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I don't doubt that this is a major milestone: gawd knows, I couldn't program a car to do that. But something that I would like to know is what happens when it

by ItsBob 5y ago

I don't doubt that this is a major milestone: gawd knows, I couldn't program a car to do that. But something that I would like to know is what happens when it fails? Or at least, seems to have failed? At the moment, if I buy a car and the brakes fail and I crash into someone/something then it's likely there was a defect and the manufacturer was at fault. That seems reasonable when you're making a 2 ton machine capable of hitting over 100 mph, there should be a shit load of safety measures in place. However, it seems that self-driving software is in its infancy and I've lost faith in tech companies to release a product when it's complete and ready, instead releasing it sooner with a bunch of bugs for the users to test. In addition, if my brakes fail, a sound mechanic would be able to verify that was the case and I'd be off the hook: you would be able to examine the faulty part. If my self-driving thingy failed on one of these level-3 roads, and I crashed into a bunch of nuns crossing the road would I be on the hook for it? How would I be able to prove in court that it failed and wasn't a result of me being a muppet. Coz you can bet I won't be able to examine the source code after the accident, unlike being able to see the faulty brakes in the earlier example.

plasticchris 5y ago
We are already there - remember the unintended acceleration problems? Source code was opened to outside review (for the purposes of the trial).
- tashoecraft 5y ago
  Except that was a scapegoat trial, anyone of the drivers could have pressed the breaks and stopped the car. They were confused and didn’t which resulted in loss of life. So instead of saying what actually happened they fined Toyota a billion
  - r00fus 5y ago
    My mom got into an accident with her 2007 Toyota Prius. Now, it could be that she, as an older person, simply didn't push the right pedal. However she claims insistently that she did brake but it accelerated instead. She didn't kill anyone but did get injured minorly and she got a very nice price for her totaled Prius (above market rates).
    - tashoecraft 5y ago
      Was this her normal car she drove often? A lot of the accidents involved people who don’t often drive that car. It’s guaranteed she was pressing the gas, 0% chance she was pressing the brake and it just so happened to do exactly what pressing the gas would do. Glad she made it out okay with no big injuries and no loss of life
      - gkop 5y ago
        > It’s guaranteed she was pressing the gas, 0% chance she was pressing the brake Congratulations, you reached stage 1 of debugging! http://plasmasturm.org/log/6debug/ http://plasmasturm.org/log/6debug/
        dahfizz 5y ago
        > The Department of Transportation reported in 2011 that the only causes for SUA were pedal misapplication and wrong mats. Most complaints came after the Toyota recall. The cars' event data recorders showed application of accelerator pedal and no application of brake pedal. NASA was unable to replicate engine control failure.[1] Anyone who writes software knows, sometimes the user error is the "bug". [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudden_unintended_acceleration#Sudden_acceleration_in_Toyota_vehicles https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudden_unintended_acceleration...
        gkop 5y ago
        Totally, but unless that person that writes software communicates their views with humility, then they are indistinguishable from the newbie software author.
    - dahfizz 5y ago
      Prius's (and all cars, AFAIK) have a physical braking system. Even if all electronics fail, the brake pedal has a direct mechanical connection to the master cylinder and the brake pistons. Pushing on the brake pedal mechanically forces your brake pads to engage, with or without electronics.
  - mattbee 5y ago
    I owned a 2002 Celica, the gas pedal got wedged under the floor mat while I was on the motorway. It went from 75 to 95mph before I could work out what was going on. Was I a confused driver? Yes I was. Was it a stupid design fault that could have been solved with a craft knife? Also yes.
mattowen_uk 5y ago
One would assume, that like the faulty brake part, the legal process should be able to subpoena all the logs and the video footage taken by your car, and use it to either exonerate or convict you. Alas, I think it will take a few high profile cases of fatalities (in each country) to trigger a change in the law to ensure this.
shadowgovt 5y ago
That's a good level of caution to exercise for Tesla's claims. Other SDC companies with a lot more promise than Tesla are an awful lot quieter about what they're doing because they know people have the concerns you do and they are downright allergic to over-promising on either capability or safety.

by ItsBob 5y ago

plasticchris 5y ago

We are already there - remember the unintended acceleration problems? Source code was opened to outside review (for the purposes of the trial).

tashoecraft 5y ago
Except that was a scapegoat trial, anyone of the drivers could have pressed the breaks and stopped the car. They were confused and didn’t which resulted in loss of life. So instead of saying what actually happened they fined Toyota a billion
- r00fus 5y ago
  My mom got into an accident with her 2007 Toyota Prius. Now, it could be that she, as an older person, simply didn't push the right pedal. However she claims insistently that she did brake but it accelerated instead. She didn't kill anyone but did get injured minorly and she got a very nice price for her totaled Prius (above market rates).
  - tashoecraft 5y ago
    Was this her normal car she drove often? A lot of the accidents involved people who don’t often drive that car. It’s guaranteed she was pressing the gas, 0% chance she was pressing the brake and it just so happened to do exactly what pressing the gas would do. Glad she made it out okay with no big injuries and no loss of life
    - gkop 5y ago
      > It’s guaranteed she was pressing the gas, 0% chance she was pressing the brake Congratulations, you reached stage 1 of debugging! http://plasmasturm.org/log/6debug/ http://plasmasturm.org/log/6debug/
      - dahfizz 5y ago
        > The Department of Transportation reported in 2011 that the only causes for SUA were pedal misapplication and wrong mats. Most complaints came after the Toyota recall. The cars' event data recorders showed application of accelerator pedal and no application of brake pedal. NASA was unable to replicate engine control failure.[1] Anyone who writes software knows, sometimes the user error is the "bug". [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudden_unintended_acceleration#Sudden_acceleration_in_Toyota_vehicles https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudden_unintended_acceleration...
        gkop 5y ago
        Totally, but unless that person that writes software communicates their views with humility, then they are indistinguishable from the newbie software author.
  - dahfizz 5y ago
    Prius's (and all cars, AFAIK) have a physical braking system. Even if all electronics fail, the brake pedal has a direct mechanical connection to the master cylinder and the brake pistons. Pushing on the brake pedal mechanically forces your brake pads to engage, with or without electronics.
- mattbee 5y ago
  I owned a 2002 Celica, the gas pedal got wedged under the floor mat while I was on the motorway. It went from 75 to 95mph before I could work out what was going on. Was I a confused driver? Yes I was. Was it a stupid design fault that could have been solved with a craft knife? Also yes.

mattowen_uk 5y ago

One would assume, that like the faulty brake part, the legal process should be able to subpoena all the logs and the video footage taken by your car, and use it to either exonerate or convict you. Alas, I think it will take a few high profile cases of fatalities (in each country) to trigger a change in the law to ensure this.

shadowgovt 5y ago

That's a good level of caution to exercise for Tesla's claims. Other SDC companies with a lot more promise than Tesla are an awful lot quieter about what they're doing because they know people have the concerns you do and they are downright allergic to over-promising on either capability or safety.