10 ms·

> Do people regularly run into coworkers like me during their career and simply ignore it because they find it too awkward to criticize them? Yes exactly this,

by syspec 5y ago

> Do people regularly run into coworkers like me during their career and simply ignore it because they find it too awkward to criticize them? Yes exactly this, especially at larger companies. I know a few of those developers, and they sit right near me... They find a way to make any task take forever... If it was a smaller company they would be called out, but at my [very, very] large company - its very hard to get fired. So what happens is that they are just given what is essentially remedial work. As a fellow IC, it will in no way make my life better to call this person out.

abledon 5y ago
I first was driven mad by people like this... 5 days work and 2 lines of java code committed modifying class visibility etc. then I slowly became them after realizing busting my ass everyday for a corporation was not worth it. (also reading gervais' piece on losers/clueless/sociopath triad in orgs)
- nine_zeros 5y ago
  Same here. Once I realized that my efficiency in output only helps my immediate management look good (as opposed to me getting promos/bonuses), I lost all motivation to go above and beyond. The only time I felt like doing my best was for a manager who genuinely wanted to get me promoted, and he did it smartly.
- tingletech 5y ago
  interesting, thanks for the reference to https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/10/07/the-gervais-principle-or-the-office-according-to-the-office/ https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/10/07/the-gervais-principle-...
- BTCOG 5y ago
  "Chaotic-neutral I'm always fuckin' coastin'" It's first best to realize sociopaths drive from the top in the same fashion. NO employer gives a damn about you, they control you in ways to squeeze the value out of you and will dispose of you at the very drop of a dime. Those of us that "fail up" within companies and update resumes and move on, throw the ball back in their court by also manipulating them.
pydry 5y ago
Large companies have a tendency to throw up all sorts of impediments to actually getting shit done. Simple tasks can take 3 weeks because there are 7-9 dependencies throwing sand in the gears. This not only provides plenty of cover for not getting stuff done it also saps the motivation to get it done quickly. Like, if X team sits on your request for a week that prevents Y feature from getting out are you really gonna be motivated to push it to production the second it's unblocked? Or could it wait another couple days? Contrast that with a small startup where you barely need sign off to do anything - it's much easier to get into that pleasant loop of code -> deploy -> see customers use it -> dopamine hit -> motivation to code some more.
- bartread 5y ago
  Wow. A mere 3 weeks to get something done. I worked somewhere once where it took 8 months to implement a two page sign-up process, and I counted about 60 people involved. A colleague said I didn't know the half of it and that there were actually more than 100 people involved. I didn't last very long.
  - p_l 5y ago
    One of the reasons I left a company recently, despite it getting better, was how it took over a year before I could start working on SSO (despite it being critical, super-duper-high priority item) because it took 3/4ths of a year before we started getting user data necessary, then I spent fixing stuff that atrophied due to similar issues. We were also over a year into "how do we setup direct access between on-prem and cloud" where I stopped attending meetings because within two or three meetings we always got back to starting point, whereas I joined the first meeting with reasonable, implementable solution.
    - ethbr0 5y ago
      > where I stopped attending meetings because within two or three meetings we always got back to starting point This is a reliable litmus test for company dysfunction: how many people are in meetings & do meetings end with clear, concrete decisions?
zcw100 5y ago
It must have been a couple of months because... > I keep this link sitting around and enjoy dusting it off every couple of months or so > https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/10/07/the-gervais-principle-or-the-office-according-to-the-office/ https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/10/07/the-gervais-principle-...
- LAC-Tech 5y ago
  LOL this came to my mind too. And also the more tech-centric treatment it gets in 'Developer Hegemony' is well wroth a read. OP is making a perfectly rational decision.
notJim 5y ago
> I know a few of those developers, and they sit right near me... In fact, this is so common that I can name the exact people at several jobs I've had. And I could mention them to my coworkers and they'd know exactly what these people's reputation are. Our feeling toward them is a mix of being impressed and being embarrassed. Impressed because there's something to be said for someone who works the system to their advantage like this. Embarrassed because it's hard to understand how they couldn't be more ambitious at work. It's not that companies are that great at rewarding getting things done (sometimes they are…), but it's that getting something cool done is rewarding in its own right. Why don't they want that feeling… ?
- p_l 5y ago
  Sometimes that feeling has been beaten out of us by various means. I had a ton of ideas in many a job, rarely if ever I could get into conditions where I could even start working on them - usually the interesting stuff happened in secret side projects, off the company time.
  - hpoe 5y ago
    I think this is a big one, there comes a certain point where the bureaucracy simply squeezes the ambition and desire out of you. I hit that at some points, I just didn't want to work anymore excelling at my job made no difference to me or anyone else because even if I stood out and did excellently it wouldn't matter because I had to go to other teams or get other approvals to actually acomplish something. I found myself spending time on leetcode, or learning emacs because I could justify those as improving my abilities. To quote Office Space "I have 4 different bosses, my only motivation is to not get hassled, that and fear of losing my job. But you know what Bob, that gets someone to work just hard enough to not get fired."
    - cheradenine_uk 5y ago
      As my old boss would say: "Why would I push that rock up that hill".
    - 5y ago
pg_1234 5y ago
My reaction to these situations is - if someone will me for half days, spend the other half shopping for higher pay for actual full days. You're not going to get anywhere near double, but don't settle, use the time to pursue something better.
honkycat 5y ago
> If it was a smaller company they would be called out Don't be so sure. It is HARD to get fired in this job, sometimes. You have to be actively toxic, or your boss has to have a buddy they want to hire in your position.
amelius 5y ago
> Yes exactly this, especially at larger companies. I know a few of those developers, and they sit right near me... I find it a somewhat comforting thought ... if I ever get overworked then I can always become one of those guys ... Maybe that's why nobody ever calls them out.
milofeynman 5y ago
I still remember one guy who did that and he'd pass work to me I complained to my manager and nothing happened. I work a lot and am super driven. Don't like people like that.
- BTCOG 5y ago
  I can assure you, the feeling is mutual. If you are the type who overachieves, would complain to a manager, and enjoys meetings, you should realize those fed up with banality and fake niceties of corporate office work that do just enough to get by really do not like you, either.
  - milofeynman 5y ago
    I don't overachieve or like meetings? I work normal hours and get stuff done. You're reading a lot into me without knowing anything about the situation. I don't have time to overachieve I have children and a wife with a career. Also smd
datavirtue 5y ago
These people have settled into the behavior learned from the repeated signalling to work like this. I have worked in startups and small companies and after a recent aquisition have worked in large companies for the first time in my career spanning 30 years. I am absolutely blown away at the environment and the behavior it breeds. I have lost most respect for the human race that continues to endure this as though it is acceptable. So many managers, so much busy work: remediating vulns that have no impact, CBTs, forced collaboration and sharing, layer upon layer of shared services, arbitrary policies, byzantine draconian change orders, and all the crap that the afore-mentioned cause. Every problem results in a new arbitrary policy (authoritarian bureaucratic reflex) that gets layered on top.
BbzzbB 5y ago
What is IC? Google tells me Interstitial Cystitis, but my hunch tells me it's something else.
- H8crilA 5y ago
  Individual Contributor. Means that you're only writing code, not managing people at all. It's the opposite of a (pure) Engineering Manager, who only manages and writes no code / produces no design. Most mid level people (for example L6-L7 at Google/Facebook) are simultaneously managers and engineers, thus somewhere between IC and EM. Almost all low level people (L3-L5) are ICs, almost all high level people (L8+) are managers/directors/executives that produce no technical solutions themselves.
  - BbzzbB 5y ago
    Thank you for the answer! Much obliged.
  - datavirtue 5y ago
    I was working at a fairly enlightened (said all the right things) corporation that had a principle engineer track--or whatever it was called--that fooled engineers into thinking they could be a bad ass developer/mentor/architect without being responsible for managing staff. When I left the managers were using these guys to drive (as in micromanage the fuck out of them) the troops. All they were doing was staring at vulnerability reports that would make your eyes bleed and nagging people in slack for one of their five daily 1-on-1 updates. Everyone they were doing this to were top grade devs--a few left for Google and AWS.
- deleted 5y ago
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- deleted 5y ago
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- deleted 5y ago
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- aembleton 5y ago
digianarchist 5y ago
I had a coworker at a government job that clocked in doing no work for 6 months. They were going to PIP him when I left but he's still there now.
- brodouevencode 5y ago
  It's also the government. There are generally more barriers to firing someone than to hiring them.
  - digianarchist 5y ago
    It had been done before. Most people were packaged out though.
- abledon 5y ago
  reminds me of this gem on a previous thread similar to this from 8 months ago: > My supervisor said to me "This guy can spend 100% of his time trying not to get fired. You can spend maybe 2% of your time trying to get rid of him. Who's gonna win?" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26727803 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26727803
marvinblum 5y ago
Trust me, this also applies to smaller companies.

by syspec 5y ago

abledon 5y ago

I first was driven mad by people like this... 5 days work and 2 lines of java code committed modifying class visibility etc. then I slowly became them after realizing busting my ass everyday for a corporation was not worth it. (also reading gervais' piece on losers/clueless/sociopath triad in orgs)

nine_zeros 5y ago
Same here. Once I realized that my efficiency in output only helps my immediate management look good (as opposed to me getting promos/bonuses), I lost all motivation to go above and beyond. The only time I felt like doing my best was for a manager who genuinely wanted to get me promoted, and he did it smartly.
tingletech 5y ago
interesting, thanks for the reference to https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/10/07/the-gervais-principle-or-the-office-according-to-the-office/ https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/10/07/the-gervais-principle-...
BTCOG 5y ago
"Chaotic-neutral I'm always fuckin' coastin'" It's first best to realize sociopaths drive from the top in the same fashion. NO employer gives a damn about you, they control you in ways to squeeze the value out of you and will dispose of you at the very drop of a dime. Those of us that "fail up" within companies and update resumes and move on, throw the ball back in their court by also manipulating them.

pydry 5y ago

Large companies have a tendency to throw up all sorts of impediments to actually getting shit done. Simple tasks can take 3 weeks because there are 7-9 dependencies throwing sand in the gears. This not only provides plenty of cover for not getting stuff done it also saps the motivation to get it done quickly. Like, if X team sits on your request for a week that prevents Y feature from getting out are you really gonna be motivated to push it to production the second it's unblocked? Or could it wait another couple days? Contrast that with a small startup where you barely need sign off to do anything - it's much easier to get into that pleasant loop of code -> deploy -> see customers use it -> dopamine hit -> motivation to code some more.

bartread 5y ago
Wow. A mere 3 weeks to get something done. I worked somewhere once where it took 8 months to implement a two page sign-up process, and I counted about 60 people involved. A colleague said I didn't know the half of it and that there were actually more than 100 people involved. I didn't last very long.
- p_l 5y ago
  One of the reasons I left a company recently, despite it getting better, was how it took over a year before I could start working on SSO (despite it being critical, super-duper-high priority item) because it took 3/4ths of a year before we started getting user data necessary, then I spent fixing stuff that atrophied due to similar issues. We were also over a year into "how do we setup direct access between on-prem and cloud" where I stopped attending meetings because within two or three meetings we always got back to starting point, whereas I joined the first meeting with reasonable, implementable solution.
  - ethbr0 5y ago
    > where I stopped attending meetings because within two or three meetings we always got back to starting point This is a reliable litmus test for company dysfunction: how many people are in meetings & do meetings end with clear, concrete decisions?

zcw100 5y ago

It must have been a couple of months because... > I keep this link sitting around and enjoy dusting it off every couple of months or so > https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/10/07/the-gervais-principle-or-the-office-according-to-the-office/ https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/10/07/the-gervais-principle-...

LAC-Tech 5y ago
LOL this came to my mind too. And also the more tech-centric treatment it gets in 'Developer Hegemony' is well wroth a read. OP is making a perfectly rational decision.

notJim 5y ago

> I know a few of those developers, and they sit right near me... In fact, this is so common that I can name the exact people at several jobs I've had. And I could mention them to my coworkers and they'd know exactly what these people's reputation are. Our feeling toward them is a mix of being impressed and being embarrassed. Impressed because there's something to be said for someone who works the system to their advantage like this. Embarrassed because it's hard to understand how they couldn't be more ambitious at work. It's not that companies are that great at rewarding getting things done (sometimes they are…), but it's that getting something cool done is rewarding in its own right. Why don't they want that feeling… ?

p_l 5y ago
Sometimes that feeling has been beaten out of us by various means. I had a ton of ideas in many a job, rarely if ever I could get into conditions where I could even start working on them - usually the interesting stuff happened in secret side projects, off the company time.
- hpoe 5y ago
  I think this is a big one, there comes a certain point where the bureaucracy simply squeezes the ambition and desire out of you. I hit that at some points, I just didn't want to work anymore excelling at my job made no difference to me or anyone else because even if I stood out and did excellently it wouldn't matter because I had to go to other teams or get other approvals to actually acomplish something. I found myself spending time on leetcode, or learning emacs because I could justify those as improving my abilities. To quote Office Space "I have 4 different bosses, my only motivation is to not get hassled, that and fear of losing my job. But you know what Bob, that gets someone to work just hard enough to not get fired."
  - cheradenine_uk 5y ago
    As my old boss would say: "Why would I push that rock up that hill".
  - 5y ago

pg_1234 5y ago

My reaction to these situations is - if someone will me for half days, spend the other half shopping for higher pay for actual full days. You're not going to get anywhere near double, but don't settle, use the time to pursue something better.

honkycat 5y ago

> If it was a smaller company they would be called out Don't be so sure. It is HARD to get fired in this job, sometimes. You have to be actively toxic, or your boss has to have a buddy they want to hire in your position.

amelius 5y ago

> Yes exactly this, especially at larger companies. I know a few of those developers, and they sit right near me... I find it a somewhat comforting thought ... if I ever get overworked then I can always become one of those guys ... Maybe that's why nobody ever calls them out.

milofeynman 5y ago

I still remember one guy who did that and he'd pass work to me I complained to my manager and nothing happened. I work a lot and am super driven. Don't like people like that.

BTCOG 5y ago
I can assure you, the feeling is mutual. If you are the type who overachieves, would complain to a manager, and enjoys meetings, you should realize those fed up with banality and fake niceties of corporate office work that do just enough to get by really do not like you, either.
- milofeynman 5y ago
  I don't overachieve or like meetings? I work normal hours and get stuff done. You're reading a lot into me without knowing anything about the situation. I don't have time to overachieve I have children and a wife with a career. Also smd

datavirtue 5y ago

These people have settled into the behavior learned from the repeated signalling to work like this. I have worked in startups and small companies and after a recent aquisition have worked in large companies for the first time in my career spanning 30 years. I am absolutely blown away at the environment and the behavior it breeds. I have lost most respect for the human race that continues to endure this as though it is acceptable. So many managers, so much busy work: remediating vulns that have no impact, CBTs, forced collaboration and sharing, layer upon layer of shared services, arbitrary policies, byzantine draconian change orders, and all the crap that the afore-mentioned cause. Every problem results in a new arbitrary policy (authoritarian bureaucratic reflex) that gets layered on top.

BbzzbB 5y ago

What is IC? Google tells me Interstitial Cystitis, but my hunch tells me it's something else.

H8crilA 5y ago
Individual Contributor. Means that you're only writing code, not managing people at all. It's the opposite of a (pure) Engineering Manager, who only manages and writes no code / produces no design. Most mid level people (for example L6-L7 at Google/Facebook) are simultaneously managers and engineers, thus somewhere between IC and EM. Almost all low level people (L3-L5) are ICs, almost all high level people (L8+) are managers/directors/executives that produce no technical solutions themselves.
- BbzzbB 5y ago
  Thank you for the answer! Much obliged.
- datavirtue 5y ago
  I was working at a fairly enlightened (said all the right things) corporation that had a principle engineer track--or whatever it was called--that fooled engineers into thinking they could be a bad ass developer/mentor/architect without being responsible for managing staff. When I left the managers were using these guys to drive (as in micromanage the fuck out of them) the troops. All they were doing was staring at vulnerability reports that would make your eyes bleed and nagging people in slack for one of their five daily 1-on-1 updates. Everyone they were doing this to were top grade devs--a few left for Google and AWS.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
aembleton 5y ago

digianarchist 5y ago

I had a coworker at a government job that clocked in doing no work for 6 months. They were going to PIP him when I left but he's still there now.

brodouevencode 5y ago
It's also the government. There are generally more barriers to firing someone than to hiring them.
- digianarchist 5y ago
  It had been done before. Most people were packaged out though.
abledon 5y ago
reminds me of this gem on a previous thread similar to this from 8 months ago: > My supervisor said to me "This guy can spend 100% of his time trying not to get fired. You can spend maybe 2% of your time trying to get rid of him. Who's gonna win?" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26727803 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26727803

marvinblum 5y ago

Trust me, this also applies to smaller companies.