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For joining NATO, isn't there also a requirement on territorial integrity which makes Ukraine joining impossible as long as the Donbass situation persists?

mc32 5y ago
If that’s the case. How did West Germany join NATO given they had no control over the DDR? Looks like you could just declare you have territorial integrity and you’re set, irrespective of reality.
- jacquesm 5y ago
  West Germany and the DDR were two separate countries.
rich_sasha 5y ago
I haven't heard about it, but sounds plausible. That said, if there was political will, it would probably be fine, or there would be a special clause, or sth. For example, West Germany joined NATO (founding member?), even though clearly the country was divided; West Germany didn't, AFAIK, make format territorial claims on East Germany, but they clearly saw themselves as a legitimate state with an occupied territory.
- ivan_gammel 5y ago
  Territorial integrity of the West Germany was ensured by Potsdam treaty and definition of occupation zones. West Germany could not have any territorial claims for the territory of GDR, because it recognized the treaty and the fact that GDR was the occupation zone of USSR.
enkid 5y ago
There's not official requirement, and never has been. It's more a concern about the ambiguity that would arise from such a situation.
ivan_gammel 5y ago
Donbass is a diversion of attention from Crimea. It will eventually settle and return back to Ukraine, as more and more countries recognize Crimea as part of Russia. It is hard to imagine Ukraine giving up on Crimea (though it would make a lot of sense by now), so it will never join NATO and it is very unlikely that they will join EU despite promises of local politicians.
- nradov 5y ago
  That's similar to how the Kosovo situation makes it impossible for Serbia to join the EU and NATO.
- me_me_me 5y ago
  > It will eventually settle and return back to Ukraine > as more and more countries recognize Crimea as part of Russia. What? Crimea will return to Ukraine as more countries recognise Crimea as Russian territory? > It will eventually settle and return back to Ukraine Crimea will never return to Ukraine, Russia historically needs port that doesn't freeze over winter. Now that Ukraine is looking towards EU/Nato and Russia cannot control it as a satellite corrupt state, Russian military will not allow losing control of their most important port. This whole war in Ukraine is to open up possibility for a break-out state favourable and funded by Russia or even assimilation into Russia, as its a corridor to Crimea.
  - ivan_gammel 5y ago
    No, you misread it. I did not say that Crimea will be returned.
    - me_me_me 5y ago
      I see now, sorry for misunderstanding.
- lambdadmitry 5y ago
  I doubt it will ever settle. See: Abkhazia and South Osetia. Russia has a history of creating frozen conflicts to make life painful for its neighbours

mc32 5y ago

If that’s the case. How did West Germany join NATO given they had no control over the DDR? Looks like you could just declare you have territorial integrity and you’re set, irrespective of reality.

jacquesm 5y ago
West Germany and the DDR were two separate countries.

rich_sasha 5y ago

I haven't heard about it, but sounds plausible. That said, if there was political will, it would probably be fine, or there would be a special clause, or sth. For example, West Germany joined NATO (founding member?), even though clearly the country was divided; West Germany didn't, AFAIK, make format territorial claims on East Germany, but they clearly saw themselves as a legitimate state with an occupied territory.

ivan_gammel 5y ago
Territorial integrity of the West Germany was ensured by Potsdam treaty and definition of occupation zones. West Germany could not have any territorial claims for the territory of GDR, because it recognized the treaty and the fact that GDR was the occupation zone of USSR.

enkid 5y ago

There's not official requirement, and never has been. It's more a concern about the ambiguity that would arise from such a situation.

ivan_gammel 5y ago

Donbass is a diversion of attention from Crimea. It will eventually settle and return back to Ukraine, as more and more countries recognize Crimea as part of Russia. It is hard to imagine Ukraine giving up on Crimea (though it would make a lot of sense by now), so it will never join NATO and it is very unlikely that they will join EU despite promises of local politicians.

nradov 5y ago
That's similar to how the Kosovo situation makes it impossible for Serbia to join the EU and NATO.
me_me_me 5y ago
> It will eventually settle and return back to Ukraine > as more and more countries recognize Crimea as part of Russia. What? Crimea will return to Ukraine as more countries recognise Crimea as Russian territory? > It will eventually settle and return back to Ukraine Crimea will never return to Ukraine, Russia historically needs port that doesn't freeze over winter. Now that Ukraine is looking towards EU/Nato and Russia cannot control it as a satellite corrupt state, Russian military will not allow losing control of their most important port. This whole war in Ukraine is to open up possibility for a break-out state favourable and funded by Russia or even assimilation into Russia, as its a corridor to Crimea.
- ivan_gammel 5y ago
  No, you misread it. I did not say that Crimea will be returned.
  - me_me_me 5y ago
    I see now, sorry for misunderstanding.
lambdadmitry 5y ago
I doubt it will ever settle. See: Abkhazia and South Osetia. Russia has a history of creating frozen conflicts to make life painful for its neighbours