9 ms·

> As a non-American, it's heartbreaking to see efforts to unify the underclass completely derailed by this ridiculous race war. Yeah, well, it's not like thing

by toyg 5y ago

> As a non-American, it's heartbreaking to see efforts to unify the underclass completely derailed by this ridiculous race war. Yeah, well, it's not like things are much better in Europe. Far-right parties are now mainstream in most major EU countries, and their n.1 priority is exactly the same. Signed, a Brexit victim.

hectord 5y ago
Please don't generalize. Far-right parties are not mainstream everywhere. Europe is complex, as much as the US. The issue with this way of thinking is that you look away from countries which might have good policies. These policies could be used in the US.
- diordiderot 5y ago
  > not mainstream everywhere FR: Front national IT: lega Nord DL: AFD ES: Vox They're taking over Europe because neoliberals are full of shit, and the left wing has their hands tied. Normal people have nowhere else to go.
  - herbstein 5y ago
    DK: Dansk Folkeparti Well, they lost of a lot of their voters... because most of the middle-seeking parties adopted their hostile foreign policy and made them irrelevant.
namdnay 5y ago
The far-right parties in Europe are usually focused on immigration rather than race. Look at the Brexit parties in the UK, the big enemies were the Poles. And the FN/RN in France has always taken pains to show that it is "pro-black" (and anti-brown..)
- smilespray 5y ago
  Meh, it's always about those terrible "others", no matter what the actual term is. Who's in that group varies on what gains the political players.
- toyg 5y ago
  > Look at the Brexit parties in the UK, the big enemies were the Poles In the South of England, maybe. In the North they barely exists, here "the enemy" continues to be South-Asian communities (which, ironically, were also heavily pro-Brexit, because of the correct calculation that British policies would then be forced to fall back on Asians for cheap immigration).
- vishnugupta 5y ago
  > immigration rather than race. Two sides of the same coin. A large section of people are left out of benefits of improving economy. Lions share of the gains go to the Uber rich people. And politicians play immigration card to whip up their voter base. More or less exact phenomenon played out in Bombay, India. Except that the immigrants were Indians from other states (Gujarat, Tamilnadu etc). But when the political party did come to power they did absolutely nothing to improve their voter base’s life. Bombay continues to be a shit hole, worse so, that it was and the city floods every monsoon like a clockwork.
  - Auracle 5y ago
    Perhaps they just see that wages are being suppressed through mass immigration of a cheaper labor force?
    - scollet 5y ago
      Businesses are responsible for that. I'm not sure how you're making that leap.
- lucian1900 5y ago
  Racism isn't the same thing as colourism. Eastern Europeans and Muslims are both groups that get racialised in Western Europe.
- specialist 5y ago
  We saw this coming. I read predictions of a right wing backlash to immigration as a kid. In the 80s. Even in the USA, the nation of immigrants, where we assimilate immigrants the best (comparatively), increased immigration has always leads to a reactionary backlash. Being very pro-immigration, a big of Matthew Yglesias's One Billion Americans thesis, I have no clue how to move forward. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Billion_Americans https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Billion_Americans
Jenk 5y ago
That's a country specific problem, not a Europe problem. I don't mean just Brexit for the UK, either. What does happen in Europe is far-right parties get a platform to speak on. The big continental countries have an election process that lets everyone be heard, and the far-right get heard plenty - allowing the electorate to smell their bullshit. In the UK we don't have such elections. We have a two horse race, and token efforts given to fringe parties, and state media that are "maintaining balance" by constantly inviting candidates who haven't been elected after 8 attempts to frequently tout their bullshit (and critically without being challenged on any of it). The far-right thrive here because they are unchecked, unquestioned, and ultimately not properly exposed. They relish in the "underdog", "cancelled", and/or "repressed" argument to win votes. Also when our leading party receives £160k from the wives of former Russian minsiters to play tennis with the prime minister[0] you have to wonder who is really pulling the strings. [0]: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-28158479 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-28158479
- pydry 5y ago
  Brexit happened because a third party tore chunks out of the voting base of one of those two horses.
  - Jenk 5y ago
    Yes, as a result of what I said above. Farage and goons were unchecked. They rarely, if ever, had their bullshit fact checked by anyone that interviewed them. Dominic Cummings, an extreme libertarian[0], was in bed with various far-right (and also libertarian) people from the west, took office as the Special Advisor to the Prime Minister after riding the Brexit wave to success. A role that meant he had the power, without the need to be elected. He kicked everyone out that didn't agree with him, and/or had their own opinion(s). His one goal was to completely reform (read: dismantle) government. Unluckily for him, COVID came and revealed just what a cluster of dickheads he had left in government. Then he managed to get caught going on a 300 mile road trip after testing positive, including a trip to a Castle on his wife's birthday. The resulting mess of media coverage left the government with little choice but to "fire" him, but even that was a shitshow that took 6 months longer than it should have. Now we are left with cabinet of useless, and I mean useless, puppets with no puppet master. Side note: They (the right) also had clandestine social media campaigns. Cambridge Analytica's main purpose wasn't to identify who to send the bullshit to, it was to identify who to keep the bullshit from so that they wouldn't be challenged. [0]: https://lloydhardy.com/news/Why_Brexit_Happened/ https://lloydhardy.com/news/Why_Brexit_Happened/
kukallan 5y ago
I can't speak for the whole of Europe and I might be a sheep - but at least in Scandinavia, these far right parties are more of a symptom of the mainstream parties refusal to talk about problems related to immigration combined with US cultural influence. Sweden is no.1 in Europe when it comes to gun violence right now and only last year non-right political parties started discussing current crime waves link to integration / immigration. It's not surprising that the far right - hard on crime and hard on immigrants thrive in this political climate.
- tsimionescu 5y ago
  Hard on crime and hard on immigration IS the far right. Sure, if the old parties had veered far-right, new far-right parties wouldn't have shown up. The problem are not the parties, the problem are the policies. Kicking immigrants out or licking them up will not improve the life of the local lower class, despite all the promises. It may improve the life of the rich, who won't have to fear bring mugged. But the reasons why immigration is happening, and why immigrants remain poor, will either continue (no one wants to do the dirty jobs) or mine too the local lower class (let's pray locals less so that they are competitive with immigrants).
  - kukallan 5y ago
    I fully agree. I don't agree with far right policies either and the situation in Sweden breaks my heart. But I'm not surprised that the far right is getting traction in a climate where other parties have been ignoring the problems for so long, and I don't think "efforts to unify the underclass completely derailed by this ridiculous race war" applies to the political climate and right wing parties in Sweden or Scandinavia as a whole as of right now.
  - newfriend 5y ago
    Ceasing the funnel of endless low-skill, wage-depressing job competitors absolutely would improve the life of the lower class. They also have to deal with increased crime, it's not a uniquely "rich" problem. These parties are growing in popularity because it's a reaction to a real problem that locals are witnessing as their communities are changed for the worse. Back in the 80s/90s, Sweden was known for bikini teams and ABBA. Now it's known for rape gangs. Sad!

by toyg 5y ago

hectord 5y ago

Please don't generalize. Far-right parties are not mainstream everywhere. Europe is complex, as much as the US. The issue with this way of thinking is that you look away from countries which might have good policies. These policies could be used in the US.

diordiderot 5y ago
> not mainstream everywhere FR: Front national IT: lega Nord DL: AFD ES: Vox They're taking over Europe because neoliberals are full of shit, and the left wing has their hands tied. Normal people have nowhere else to go.
- herbstein 5y ago
  DK: Dansk Folkeparti Well, they lost of a lot of their voters... because most of the middle-seeking parties adopted their hostile foreign policy and made them irrelevant.

namdnay 5y ago

The far-right parties in Europe are usually focused on immigration rather than race. Look at the Brexit parties in the UK, the big enemies were the Poles. And the FN/RN in France has always taken pains to show that it is "pro-black" (and anti-brown..)

smilespray 5y ago
Meh, it's always about those terrible "others", no matter what the actual term is. Who's in that group varies on what gains the political players.
toyg 5y ago
> Look at the Brexit parties in the UK, the big enemies were the Poles In the South of England, maybe. In the North they barely exists, here "the enemy" continues to be South-Asian communities (which, ironically, were also heavily pro-Brexit, because of the correct calculation that British policies would then be forced to fall back on Asians for cheap immigration).
vishnugupta 5y ago
> immigration rather than race. Two sides of the same coin. A large section of people are left out of benefits of improving economy. Lions share of the gains go to the Uber rich people. And politicians play immigration card to whip up their voter base. More or less exact phenomenon played out in Bombay, India. Except that the immigrants were Indians from other states (Gujarat, Tamilnadu etc). But when the political party did come to power they did absolutely nothing to improve their voter base’s life. Bombay continues to be a shit hole, worse so, that it was and the city floods every monsoon like a clockwork.
- Auracle 5y ago
  Perhaps they just see that wages are being suppressed through mass immigration of a cheaper labor force?
  - scollet 5y ago
    Businesses are responsible for that. I'm not sure how you're making that leap.
lucian1900 5y ago
Racism isn't the same thing as colourism. Eastern Europeans and Muslims are both groups that get racialised in Western Europe.
specialist 5y ago
We saw this coming. I read predictions of a right wing backlash to immigration as a kid. In the 80s. Even in the USA, the nation of immigrants, where we assimilate immigrants the best (comparatively), increased immigration has always leads to a reactionary backlash. Being very pro-immigration, a big of Matthew Yglesias's One Billion Americans thesis, I have no clue how to move forward. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Billion_Americans https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Billion_Americans

Jenk 5y ago

That's a country specific problem, not a Europe problem. I don't mean just Brexit for the UK, either. What does happen in Europe is far-right parties get a platform to speak on. The big continental countries have an election process that lets everyone be heard, and the far-right get heard plenty - allowing the electorate to smell their bullshit. In the UK we don't have such elections. We have a two horse race, and token efforts given to fringe parties, and state media that are "maintaining balance" by constantly inviting candidates who haven't been elected after 8 attempts to frequently tout their bullshit (and critically without being challenged on any of it). The far-right thrive here because they are unchecked, unquestioned, and ultimately not properly exposed. They relish in the "underdog", "cancelled", and/or "repressed" argument to win votes. Also when our leading party receives £160k from the wives of former Russian minsiters to play tennis with the prime minister[0] you have to wonder who is really pulling the strings. [0]: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-28158479 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-28158479

pydry 5y ago
Brexit happened because a third party tore chunks out of the voting base of one of those two horses.
- Jenk 5y ago
  Yes, as a result of what I said above. Farage and goons were unchecked. They rarely, if ever, had their bullshit fact checked by anyone that interviewed them. Dominic Cummings, an extreme libertarian[0], was in bed with various far-right (and also libertarian) people from the west, took office as the Special Advisor to the Prime Minister after riding the Brexit wave to success. A role that meant he had the power, without the need to be elected. He kicked everyone out that didn't agree with him, and/or had their own opinion(s). His one goal was to completely reform (read: dismantle) government. Unluckily for him, COVID came and revealed just what a cluster of dickheads he had left in government. Then he managed to get caught going on a 300 mile road trip after testing positive, including a trip to a Castle on his wife's birthday. The resulting mess of media coverage left the government with little choice but to "fire" him, but even that was a shitshow that took 6 months longer than it should have. Now we are left with cabinet of useless, and I mean useless, puppets with no puppet master. Side note: They (the right) also had clandestine social media campaigns. Cambridge Analytica's main purpose wasn't to identify who to send the bullshit to, it was to identify who to keep the bullshit from so that they wouldn't be challenged. [0]: https://lloydhardy.com/news/Why_Brexit_Happened/ https://lloydhardy.com/news/Why_Brexit_Happened/

kukallan 5y ago

I can't speak for the whole of Europe and I might be a sheep - but at least in Scandinavia, these far right parties are more of a symptom of the mainstream parties refusal to talk about problems related to immigration combined with US cultural influence. Sweden is no.1 in Europe when it comes to gun violence right now and only last year non-right political parties started discussing current crime waves link to integration / immigration. It's not surprising that the far right - hard on crime and hard on immigrants thrive in this political climate.

tsimionescu 5y ago
Hard on crime and hard on immigration IS the far right. Sure, if the old parties had veered far-right, new far-right parties wouldn't have shown up. The problem are not the parties, the problem are the policies. Kicking immigrants out or licking them up will not improve the life of the local lower class, despite all the promises. It may improve the life of the rich, who won't have to fear bring mugged. But the reasons why immigration is happening, and why immigrants remain poor, will either continue (no one wants to do the dirty jobs) or mine too the local lower class (let's pray locals less so that they are competitive with immigrants).
- kukallan 5y ago
  I fully agree. I don't agree with far right policies either and the situation in Sweden breaks my heart. But I'm not surprised that the far right is getting traction in a climate where other parties have been ignoring the problems for so long, and I don't think "efforts to unify the underclass completely derailed by this ridiculous race war" applies to the political climate and right wing parties in Sweden or Scandinavia as a whole as of right now.
- newfriend 5y ago
  Ceasing the funnel of endless low-skill, wage-depressing job competitors absolutely would improve the life of the lower class. They also have to deal with increased crime, it's not a uniquely "rich" problem. These parties are growing in popularity because it's a reaction to a real problem that locals are witnessing as their communities are changed for the worse. Back in the 80s/90s, Sweden was known for bikini teams and ABBA. Now it's known for rape gangs. Sad!