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> How does having cheap access to internet makes the quality of your life better Whoa that's a bit of a reach no? How about the ability to drive around with GP

> How does having cheap access to internet makes the quality of your life better Whoa that's a bit of a reach no? How about the ability to drive around with GPS? Or stay easily in touch with family living far away? Taking photos of your baby and having it stored on the cloud for free? The ability to learn almost anything for free? I'm not saying it's all great, it isn't, but we can't deny the benefits.

deadbunny 5y ago
> How about the ability to drive around with GPS? Maps, and the ability to read them. > Or stay easily in touch with family living far away? Phones, you know good old land lines > Taking photos of your baby and having it stored on the cloud for free? Why do I need physical photos stored in the cloud? > The ability to learn almost anything for free? Have ya heard of libraries? Does technology make these more convenient? Absolutely. Does it make them materially better? Not in my opinion.
- willcipriano 5y ago
  I'm fairly convinced that having to do things as you described was better for mental health as well. The always on, always connected lifestyle has big downsides.
  - montblanc 5y ago
    Driving with a map was better than how it is now? We're 10 years from having the damn thing drive itself for us. I suck at directions, I can imagine without the internet I would just avoid drives to places I wasn't familiar with and miss out on a bunch of things.
    - willcipriano 5y ago
      Yeah, you have to use a map but your kid only has to interact with the school bullies at school and you aren't temped to reach out to your college fling behind your wife's back beacuse you never see her bikini photos. Things have gotten better, but in lots of ways they have gotten worse.
      - montblanc 5y ago
        Have no argument with you there, I'm not saying it was all a win. Mental health problems seem to be increasing and the internet is part (but probably not all) of the problem.
    - jimbokun 5y ago
      You would discover you are better at directions than you think, if you need to find places without a phone and GPS.
    - basisword 5y ago
      You suck at directions because you rely on GPS. Navigating is a skill like any other.
- montblanc 5y ago
  > Maps, and the ability to read them. You basically need another passenger with you otherwise you'll have to do a lot of stops. I'd even say its a bit risky to drive like that. > Phones, you know good old land lines So you are saying having a high def video call with my brother living across the world, for free, is just like calling him in the 60s? It used to be crazy expensive to call abroad. And you couldn't see! > Why do I need physical photos stored in the cloud? Do you physically develop all your photos? If you do you are an exception to the rule, most people develop maybe 1% of their photos. > Have ya heard of libraries? Come on now. Try learning C++ in a library, good luck with that. Also, it's only the rich world that has high quality libraries accessible to everyone.
  - Sindisil 5y ago
    > You basically need another passenger with you otherwise you'll have to do a lot of stops. I'd even say its a bit risky to drive like that. Oh, FFS. Pre-GPS, I would look up my destination on a map or street atlas and learn the route. If a portion was especially tricky, I might jot down a few reminders, or pull over before that leg and review the map. Is GPS a wonderful convenience, especially with traffic monitoring & such? Hell yeah, I love it and wouldn't want to go back to maps without a damn good reason. But don't pretend it's somehow vital. > So you are saying having a high def video call with my brother living across the world, for free, is just like calling him in the 60s? The vast majority don't use video calling. Still, constantly available communication is, IMO, a huge net positive. > Do you physically develop all your photos? That was obviously how it worked before ubiquitous digital cameras. Photo situation is better today, though I might argue that the low marginal cost of each photo leads to people robbing themselves of vivid memories of what they're seen. There's some research that supports that idea, though I don't have a reference immediately on hand. > Come on now. Try learning C++ in a library, good luck with that. That's exactly what I did. Checked the ARM out of the library. Eventually bought my own copy when I decided it was worth it. As much as I love the wealth of information available on the net, I sometimes miss how good libraries used to be.
  - NoGravitas 5y ago
    So many misunderstandings in here, probably because you're too young to have done any of these things. (Source: I am pushing 50.) Driving with maps doesn't require another passenger or a lot of stops, generally. You plan your route with the map before starting out, and if necessary write the turns on a piece of note paper. You may need to stop and consult the map if you miss a turn. I'll grant that GPS is more convenient, but maps worked better than you think they did. Phones vs. video calls, I'll mostly grant you. Long distance calls were expensive, and video gives you facial and body language cues. On the other hand, audio quality was a lot higher when everyone was on land lines, so you didn't need those cues as much to make up for indistinct audio. Physical photos: before 2000 or so, everyone developed all of their photos. Most cameras were film, then. Even when digital cameras came into widespread use, it was common to print the best pictures. People really only started not developing photos when smartphones became common. Libraries: I learned C from a couple of textbooks, and C++ (such as it was in 1993) from a book published by the company that sold me the compiler. All of these would have been available in a reasonably sized library, or in a small library via interlibrary loan.
- prepend 5y ago
  Have you traveled using maps and GPS? They are very different, and not even comparable. It seems to me like comparing a shovel to a ditch digging machine. It is possible to navigate using maps. But not practical for the mass audience of GPS who can’t use maps. And impossible for the industries that require GPS (uber types). Technology is a multiplier that increases the returns on things my removing labor and letting it focus on other, more productive things. Similarly, arguing that the internet isn’t 1000x easier to learn things because libraries exist is odd to me. Have you ever tried to use a book in a library to find that it’s checked out? Or not available at all. Inter library loans used to take 30 days, if I had access to a good library, and now that information is available to me for free. This doesn’t mean the world is perfect or that we don’t still have so much work to do. But it’s just an odd perspective that seems unmoored from reality, since these things can be objectively measured.
  - anotherman554 5y ago
    You believe it's not practical to navigate without a GPS? Watch an old movie-- like the Graduate, or the funny comedy it's a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad world, people had maps and asked for directions at gas stations.
    - ghaff 5y ago
      There used to be a whole trope of men (especially) not wanting to stop and ask for directions. I'm sure there are younger people who would watch a movie or a TV show where this happens and go "Huh????" There are also any number of plot points that revolve around not being able to reach someone that also wouldn't make a lot of sense in general today.
  - deadbunny 5y ago
    Am I in some kind of weird HN bubble where no-one has ever used a physical map? I've travelled extensively pre-turn by turn navigation using physical maps, i spent a year motorcycling across mainland Europe in my early 20's using nothing but physical maps, I did the same but in the US during the early-mid 2000's. Was it as easy as sticking a zip code into a magic box and having it tell me where to go and when to take a turn? Probably not. But it wasn't much more complicated because I know how to read maps and can remember things for more than 10 seconds.
mercy_dude 5y ago
I did a cross country drive back in 2008 without GPS and it was great. In fact I would argue by removing all the components of randomness out of your life, you make yourself fragile and your susceptibility to risks much worse. As an example, I lived in NY for three years and recently when I went there at my cousins place (who is GenZ) our batteries died and we had to walk our way to subway. Despite living there all his life my cousin was having a hard time finding the subway station in Astoria (because he just uses the Map) whereas I could remember from my vague memories of alleys and shops to find out rather quickly.Or how about driving into that diner you have never been instead of looking at Yelp or Google review and finding the best reviewed store? You deny yourself simple pleasures like that when you rely too much on Google or other technologies. I am not saying they don’t have their places but saying without them our quality of life would decline is a fallacy. I would also argue writing letters and occasional/less frequent long formed phone calls were much better than frequent short form SMS or DMs which most of the time come off as devoid of same level of care or efforts. Keeping in touch with people we know have become such a low effort thing, try writing a letter or making a phone call next time instead of texting and realize how much more effort it required.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
jimbokun 5y ago
> Or stay easily in touch with family living far away? The flip side is that technology has made it more likely to not live near friends and family, and the accompanying challenges for mental health.

deadbunny 5y ago

> How about the ability to drive around with GPS? Maps, and the ability to read them. > Or stay easily in touch with family living far away? Phones, you know good old land lines > Taking photos of your baby and having it stored on the cloud for free? Why do I need physical photos stored in the cloud? > The ability to learn almost anything for free? Have ya heard of libraries? Does technology make these more convenient? Absolutely. Does it make them materially better? Not in my opinion.

willcipriano 5y ago
I'm fairly convinced that having to do things as you described was better for mental health as well. The always on, always connected lifestyle has big downsides.
- montblanc 5y ago
  Driving with a map was better than how it is now? We're 10 years from having the damn thing drive itself for us. I suck at directions, I can imagine without the internet I would just avoid drives to places I wasn't familiar with and miss out on a bunch of things.
  - willcipriano 5y ago
    Yeah, you have to use a map but your kid only has to interact with the school bullies at school and you aren't temped to reach out to your college fling behind your wife's back beacuse you never see her bikini photos. Things have gotten better, but in lots of ways they have gotten worse.
    - montblanc 5y ago
      Have no argument with you there, I'm not saying it was all a win. Mental health problems seem to be increasing and the internet is part (but probably not all) of the problem.
  - jimbokun 5y ago
    You would discover you are better at directions than you think, if you need to find places without a phone and GPS.
  - basisword 5y ago
    You suck at directions because you rely on GPS. Navigating is a skill like any other.
montblanc 5y ago
> Maps, and the ability to read them. You basically need another passenger with you otherwise you'll have to do a lot of stops. I'd even say its a bit risky to drive like that. > Phones, you know good old land lines So you are saying having a high def video call with my brother living across the world, for free, is just like calling him in the 60s? It used to be crazy expensive to call abroad. And you couldn't see! > Why do I need physical photos stored in the cloud? Do you physically develop all your photos? If you do you are an exception to the rule, most people develop maybe 1% of their photos. > Have ya heard of libraries? Come on now. Try learning C++ in a library, good luck with that. Also, it's only the rich world that has high quality libraries accessible to everyone.
- Sindisil 5y ago
  > You basically need another passenger with you otherwise you'll have to do a lot of stops. I'd even say its a bit risky to drive like that. Oh, FFS. Pre-GPS, I would look up my destination on a map or street atlas and learn the route. If a portion was especially tricky, I might jot down a few reminders, or pull over before that leg and review the map. Is GPS a wonderful convenience, especially with traffic monitoring & such? Hell yeah, I love it and wouldn't want to go back to maps without a damn good reason. But don't pretend it's somehow vital. > So you are saying having a high def video call with my brother living across the world, for free, is just like calling him in the 60s? The vast majority don't use video calling. Still, constantly available communication is, IMO, a huge net positive. > Do you physically develop all your photos? That was obviously how it worked before ubiquitous digital cameras. Photo situation is better today, though I might argue that the low marginal cost of each photo leads to people robbing themselves of vivid memories of what they're seen. There's some research that supports that idea, though I don't have a reference immediately on hand. > Come on now. Try learning C++ in a library, good luck with that. That's exactly what I did. Checked the ARM out of the library. Eventually bought my own copy when I decided it was worth it. As much as I love the wealth of information available on the net, I sometimes miss how good libraries used to be.
- NoGravitas 5y ago
  So many misunderstandings in here, probably because you're too young to have done any of these things. (Source: I am pushing 50.) Driving with maps doesn't require another passenger or a lot of stops, generally. You plan your route with the map before starting out, and if necessary write the turns on a piece of note paper. You may need to stop and consult the map if you miss a turn. I'll grant that GPS is more convenient, but maps worked better than you think they did. Phones vs. video calls, I'll mostly grant you. Long distance calls were expensive, and video gives you facial and body language cues. On the other hand, audio quality was a lot higher when everyone was on land lines, so you didn't need those cues as much to make up for indistinct audio. Physical photos: before 2000 or so, everyone developed all of their photos. Most cameras were film, then. Even when digital cameras came into widespread use, it was common to print the best pictures. People really only started not developing photos when smartphones became common. Libraries: I learned C from a couple of textbooks, and C++ (such as it was in 1993) from a book published by the company that sold me the compiler. All of these would have been available in a reasonably sized library, or in a small library via interlibrary loan.
prepend 5y ago
Have you traveled using maps and GPS? They are very different, and not even comparable. It seems to me like comparing a shovel to a ditch digging machine. It is possible to navigate using maps. But not practical for the mass audience of GPS who can’t use maps. And impossible for the industries that require GPS (uber types). Technology is a multiplier that increases the returns on things my removing labor and letting it focus on other, more productive things. Similarly, arguing that the internet isn’t 1000x easier to learn things because libraries exist is odd to me. Have you ever tried to use a book in a library to find that it’s checked out? Or not available at all. Inter library loans used to take 30 days, if I had access to a good library, and now that information is available to me for free. This doesn’t mean the world is perfect or that we don’t still have so much work to do. But it’s just an odd perspective that seems unmoored from reality, since these things can be objectively measured.
- anotherman554 5y ago
  You believe it's not practical to navigate without a GPS? Watch an old movie-- like the Graduate, or the funny comedy it's a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad world, people had maps and asked for directions at gas stations.
  - ghaff 5y ago
    There used to be a whole trope of men (especially) not wanting to stop and ask for directions. I'm sure there are younger people who would watch a movie or a TV show where this happens and go "Huh????" There are also any number of plot points that revolve around not being able to reach someone that also wouldn't make a lot of sense in general today.
- deadbunny 5y ago
  Am I in some kind of weird HN bubble where no-one has ever used a physical map? I've travelled extensively pre-turn by turn navigation using physical maps, i spent a year motorcycling across mainland Europe in my early 20's using nothing but physical maps, I did the same but in the US during the early-mid 2000's. Was it as easy as sticking a zip code into a magic box and having it tell me where to go and when to take a turn? Probably not. But it wasn't much more complicated because I know how to read maps and can remember things for more than 10 seconds.

mercy_dude 5y ago

I did a cross country drive back in 2008 without GPS and it was great. In fact I would argue by removing all the components of randomness out of your life, you make yourself fragile and your susceptibility to risks much worse. As an example, I lived in NY for three years and recently when I went there at my cousins place (who is GenZ) our batteries died and we had to walk our way to subway. Despite living there all his life my cousin was having a hard time finding the subway station in Astoria (because he just uses the Map) whereas I could remember from my vague memories of alleys and shops to find out rather quickly.Or how about driving into that diner you have never been instead of looking at Yelp or Google review and finding the best reviewed store? You deny yourself simple pleasures like that when you rely too much on Google or other technologies. I am not saying they don’t have their places but saying without them our quality of life would decline is a fallacy. I would also argue writing letters and occasional/less frequent long formed phone calls were much better than frequent short form SMS or DMs which most of the time come off as devoid of same level of care or efforts. Keeping in touch with people we know have become such a low effort thing, try writing a letter or making a phone call next time instead of texting and realize how much more effort it required.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

jimbokun 5y ago

> Or stay easily in touch with family living far away? The flip side is that technology has made it more likely to not live near friends and family, and the accompanying challenges for mental health.