5 ms·

It's not the only way. They want you to think it is. Don't let them break you.

by najqh 5y ago

BoorishBears 5y ago
ha that's a hoot. What a horrible injustice for an HR team to try and bring some diversity to a company that mostly hired white males. If white males weren't so busy looking for drinking buddies under the guise of a "culture fit" for the last 2 decades this wouldn't be a thing. Diversity stats for our industry are a boondoggle, most of the diversity is concentrated in a few large companies, and it takes the bare minimum of exposure to tech to realize this.
- raxxorrax 5y ago
  You are just a racist and sexist. The problem is you, not other people.
  - BoorishBears 5y ago
    I'm racist and sexist (against myself) for accurately pointing out the trend where a white male dominated industry normalized drinking in the office and how that affected their definition of "culture"? https://tech.co/news/tech-workplace-drinking-culture-2019-02 https://tech.co/news/tech-workplace-drinking-culture-2019-02 Or are you just insecure about your own biases.
    - Zababa 5y ago
      I don't have an opinion on either side of this debate, but your link is based on a "survey with more than 1000 responders" that seems to be about the current state of things. It also doesn't talk about volume, just drinking as if every drinking is the same. I don't think it supports your claims.
      - BoorishBears 5y ago
        It's not supporting my claims without asking critical thinking of the reader, that's a tough ask I know... There are more studies than you could ask for showing we hire people we'd like to hang out with: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/11/121129093008.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/11/121129093008.h... Alcohol is one thing that caught traction in the "tech bro ecosystem". So put two and two together and what do you get? https://www.wired.com/2016/12/techs-alcohol-soaked-culture-isnt-party-everybody/ https://www.wired.com/2016/12/techs-alcohol-soaked-culture-i... https://www.softwareiseasypeoplearehard.com/does-the-tech-industry-has-a-drinking-problem/ https://www.softwareiseasypeoplearehard.com/does-the-tech-in... https://www.forbes.com/sites/csr/2011/03/18/drinking-at-work-office-perk-or-employee-right/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/csr/2011/03/18/drinking-at-work... https://technical.ly/philly/2016/05/02/alcohol-tech-events/ https://technical.ly/philly/2016/05/02/alcohol-tech-events/ https://www.teamgather.co/blog/ping-pong-tables-and-beer-kegs https://www.teamgather.co/blog/ping-pong-tables-and-beer-keg... https://www.huntonlaborblog.com/2019/01/articles/employment-policies/companies-rethinking-approach-alcohol-workplace/ https://www.huntonlaborblog.com/2019/01/articles/employment-... HN is the only place people would actually pretend alcohol is not part of the tech-bro persona lol. Can't admit there's a problem right? At least in the last few years people have realized it's a bad idea. All those pesky HR department and their "inclusion" and "drinking culture shouldn't replace a work culture" noise amiright?
        Zababa 5y ago
        I've never worked in the US, and don't live there. I don't think asking for more evidence than a comment and a survey of 1000 people in a sector at least a million of people is a display of a lack of critical thinking. In fact I'd say it's quite the opposite. You talked about the last 2 decades, yet nothing in the article talked about that too. The articles you linked there are more substential. I personally live in France. I don't know about the tech industry as a whole, but drinking is the was young adults socialize. I personally don't drink much, so I know how it feels to have people pressuring you to drink more every time you're at a social event. I understand that it's the internet, that you don't know me and that you probably faced plenty of people pretending to be neutral while they were trying to refute what you said, but this wasn't the case here.
    - yjftsjthsd-h 5y ago
      > Or are you just insecure about your own biases. --- > Be kind. Don't be snarky. Have curious conversation; don't cross-examine. Please don't fulminate. Please don't sneer, including at the rest of the community. > Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive. > When disagreeing, please reply to the argument instead of calling names. "That is idiotic; 1 + 1 is 2, not 3" can be shortened to "1 + 1 is 2, not 3." - https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
      - BoorishBears 5y ago
        This would be a great copy pasta if you didn't have to purposely ignore the entire rest if the comment to make it work. And it's not an insult, people are clearly insecure about their biases, even you for being unable to address a very clear point and immediately taking solace in playing a wannabe mod to somehow invalidate the actual point. You have biases, I have biases. We all have biases. Some people hear one guy give their career history with one accent, they hear another guy give it to you with a country twang, and they interpret it differently. They see one guy who's real old and one guy who looks 18 say the same thing and they subtly interpret differently. That doesn't make you racist or ageist it makes you human. We're not robots raised in a vacuum and covered in Teflon so we never let biases from a million sources from upbringing to media rub off on us. - This incredible insecurity that white males (amongst others, but most openly expressed due to the fear the tech industry is now oppressing them) have picked up about ever admitting they're not robots is infuriating as a black man. Because the moment you bury your head in the sand like this, you're almost deciding "I will continue to be biased and make no attempt whatsoever to fix it" Like fuck, you're actually going to pretend there are no candidates at all that you maybe get a little excited about because you feel like you connect with them on a personal level in a way that benefits from having a shared culture and is maybe not so helped by being from different cultures??? Because if you are I can tell you it's bullshit:https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/11/121129093008.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/11/121129093008.h... What a person actually interested in dealing with this problem does is accept that, yup I did end up shooting the shit with this candidate, that did improve my image of them a tiny bit, let me look at my feedback again and remove anything that was influenced by that. 9 times out if 10 HR is trying to do this for people and suddenly they act like the tech industry is now built on affirmative action, white men are unable to get ahead (lol) and any non-white-male with a heartbeat is getting hired for walking through the door.
    - raxxorrax 5y ago
      Not my experience and I doubt this is true in any way. Maybe young startups by young founders, but even there I have never seen it. I am not from California and not even the US, but demographics of IT looks pretty similar in many countries. I would expect such behavior in some cases in the established industry branches and large corporations. But that is nepotism and gender or race does not play a role in the slightest.
      - BoorishBears 5y ago
        I don't even know how this is up for debate! It is universally known people are biased to hire people they'd like to spend time with: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/11/121129093008.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/11/121129093008.h... > > I am not from California and not even the US Oh so you're not from the country in question with these policies? The whole "tech bro" persona did not come into existence for no reason.
- Jensson 5y ago
  > What a horrible injustice for an HR team to try and bring some diversity to a company that mostly hired white males. White people are under represented at tech companies in USA. Only Asians are over represented. The only reason to discriminate against white people there is that you hate white people. White people are less under represented than black people, true, but white people are still under represented.
  - BoorishBears 5y ago
    You started with a lie, wonderful wonderful: https://www.eeoc.gov/special-report/diversity-high-tech https://www.eeoc.gov/special-report/diversity-high-tech > Compared to overall private industry, the high tech sector employed a larger share of whites (63.5 percent to 68.5 percent), Asian Americans (5.8 percent to 14 percent) and men (52 percent to 64 percent), and a smaller share of African Americans (14.4 percent to 7.4 percent), Hispanics (13.9 percent to 8 percent), and women (48 percent to 36 percent). But I'll play ball, I'm sure you can show me a stat that says white people are underrepresented by a tiny amount by changing the scope, maybe by considering worse paying jobs where white people are definitely underrepresented! That will totally make your point... right? White people are not getting enough of the worst jobs, only the best ones! Kind of why I said industry wide stats are useless though. Of course, also link it so I can show how that same source probably shows blacks and hispanics as being even more underrepresented than mine and I can laugh in your face for acting like white people are "underrepresented" in tech because there's like a 90% correlation to population size instead of 100%. - But actually I mean let's roll with your lie for a second! Do you think, just maybe, white people are less likely to be under represented at the companies that are working hardest to hire non-white-males? Like a company is all-hands-on-deck trying to get some marginalized people working there, that's because...??? Like who... who do you think is currently making up most of the org? - Again... broad industry stats about diversity are utter bullshit. Don't take my word for it, apply some critical thinking. Do you think white males are underrepresented more or less as you climb the ladder? https://www.thisdot.co/blog/diversity-statistics-in-tech-a-deeper-look-and-a-case-study https://www.thisdot.co/blog/diversity-statistics-in-tech-a-d... You can look at that first diagram and you tell me that white males are being discriminated against? Like, how out if touch with reality are you? We're in an industry where the only reason there's any underrepresentation of whites is because companies were stuffing minorities into the worst paying roles and bringing over H1B1s to underpay them whenever they can. The moment HR tries to change the status quo the white males start crying racism. Cry on brother.

It's not the only way. They want you to think it is. Don't let them break you.

by najqh 5y ago

It's not the only way. They want you to think it is. Don't let them break you.

ha that's a hoot. What a horrible injustice for an HR team to try and bring some diversity to a company that mostly hired white males. If white males weren't so busy looking for drinking buddies under the guise of a "culture fit" for the last 2 decades this wouldn't be a thing. Diversity stats for our industry are a boondoggle, most of the diversity is concentrated in a few large companies, and it takes the bare minimum of exposure to tech to realize this.

raxxorrax 5y ago
You are just a racist and sexist. The problem is you, not other people.
- BoorishBears 5y ago
  I'm racist and sexist (against myself) for accurately pointing out the trend where a white male dominated industry normalized drinking in the office and how that affected their definition of "culture"? https://tech.co/news/tech-workplace-drinking-culture-2019-02 https://tech.co/news/tech-workplace-drinking-culture-2019-02 Or are you just insecure about your own biases.
  - Zababa 5y ago
    I don't have an opinion on either side of this debate, but your link is based on a "survey with more than 1000 responders" that seems to be about the current state of things. It also doesn't talk about volume, just drinking as if every drinking is the same. I don't think it supports your claims.
    - BoorishBears 5y ago
      It's not supporting my claims without asking critical thinking of the reader, that's a tough ask I know... There are more studies than you could ask for showing we hire people we'd like to hang out with: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/11/121129093008.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/11/121129093008.h... Alcohol is one thing that caught traction in the "tech bro ecosystem". So put two and two together and what do you get? https://www.wired.com/2016/12/techs-alcohol-soaked-culture-isnt-party-everybody/ https://www.wired.com/2016/12/techs-alcohol-soaked-culture-i... https://www.softwareiseasypeoplearehard.com/does-the-tech-industry-has-a-drinking-problem/ https://www.softwareiseasypeoplearehard.com/does-the-tech-in... https://www.forbes.com/sites/csr/2011/03/18/drinking-at-work-office-perk-or-employee-right/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/csr/2011/03/18/drinking-at-work... https://technical.ly/philly/2016/05/02/alcohol-tech-events/ https://technical.ly/philly/2016/05/02/alcohol-tech-events/ https://www.teamgather.co/blog/ping-pong-tables-and-beer-kegs https://www.teamgather.co/blog/ping-pong-tables-and-beer-keg... https://www.huntonlaborblog.com/2019/01/articles/employment-policies/companies-rethinking-approach-alcohol-workplace/ https://www.huntonlaborblog.com/2019/01/articles/employment-... HN is the only place people would actually pretend alcohol is not part of the tech-bro persona lol. Can't admit there's a problem right? At least in the last few years people have realized it's a bad idea. All those pesky HR department and their "inclusion" and "drinking culture shouldn't replace a work culture" noise amiright?
      - Zababa 5y ago
        I've never worked in the US, and don't live there. I don't think asking for more evidence than a comment and a survey of 1000 people in a sector at least a million of people is a display of a lack of critical thinking. In fact I'd say it's quite the opposite. You talked about the last 2 decades, yet nothing in the article talked about that too. The articles you linked there are more substential. I personally live in France. I don't know about the tech industry as a whole, but drinking is the was young adults socialize. I personally don't drink much, so I know how it feels to have people pressuring you to drink more every time you're at a social event. I understand that it's the internet, that you don't know me and that you probably faced plenty of people pretending to be neutral while they were trying to refute what you said, but this wasn't the case here.
  - yjftsjthsd-h 5y ago
    > Or are you just insecure about your own biases. --- > Be kind. Don't be snarky. Have curious conversation; don't cross-examine. Please don't fulminate. Please don't sneer, including at the rest of the community. > Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive. > When disagreeing, please reply to the argument instead of calling names. "That is idiotic; 1 + 1 is 2, not 3" can be shortened to "1 + 1 is 2, not 3." - https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
    - BoorishBears 5y ago
      This would be a great copy pasta if you didn't have to purposely ignore the entire rest if the comment to make it work. And it's not an insult, people are clearly insecure about their biases, even you for being unable to address a very clear point and immediately taking solace in playing a wannabe mod to somehow invalidate the actual point. You have biases, I have biases. We all have biases. Some people hear one guy give their career history with one accent, they hear another guy give it to you with a country twang, and they interpret it differently. They see one guy who's real old and one guy who looks 18 say the same thing and they subtly interpret differently. That doesn't make you racist or ageist it makes you human. We're not robots raised in a vacuum and covered in Teflon so we never let biases from a million sources from upbringing to media rub off on us. - This incredible insecurity that white males (amongst others, but most openly expressed due to the fear the tech industry is now oppressing them) have picked up about ever admitting they're not robots is infuriating as a black man. Because the moment you bury your head in the sand like this, you're almost deciding "I will continue to be biased and make no attempt whatsoever to fix it" Like fuck, you're actually going to pretend there are no candidates at all that you maybe get a little excited about because you feel like you connect with them on a personal level in a way that benefits from having a shared culture and is maybe not so helped by being from different cultures??? Because if you are I can tell you it's bullshit:https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/11/121129093008.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/11/121129093008.h... What a person actually interested in dealing with this problem does is accept that, yup I did end up shooting the shit with this candidate, that did improve my image of them a tiny bit, let me look at my feedback again and remove anything that was influenced by that. 9 times out if 10 HR is trying to do this for people and suddenly they act like the tech industry is now built on affirmative action, white men are unable to get ahead (lol) and any non-white-male with a heartbeat is getting hired for walking through the door.
  - raxxorrax 5y ago
    Not my experience and I doubt this is true in any way. Maybe young startups by young founders, but even there I have never seen it. I am not from California and not even the US, but demographics of IT looks pretty similar in many countries. I would expect such behavior in some cases in the established industry branches and large corporations. But that is nepotism and gender or race does not play a role in the slightest.
    - BoorishBears 5y ago
      I don't even know how this is up for debate! It is universally known people are biased to hire people they'd like to spend time with: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/11/121129093008.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/11/121129093008.h... > > I am not from California and not even the US Oh so you're not from the country in question with these policies? The whole "tech bro" persona did not come into existence for no reason.
Jensson 5y ago
> What a horrible injustice for an HR team to try and bring some diversity to a company that mostly hired white males. White people are under represented at tech companies in USA. Only Asians are over represented. The only reason to discriminate against white people there is that you hate white people. White people are less under represented than black people, true, but white people are still under represented.
- BoorishBears 5y ago
  You started with a lie, wonderful wonderful: https://www.eeoc.gov/special-report/diversity-high-tech https://www.eeoc.gov/special-report/diversity-high-tech > Compared to overall private industry, the high tech sector employed a larger share of whites (63.5 percent to 68.5 percent), Asian Americans (5.8 percent to 14 percent) and men (52 percent to 64 percent), and a smaller share of African Americans (14.4 percent to 7.4 percent), Hispanics (13.9 percent to 8 percent), and women (48 percent to 36 percent). But I'll play ball, I'm sure you can show me a stat that says white people are underrepresented by a tiny amount by changing the scope, maybe by considering worse paying jobs where white people are definitely underrepresented! That will totally make your point... right? White people are not getting enough of the worst jobs, only the best ones! Kind of why I said industry wide stats are useless though. Of course, also link it so I can show how that same source probably shows blacks and hispanics as being even more underrepresented than mine and I can laugh in your face for acting like white people are "underrepresented" in tech because there's like a 90% correlation to population size instead of 100%. - But actually I mean let's roll with your lie for a second! Do you think, just maybe, white people are less likely to be under represented at the companies that are working hardest to hire non-white-males? Like a company is all-hands-on-deck trying to get some marginalized people working there, that's because...??? Like who... who do you think is currently making up most of the org? - Again... broad industry stats about diversity are utter bullshit. Don't take my word for it, apply some critical thinking. Do you think white males are underrepresented more or less as you climb the ladder? https://www.thisdot.co/blog/diversity-statistics-in-tech-a-deeper-look-and-a-case-study https://www.thisdot.co/blog/diversity-statistics-in-tech-a-d... You can look at that first diagram and you tell me that white males are being discriminated against? Like, how out if touch with reality are you? We're in an industry where the only reason there's any underrepresentation of whites is because companies were stuffing minorities into the worst paying roles and bringing over H1B1s to underpay them whenever they can. The moment HR tries to change the status quo the white males start crying racism. Cry on brother.