7 ms·

We have the same problem in the US. Certain "Freedom loving" sects applaud military intervention, increased police presence, spying on citizens, and the death o

We have the same problem in the US. Certain "Freedom loving" sects applaud military intervention, increased police presence, spying on citizens, and the death of any protester, peaceful or otherwise.

throwaway0a5e 5y ago
That seems like a very, very, broad brush.
- hkt 5y ago
  Sadly not - remember, the US with the UK's complicity is going to let Julian Assange rot in prison probably for the rest of his life. For engaging in an act of journalism which in all likelihood ended the Iraq war, or at least made a substantial contribution to doing so.
- yholio 5y ago
  It's the same type of problem, but much more limited in extent. Every country has it to some degree, authoritarian regimes typically go crazy with nationalism since it's the most powerful tool they have to force their victims on the side of the aggressors against the evil foreigners.
BLKNSLVR 5y ago
US embarrassments, however, have movies made about them, as opposed to burying them as deeply as possible whilst simultaneously threatening every single citizen with, essentially, removal from society, if they speak against the chosen narrative. No country is innocent, some are, however, free (moreso, at least, enough to matter, enough to choose if the need arises).
- stelonix 5y ago
  Those movies are more often than not glorifying such embarrassments, which make them propaganda. As an analogy for China & the US, you can say one of them is Orwellian while the other is Huxleyan. They're both oppressive, but it's about time to stop pretending only coercion is bad; propaganda is everywhere in american media and it's the same tactic used by autocracies in the 40s: spin everything you do as "us vs them they evil" and dehumanize anything your foes do as "they evil not free genocide". People who say there's a genocide in China with 0 Uygur deaths are the same to dismiss the Iraq war with millions dead; calling it what it was, a genocide, will never even pass by their brains. Double standards.
  - asimpletune 5y ago
    First, now sure I follow how Orwell glorifies these embarrassments, because I think it's the exact opposite. Second, the USA/EU is not perfectly innocent wrt to propaganda, but still... it could be much worse.
    - stelonix 5y ago
      Subjective comparisons are really useless on a debate eg. "I think USA/EU are bad but China is worse" while someone else will say exactly the opposite. You'll then say "he's blinded by propaganda" and the other side will say the same. If the debate is in a western website, you win, if it's in China, they win. That's a flamewar shitshow, not a debate. The Orwell/Huxley comparison wrt the way China/America respectively enforce their narrative. China is through crackdown of dissent, coercion, while the US is through propaganda that paints everything America does as righteous, inherently good, altruist, selfless... You only have to look at the output of Hollywood or modern videogames to see such an obvious fact. Of course, if you're the target of state propaganda, it'll be hard to decouple what you've been fed your whole life as truth from geopolitical interests. Being an outsider I can see the bullshit in both governments, but the one I'm worried about is the one which has been belligerent since I was born and much before that.
      - asimpletune 5y ago
        Yeah, I mean you're basically saying if someone is so inclined they can approach any question from a perspective of bad faith, and never recognize any merit to a theoretically valid argument. I don't think that problem in general can be solved, even if we eliminated propaganda or otherwise. No one can make anyone agree with someone, even if they're right. That being said, I can still ask questions and say what I think and see what happens. I'm legitimately open to being wrong, in fact I'd love to be. Also, I'll just add this briefly, I didn't say anything about China. I just said it could be much worse. That could come from my own people (I'm from the USA).
        stelonix 5y ago
- titzer 5y ago
  I have yet to see a feature-length film depicting Trump the way, e.g. Oliver Stone's "W" or Michael Moore's "Fahrenheit 9/11" depicted Bush. Trump's crimes are buried in a mountain of...other crimes, and the atmosphere is so thick with bullshit that investigating facts is to tempt a firehouse of political hate of epic proportions. I think certain topics are virtually suicide these days.
  - BLKNSLVR 5y ago
    I think that's just a case of not enough time having passed. There's probably so much material to sift through.
- Aunche 5y ago
  One "feature" of democracy is that it doesn't matter whether people speak out against something. You just need 51% of people to agree with you, which can come from manufactured consent, and you can accomplish all the evil deeds you want all the same. If you try to do anything thar actually threatens the government's operations, you're treasonous and can be punished accordingly.
- GordonS 5y ago
  > US embarrassments, however, have movies made about them, as opposed to burying them as deeply as possible In some ways, I think this can actually serve to make people believe that real events were fictional - after all, movies are generally fictional or at least with a good dose of artistic license. I also must point out that some western governments will go to extreme lengths to bury bad actions as deeply as possible - if it wasn't for leakers, there are a whole host of Western war crimes and atrocities that would never have surfaced to the public. Even when they do, government and media propaganda machines are very efficient at convincing the general populace there is nothing to see here. We like to berate China and others for bad actions (rightly so), but in many respects Western governments are appalling hypocrites.
bobthechef 5y ago
[dead]
Veelox 5y ago
Hey, let me see if I can play this game! We have the same problem in the US. Certain "Equity loving" sects applaud disregarding national boarders, easy release of multiple time offenders, shouting down those who disagree, and the death of any vaccine protester.
BurningFrog 5y ago
Not at all the same problem, since those people do not control the government.

We have the same problem in the US. Certain "Freedom loving" sects applaud military intervention, increased police presence, spying on citizens, and the death of any protester, peaceful or otherwise.

throwaway0a5e 5y ago

That seems like a very, very, broad brush.

hkt 5y ago
Sadly not - remember, the US with the UK's complicity is going to let Julian Assange rot in prison probably for the rest of his life. For engaging in an act of journalism which in all likelihood ended the Iraq war, or at least made a substantial contribution to doing so.
yholio 5y ago
It's the same type of problem, but much more limited in extent. Every country has it to some degree, authoritarian regimes typically go crazy with nationalism since it's the most powerful tool they have to force their victims on the side of the aggressors against the evil foreigners.

BLKNSLVR 5y ago

US embarrassments, however, have movies made about them, as opposed to burying them as deeply as possible whilst simultaneously threatening every single citizen with, essentially, removal from society, if they speak against the chosen narrative. No country is innocent, some are, however, free (moreso, at least, enough to matter, enough to choose if the need arises).

stelonix 5y ago
Those movies are more often than not glorifying such embarrassments, which make them propaganda. As an analogy for China & the US, you can say one of them is Orwellian while the other is Huxleyan. They're both oppressive, but it's about time to stop pretending only coercion is bad; propaganda is everywhere in american media and it's the same tactic used by autocracies in the 40s: spin everything you do as "us vs them they evil" and dehumanize anything your foes do as "they evil not free genocide". People who say there's a genocide in China with 0 Uygur deaths are the same to dismiss the Iraq war with millions dead; calling it what it was, a genocide, will never even pass by their brains. Double standards.
- asimpletune 5y ago
  First, now sure I follow how Orwell glorifies these embarrassments, because I think it's the exact opposite. Second, the USA/EU is not perfectly innocent wrt to propaganda, but still... it could be much worse.
  - stelonix 5y ago
    Subjective comparisons are really useless on a debate eg. "I think USA/EU are bad but China is worse" while someone else will say exactly the opposite. You'll then say "he's blinded by propaganda" and the other side will say the same. If the debate is in a western website, you win, if it's in China, they win. That's a flamewar shitshow, not a debate. The Orwell/Huxley comparison wrt the way China/America respectively enforce their narrative. China is through crackdown of dissent, coercion, while the US is through propaganda that paints everything America does as righteous, inherently good, altruist, selfless... You only have to look at the output of Hollywood or modern videogames to see such an obvious fact. Of course, if you're the target of state propaganda, it'll be hard to decouple what you've been fed your whole life as truth from geopolitical interests. Being an outsider I can see the bullshit in both governments, but the one I'm worried about is the one which has been belligerent since I was born and much before that.
    - asimpletune 5y ago
      Yeah, I mean you're basically saying if someone is so inclined they can approach any question from a perspective of bad faith, and never recognize any merit to a theoretically valid argument. I don't think that problem in general can be solved, even if we eliminated propaganda or otherwise. No one can make anyone agree with someone, even if they're right. That being said, I can still ask questions and say what I think and see what happens. I'm legitimately open to being wrong, in fact I'd love to be. Also, I'll just add this briefly, I didn't say anything about China. I just said it could be much worse. That could come from my own people (I'm from the USA).
      - stelonix 5y ago
titzer 5y ago
I have yet to see a feature-length film depicting Trump the way, e.g. Oliver Stone's "W" or Michael Moore's "Fahrenheit 9/11" depicted Bush. Trump's crimes are buried in a mountain of...other crimes, and the atmosphere is so thick with bullshit that investigating facts is to tempt a firehouse of political hate of epic proportions. I think certain topics are virtually suicide these days.
- BLKNSLVR 5y ago
  I think that's just a case of not enough time having passed. There's probably so much material to sift through.
Aunche 5y ago
One "feature" of democracy is that it doesn't matter whether people speak out against something. You just need 51% of people to agree with you, which can come from manufactured consent, and you can accomplish all the evil deeds you want all the same. If you try to do anything thar actually threatens the government's operations, you're treasonous and can be punished accordingly.
GordonS 5y ago
> US embarrassments, however, have movies made about them, as opposed to burying them as deeply as possible In some ways, I think this can actually serve to make people believe that real events were fictional - after all, movies are generally fictional or at least with a good dose of artistic license. I also must point out that some western governments will go to extreme lengths to bury bad actions as deeply as possible - if it wasn't for leakers, there are a whole host of Western war crimes and atrocities that would never have surfaced to the public. Even when they do, government and media propaganda machines are very efficient at convincing the general populace there is nothing to see here. We like to berate China and others for bad actions (rightly so), but in many respects Western governments are appalling hypocrites.

bobthechef 5y ago

[dead]

Veelox 5y ago

Hey, let me see if I can play this game! We have the same problem in the US. Certain "Equity loving" sects applaud disregarding national boarders, easy release of multiple time offenders, shouting down those who disagree, and the death of any vaccine protester.

BurningFrog 5y ago

Not at all the same problem, since those people do not control the government.