5 ms·

That's a country specific problem, not a Europe problem. I don't mean just Brexit for the UK, either. What does happen in Europe is far-right parties get a pla

by Jenk 5y ago

That's a country specific problem, not a Europe problem. I don't mean just Brexit for the UK, either. What does happen in Europe is far-right parties get a platform to speak on. The big continental countries have an election process that lets everyone be heard, and the far-right get heard plenty - allowing the electorate to smell their bullshit. In the UK we don't have such elections. We have a two horse race, and token efforts given to fringe parties, and state media that are "maintaining balance" by constantly inviting candidates who haven't been elected after 8 attempts to frequently tout their bullshit (and critically without being challenged on any of it). The far-right thrive here because they are unchecked, unquestioned, and ultimately not properly exposed. They relish in the "underdog", "cancelled", and/or "repressed" argument to win votes. Also when our leading party receives £160k from the wives of former Russian minsiters to play tennis with the prime minister[0] you have to wonder who is really pulling the strings. [0]: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-28158479 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-28158479

pydry 5y ago
Brexit happened because a third party tore chunks out of the voting base of one of those two horses.
- Jenk 5y ago
  Yes, as a result of what I said above. Farage and goons were unchecked. They rarely, if ever, had their bullshit fact checked by anyone that interviewed them. Dominic Cummings, an extreme libertarian[0], was in bed with various far-right (and also libertarian) people from the west, took office as the Special Advisor to the Prime Minister after riding the Brexit wave to success. A role that meant he had the power, without the need to be elected. He kicked everyone out that didn't agree with him, and/or had their own opinion(s). His one goal was to completely reform (read: dismantle) government. Unluckily for him, COVID came and revealed just what a cluster of dickheads he had left in government. Then he managed to get caught going on a 300 mile road trip after testing positive, including a trip to a Castle on his wife's birthday. The resulting mess of media coverage left the government with little choice but to "fire" him, but even that was a shitshow that took 6 months longer than it should have. Now we are left with cabinet of useless, and I mean useless, puppets with no puppet master. Side note: They (the right) also had clandestine social media campaigns. Cambridge Analytica's main purpose wasn't to identify who to send the bullshit to, it was to identify who to keep the bullshit from so that they wouldn't be challenged. [0]: https://lloydhardy.com/news/Why_Brexit_Happened/ https://lloydhardy.com/news/Why_Brexit_Happened/
  - chimprich 5y ago
    I disagree with Cummings on a lot of issues (e.g. Brexit, the importance of international law, etc.), but I don't recognise that description of him. He's certainly not an extreme libertarian. By all accounts, during the pandemic response, he was very much in favour of government intervention. Johnson was far more laissez-faire, even to a ridiculous degree. I actually think Cummings is an interesting guy and worth listening to, but I don't think he should be anywhere near the levers of power.
    - pydry 5y ago
      He's got the mindset of a junior developer. He idolizes valley culture and wants to tear everything down and rebuild from scratch. His ideas are kind of staid and recycled. He's smarter than Boris or most of the cabinet for sure but that isnt saying much. Ultimately he rode a wave of mass discontent and somehow managed to fuck it up and achieve nothing while at the peak of his career when even the prime minister thought thought the sun shone out of his arse. He wasnt some genius mastermind.
toyg 5y ago
You have equivalents of Farage in any EU country these days, believe me. And yes, they are often funded by comrade Vlad at the moment, but they started their rise well before he became a factor. > allowing the electorate to smell their bullshit. I wish I was as optimistic as you. In Italy and France, far-right views are now solidly held by roughly a third of the electorate, year-in year-out. Party names and figureheads can change, but the message stays the same. In Germany it's a bit better, but then you have Austria and the Visegrad block, where they command relatively solid majorities.
- Jenk 5y ago
  > I wish I was as optimistic as you. I think if everything is laid bare - facts are proven to be facts, and lies are exposed as lies - yet the electorate _still_ vote it in, then that's fair. I'll emigrate. But the biggest con about Brexit (as a particular example) is that _everything_ from the Leave campaign was bullshit and not one claim, pledge, or promise from the Leave "side" was ever checked, questioned, or since held to account and, in my opinion, it is _that_ which stinks the worst.
guerrilla 5y ago
> allowing the electorate to smell their bullshit. You need to look at the numbers. Far-right parties are growing everywhere in Europe... One is nearly the largest party in Sweden.
- Jenk 5y ago
  I mean.. as long as it's a fair election and not a campaign of lies, maybe the problem isn't the political parties and actually, people just really want the right to reign?
  - guerrilla 5y ago
    > people just really want the right to reign Many people do. I see this as a dangerous problem. Weimar Germany also really wanted the right to reign and it didn't turn out well. The party here was founded in part by two literal Nazis and a bunch of skinheads. I don't really care what people want when they want them to rule.
    - Jenk 5y ago
      I'm caught in a (philosophical?) dillemna though: I don't want the right to rise to power because I fear for the future of freedom, but I would be repressing freedom by ostracising/excluding the right from electoral eligibility. Is technocracy the answer? Have some kind of determinable objective truth rule? How do we mitigate for failure to identify the objective truth in that case? .. and on continues the shower thought. Overall I'm worried, though. There are many hallmarks about the current political climate that have been present in the not-that-long-before any major conflict in history. I really, honestly, am worried there will be some large conflict in our lifetime.
      - guerrilla 5y ago
        I think your comment is insightful but I don't have an answers to any of this. I just wish that stuff was what we were trying to figure out of a society rather than the trash going on these days. I think you're right that we could definitely be on the eve of something about to happen, especially combining those observations with recent geopolitical updates.

by Jenk 5y ago

pydry 5y ago

Brexit happened because a third party tore chunks out of the voting base of one of those two horses.

Jenk 5y ago
Yes, as a result of what I said above. Farage and goons were unchecked. They rarely, if ever, had their bullshit fact checked by anyone that interviewed them. Dominic Cummings, an extreme libertarian[0], was in bed with various far-right (and also libertarian) people from the west, took office as the Special Advisor to the Prime Minister after riding the Brexit wave to success. A role that meant he had the power, without the need to be elected. He kicked everyone out that didn't agree with him, and/or had their own opinion(s). His one goal was to completely reform (read: dismantle) government. Unluckily for him, COVID came and revealed just what a cluster of dickheads he had left in government. Then he managed to get caught going on a 300 mile road trip after testing positive, including a trip to a Castle on his wife's birthday. The resulting mess of media coverage left the government with little choice but to "fire" him, but even that was a shitshow that took 6 months longer than it should have. Now we are left with cabinet of useless, and I mean useless, puppets with no puppet master. Side note: They (the right) also had clandestine social media campaigns. Cambridge Analytica's main purpose wasn't to identify who to send the bullshit to, it was to identify who to keep the bullshit from so that they wouldn't be challenged. [0]: https://lloydhardy.com/news/Why_Brexit_Happened/ https://lloydhardy.com/news/Why_Brexit_Happened/
- chimprich 5y ago
  I disagree with Cummings on a lot of issues (e.g. Brexit, the importance of international law, etc.), but I don't recognise that description of him. He's certainly not an extreme libertarian. By all accounts, during the pandemic response, he was very much in favour of government intervention. Johnson was far more laissez-faire, even to a ridiculous degree. I actually think Cummings is an interesting guy and worth listening to, but I don't think he should be anywhere near the levers of power.
  - pydry 5y ago
    He's got the mindset of a junior developer. He idolizes valley culture and wants to tear everything down and rebuild from scratch. His ideas are kind of staid and recycled. He's smarter than Boris or most of the cabinet for sure but that isnt saying much. Ultimately he rode a wave of mass discontent and somehow managed to fuck it up and achieve nothing while at the peak of his career when even the prime minister thought thought the sun shone out of his arse. He wasnt some genius mastermind.

toyg 5y ago

You have equivalents of Farage in any EU country these days, believe me. And yes, they are often funded by comrade Vlad at the moment, but they started their rise well before he became a factor. > allowing the electorate to smell their bullshit. I wish I was as optimistic as you. In Italy and France, far-right views are now solidly held by roughly a third of the electorate, year-in year-out. Party names and figureheads can change, but the message stays the same. In Germany it's a bit better, but then you have Austria and the Visegrad block, where they command relatively solid majorities.

Jenk 5y ago
> I wish I was as optimistic as you. I think if everything is laid bare - facts are proven to be facts, and lies are exposed as lies - yet the electorate _still_ vote it in, then that's fair. I'll emigrate. But the biggest con about Brexit (as a particular example) is that _everything_ from the Leave campaign was bullshit and not one claim, pledge, or promise from the Leave "side" was ever checked, questioned, or since held to account and, in my opinion, it is _that_ which stinks the worst.

guerrilla 5y ago

> allowing the electorate to smell their bullshit. You need to look at the numbers. Far-right parties are growing everywhere in Europe... One is nearly the largest party in Sweden.

Jenk 5y ago
I mean.. as long as it's a fair election and not a campaign of lies, maybe the problem isn't the political parties and actually, people just really want the right to reign?
- guerrilla 5y ago
  > people just really want the right to reign Many people do. I see this as a dangerous problem. Weimar Germany also really wanted the right to reign and it didn't turn out well. The party here was founded in part by two literal Nazis and a bunch of skinheads. I don't really care what people want when they want them to rule.
  - Jenk 5y ago
    I'm caught in a (philosophical?) dillemna though: I don't want the right to rise to power because I fear for the future of freedom, but I would be repressing freedom by ostracising/excluding the right from electoral eligibility. Is technocracy the answer? Have some kind of determinable objective truth rule? How do we mitigate for failure to identify the objective truth in that case? .. and on continues the shower thought. Overall I'm worried, though. There are many hallmarks about the current political climate that have been present in the not-that-long-before any major conflict in history. I really, honestly, am worried there will be some large conflict in our lifetime.
    - guerrilla 5y ago
      I think your comment is insightful but I don't have an answers to any of this. I just wish that stuff was what we were trying to figure out of a society rather than the trash going on these days. I think you're right that we could definitely be on the eve of something about to happen, especially combining those observations with recent geopolitical updates.