students have no material financial impact in a body of 35,000 students. I'm inclined to take the statement at face value, and won't be surprised if more actions come as they work out the facts.
- rdiddly 5y ago200 students who would be quickly replaced with 200 other students from the wait list, I might add.
- skeeter2020 5y agoAt Purdue? absolutely. THis isn't some unknown regional school but a globally recognized in-dmeand uni.
- gkop 5y agoUniversities compete for the out-of-state and foreign students that pay their bills, they are not trivially replaceable. And if you exclude Chinese students from the replacement pool, it's even smaller.
- gkop 5y agoPublic universities make their tuition money on the out-of-state and foreign students, so your denominator here is an order of magnitude too big. Every marginal out-of-state or foreign student lost, is one or more in-state students whose tuition cannot be subsidized.
- stickfigure 5y ago200 out of 3500 is still not enough to care.
- gkop 5y agoPrices are discovered on the margin, I wouldn’t be so sure. I believe university administrators do care, anyhow.
- netcan 5y agoI think part of the problem is that the "quarrel" is with the CCP itself. Students get into a political argument. Maybe it went over a line, into harassment. The point at which it becomes beyond the pale, as Kong himself stated" was when the pro-ccp students "weaponized" the CCP/state. IE, called chinese secret police and arranged for an intimidation visit to his parents.
- chroem- 5y agoChina has quite a few programs in place to use their students and expats for power projection. China United Front Work Department [1] tries to place PRC citizens into foreign companies in order to gather intelligence and influence them. Confucius Institutes [2] are widespread throughout American universities and use PRC international students to promote state interests. The reality that Americans are unwilling to accept is that PRC nationals are agents of the state by default. Even if a PRC national doesn't fall into one of the above programs, they are still incentivized by China's social credit system to act in the state's interests, even while abroad. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Front_Work_Department https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Front_Work_Department [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confucius_Institute https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confucius_Institute
- skeeter2020 5y agoWhile it doesn't have the immediate satisifaction of a twitter pitchfork mob, I appreciate a measured approach IF there is serious (albeit slow moving) action taken. The last thing we need is an equally impactful response in the opposite direction. He's the head of the school and needs to balance a wide range of perspectives and demands. The context has been set so now I'm watching to see if the actions back it up. If not, you're right in your immediate assessment, but this has big geo-political implications and needs to take time. It's similar to the Meng Wanzhou extradition fiasco; she was under house arrest in a mansion while 2 Canadians languished in a Chinese prison. IT was completely unfair and imbalanced but we had to go through our process, not stoop to theirs.
- toss1 5y ago>>The last thing we need is an equally impactful response in the opposite direction. We need a MORE impactful response form this side, but it does not have to be instant. And you are correct that it has to be carefully investigated, soundly based, and measured for maximum effect. Ultimately, if you are a "student" here and are participating in state power projection, spying, or abuse of anyone merely participating in protected activities, we need to expel you not only from the school but from the country. Would China tolerate US "students" on their land spying, attempting to project US power, or abusing others on their land? Not for a second, and we shouldn't either. Moreover, stronger actions need to be taken to provide consequences to the CCP for attempting this kind of nonsense. The CCP also needs to stop it from home, because the repeated spy cases of Chinese ppl in academia have already tainted the reputation of ALL Chinese students. I'm sure it is already shutting them out of interesting internships that might also use even CUI (Controlled Unclassified Data) in unrelated parts of the business.
- oceanghost 5y ago> Would China tolerate US "students" on their land spying, attempting to project US power, or abusing others on their land? China is the worlds weird abusive ex-boyfriend.
- 5y ago
- 99_00 5y ago>reported to the Chinese state Chinese law requires Chinese citizens and companies to spy when asked. It's literally a law. https://www.canada.ca/en/security-intelligence-service/corporate/publications/china-and-the-age-of-strategic-rivalry/chinas-intelligence-law-and-the-countrys-future-intelligence-competitions.html https://www.canada.ca/en/security-intelligence-service/corpo...
- BrazzVuvuzela 5y agoThat doesn't mean we should tolerate it happening in America.
- throw10920 5y agoInteresting. Does this make every Chinese citizen in the United States an agent of a foreign power? (I suspect the answer is yes) https://definitions.uslegal.com/a/agent-of-a-foreign-power/ https://definitions.uslegal.com/a/agent-of-a-foreign-power/
- BrazzVuvuzela 5y agoOnly those who follow through with it.
- hackerfromthefu 5y ago.. so their parents don't get 'dissapeared'
- BrazzVuvuzela 5y agoA coerced agent is still an agent. But my point is that those who don't participate in such activities, despite the demands of the CCP, are not agents of the CCP.
- vaxman 5y agoWhat is the end game in allowing PROC nationals into American universities? Even without a kinetic confrontation, current trends indicate PROC will dominate the world economy, ocean navigation, the African and part of South American continents, near Earth orbit and the Moon because of technology they've already stolen, downloaded, misappropriated and bought from the West --and they're known to be creating bioweapons that kill only non-Chinese people while operating concentration camps that harvest organs, rape and murder millions of racial minorities! Let's see Purdue prove they are not feckless by leveraging this to terminate Chinese investments and expel all members and family members of the CCP that refuse to surrender their Chinese citizenship, become naturalized Americans and (civilly) agree to lifelong warrantless monitoring of their loyalty to America.
- throw10920 5y ago"creating bioweapons that kill only non-Chinese people"? I've never heard of this before...
- generj 5y agoHow would that even work? There isn’t a gene for Chinese citizenship that would impact any disease or illness. …I’m unfortunately assuming the poster is making a bad-faith reference to COVID-19. Some conspiracy theorists have been labeling it a bio weapon and ignoring the deaths from the initial outbreak.
- vaxman 5y ago> How would that even work? https://youtu.be/g1L3spfQZc4 https://youtu.be/g1L3spfQZc4
- deafsquid69 5y agoIt's not a new concept https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_bioweapon https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_bioweapon
- CRConrad 5y ago