5 ms·

I have never done what you describe, except perhaps in times of illness when it was understood that working less was a reasonable accommodation (in that particu

I have never done what you describe, except perhaps in times of illness when it was understood that working less was a reasonable accommodation (in that particular case, I had leftover brain fog from general anesthesia). I've never heard of any colleagues doing it either. I would never snitch if it happened, but I would certainly consider that person untrustworthy or think that they have an undisclosed condition that is between them and HR. As you covered in your post, we don't write code 8 hours a day. This is normal. Meetings, context switch and times when focus is unachievable are expected and mostly understood by my experienced management. So are times when we are monitoring technology advancement and keeping an eye on the industry and community (e.g. lurking at HN but not overly posting and commenting) and times of social activity between workers (e.g. talking about the weekend). Most of us take mental health breaks between meetings and need to take time to think through issues. Many also need to periodically break focus to think about personal life issues or hobbies. As long as you generally strive to work, this is not a problem either. But walking into a stand-up and then lying about your day? To me, that's unethical. The real question to me is: Do you do that on purpose or is this something that happens even if you are trying to focus? There are many conditions, from stress and anxiety to diagnosed mental health issues that can prevent you from focusing. Burn-outs and bore-outs also come to mind. In my eyes, the fact that you asked the community about it shows that you have some form of concern towards that behavior. Would you say it is negatively impacting your life?

trulyme 5y ago
Most of the other answers focus on how programming is not typing (which I agree with, of course), but I think they miss the point. Yours answers directly and I agree with it. Working 5 to 10 hours a week seems very low to me, though as a lead or as a coworker I would judge OP by the impact, not by the time spent behind the computer. But I doubt anyone can have serious impact in such time. I had the chance to work with a brilliant coworker who preferred to slack off - and have passed on recommending him for this very reason. World is a big place and there are many ways to go through life, so I'm not judging - but if you're asking if this is common, then the answer is "no, not at the places where I worked, and not how I work". Of course you would have to pay/promise me fortune to get more than 40hr weeks from me, but I'm not hiding that. :-)
tqwhite 5y ago
All the other comments about the background processing, waiting for inspiration, only having stamina for a certain amount of time are all correct. For forty years I have lived that life and have never been in a situation where I averaged more than a few hours a day of actual coding. It often takes a long time for me to figure out what to do but, that's work, too. But, five to ten a week?, get a different job that you like. I have worked in situations where there wasn't really enough to do. My response, write something else. If I was 100% retired I would work more than five or ten hours a week. And I think, karawebnetwork, that you are right to inquire amount mental health. Having that little energy and motivation is not a good thing.
- lta 5y ago
  Haha. I absolutely love your comment on retirement. I might borrow it from tout in the future
lta 5y ago
I'm happy to finally read a comment that say this isn't a good or normal thing. I was starting to feel a bit of despair. I don't think I've done that much more that you seems to do but I've certainly seen a lot of people do it and it's always been pissing me off. I've always wondered how the world even works when I consider how much I've seen people do that at every level and at every kind of job. Dear original post author, you really need to start doing something that you enjoy or that motivates you. You can also try to structure your life in a way that allows you to not work when you don't feel like you can or will be efficient. This is one of the very reason I'm freelancing: I work when I want/can, and do not pretend the rest of the time. But when I'm working, I'm trying to stay as close as possible to 100%. I charge a premium rate for those very focused session, and do not pretend the rest of the time. There are times when I work a lot, a d times when I don't accept new projects because I need time off (usually 4 months a year) I'm really wondering how healthy is, psychologically, all this pretending. Anyway, I don't think you're alone in your situation but I don't think it's a good thing either
- brushfoot 5y ago
  > I'm happy to finally read a comment that say this isn't a good or normal thing. I was starting to feel a bit of despair. I felt the same way. One of the weird things about the Internet is that it, as Randall Munroe wrote recently, "makes us see messages from awful people and assume they come from normal peers." That isn't to suggest that people who share OP's views are awful -- just that these comments could come from any world view, income level, religion, mood, and state of intoxication.
- nostoneunturned 5y ago
  I was kinda in similar shoes to OP but I am at the start of my career and it became obvious to me that I was not working at the same level as everyone else. I quit because I was severely burnt out and like you, I didn't want to pretend. 9-5 just isn't for me but it seems like you found a way around that with freelancing. I would love to do the same. Can you please shed some light on how you got started with it and how you built you client base? I have always admired those that get to work in their own time as you do, it would be a dream to do the same.
- 5y ago
therealdrag0 5y ago
I agree. I once had a coworker who I KNEW was under performing. They went from 'normal' output to just checking in and out. It was pretty frustrating and de-moralizing as it felt like they weren't pulling their weight. Among teams there is a social contract, it's not all just between an employee and the company, it also impacts your coworkers.
- codebolt 5y ago
  Agreed. Really surprised by most of the answers here. On my team, someone like the OP would be found out fast and wouldn't last long.
  - viceroyalbean 5y ago
    My interpretation is that most of the people replying are giving the OP the benefit of the doubt regarding productivity, considering OP never mentions anything concretely other than having acceptable performance reviews and isn't jumping between workplaces every 6 months. It's hard to know if they mean "I write code and close all my tickets in 10 hours every week" or if they mean "I touch my work computer twice a week and spend the rest of the time on youtube and playing video games". Depending on what you assume the response would therefore be "yikes" in the latter case or "well, not all programming work is typing code" in the former.
dx034 5y ago
Not sure about the arguments regarding ethics. When I'm an employee, my contract is with the employer. They pay me, they evaluate me and their success is what determines my progress (in a good company). Sure, coworkers can suffer if I refuse to do my work, but I'm not there to make them happy, I'm there to make the company money. So I don't think it's unethical to work less as long as your employer is still happy with what you do. Sure, lying is always suboptimal. But if your company likes your output and would just be confused by the hours needed to achieve, I don't see a big problem with it. You could even argue that working full time and producing 8x as much could bring coworkers in trouble who already can barely match OPs output. And they will exist, he wouldn't have gotten to the point where he is if he constantly was the worst performer.
- Karawebnetwork 5y ago
  > So I don't think it's unethical to work less as long as your employer is still happy with what you do. Then tell the truth and deal with the consequences.
  - engineeringwoke 5y ago
    Why? Perception is reality in engineering. I'm not incentivized to be anything other than slightly above average... people have horrible memories and velocity is very arbitrary. Engineering is a charlatan's paradise full stop; sounding smart is easy. In sales (especially) and marketing, there are real numbers that you drive. Everyone has bad quarters but if it continues, you will be let go.
    - cutemonster 5y ago
      > sounding smart is easy If talking with much less technical people But not if talking with a brighter and more experienced person >> tell the truth > Why? Perception is reality in engineering There's also the saying that goes "pick your battles". -- Compared to other things in life, how important is it that the managers know that in fact you work only so and so much?

trulyme 5y ago

Most of the other answers focus on how programming is not typing (which I agree with, of course), but I think they miss the point. Yours answers directly and I agree with it. Working 5 to 10 hours a week seems very low to me, though as a lead or as a coworker I would judge OP by the impact, not by the time spent behind the computer. But I doubt anyone can have serious impact in such time. I had the chance to work with a brilliant coworker who preferred to slack off - and have passed on recommending him for this very reason. World is a big place and there are many ways to go through life, so I'm not judging - but if you're asking if this is common, then the answer is "no, not at the places where I worked, and not how I work". Of course you would have to pay/promise me fortune to get more than 40hr weeks from me, but I'm not hiding that. :-)

tqwhite 5y ago

All the other comments about the background processing, waiting for inspiration, only having stamina for a certain amount of time are all correct. For forty years I have lived that life and have never been in a situation where I averaged more than a few hours a day of actual coding. It often takes a long time for me to figure out what to do but, that's work, too. But, five to ten a week?, get a different job that you like. I have worked in situations where there wasn't really enough to do. My response, write something else. If I was 100% retired I would work more than five or ten hours a week. And I think, karawebnetwork, that you are right to inquire amount mental health. Having that little energy and motivation is not a good thing.

lta 5y ago
Haha. I absolutely love your comment on retirement. I might borrow it from tout in the future

lta 5y ago

I'm happy to finally read a comment that say this isn't a good or normal thing. I was starting to feel a bit of despair. I don't think I've done that much more that you seems to do but I've certainly seen a lot of people do it and it's always been pissing me off. I've always wondered how the world even works when I consider how much I've seen people do that at every level and at every kind of job. Dear original post author, you really need to start doing something that you enjoy or that motivates you. You can also try to structure your life in a way that allows you to not work when you don't feel like you can or will be efficient. This is one of the very reason I'm freelancing: I work when I want/can, and do not pretend the rest of the time. But when I'm working, I'm trying to stay as close as possible to 100%. I charge a premium rate for those very focused session, and do not pretend the rest of the time. There are times when I work a lot, a d times when I don't accept new projects because I need time off (usually 4 months a year) I'm really wondering how healthy is, psychologically, all this pretending. Anyway, I don't think you're alone in your situation but I don't think it's a good thing either

brushfoot 5y ago
> I'm happy to finally read a comment that say this isn't a good or normal thing. I was starting to feel a bit of despair. I felt the same way. One of the weird things about the Internet is that it, as Randall Munroe wrote recently, "makes us see messages from awful people and assume they come from normal peers." That isn't to suggest that people who share OP's views are awful -- just that these comments could come from any world view, income level, religion, mood, and state of intoxication.
nostoneunturned 5y ago
I was kinda in similar shoes to OP but I am at the start of my career and it became obvious to me that I was not working at the same level as everyone else. I quit because I was severely burnt out and like you, I didn't want to pretend. 9-5 just isn't for me but it seems like you found a way around that with freelancing. I would love to do the same. Can you please shed some light on how you got started with it and how you built you client base? I have always admired those that get to work in their own time as you do, it would be a dream to do the same.
5y ago

therealdrag0 5y ago

I agree. I once had a coworker who I KNEW was under performing. They went from 'normal' output to just checking in and out. It was pretty frustrating and de-moralizing as it felt like they weren't pulling their weight. Among teams there is a social contract, it's not all just between an employee and the company, it also impacts your coworkers.

codebolt 5y ago
Agreed. Really surprised by most of the answers here. On my team, someone like the OP would be found out fast and wouldn't last long.
- viceroyalbean 5y ago
  My interpretation is that most of the people replying are giving the OP the benefit of the doubt regarding productivity, considering OP never mentions anything concretely other than having acceptable performance reviews and isn't jumping between workplaces every 6 months. It's hard to know if they mean "I write code and close all my tickets in 10 hours every week" or if they mean "I touch my work computer twice a week and spend the rest of the time on youtube and playing video games". Depending on what you assume the response would therefore be "yikes" in the latter case or "well, not all programming work is typing code" in the former.

dx034 5y ago

Not sure about the arguments regarding ethics. When I'm an employee, my contract is with the employer. They pay me, they evaluate me and their success is what determines my progress (in a good company). Sure, coworkers can suffer if I refuse to do my work, but I'm not there to make them happy, I'm there to make the company money. So I don't think it's unethical to work less as long as your employer is still happy with what you do. Sure, lying is always suboptimal. But if your company likes your output and would just be confused by the hours needed to achieve, I don't see a big problem with it. You could even argue that working full time and producing 8x as much could bring coworkers in trouble who already can barely match OPs output. And they will exist, he wouldn't have gotten to the point where he is if he constantly was the worst performer.

Karawebnetwork 5y ago
> So I don't think it's unethical to work less as long as your employer is still happy with what you do. Then tell the truth and deal with the consequences.
- engineeringwoke 5y ago
  Why? Perception is reality in engineering. I'm not incentivized to be anything other than slightly above average... people have horrible memories and velocity is very arbitrary. Engineering is a charlatan's paradise full stop; sounding smart is easy. In sales (especially) and marketing, there are real numbers that you drive. Everyone has bad quarters but if it continues, you will be let go.
  - cutemonster 5y ago
    > sounding smart is easy If talking with much less technical people But not if talking with a brighter and more experienced person >> tell the truth > Why? Perception is reality in engineering There's also the saying that goes "pick your battles". -- Compared to other things in life, how important is it that the managers know that in fact you work only so and so much?