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> The latter is very difficult for Europe in winter The latter is very difficult for Germany in winter. Let's call a spade a spade and stop bundling the EU27
by DoingIsLearning 5y ago
> The latter is very difficult for Europe in winter
The latter is very difficult for Germany in winter.
Let's call a spade a spade and stop bundling the EU27 with Germany's energy policy and geo-political failures.
- rich_sasha 5y agoThere's plenty of countries heavily dependent on Russian gas, Germany being one. I get it, from Spain it looks very different, but this list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia_in_the_European_energy_sector#Natural_gas_deliveries https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia_in_the_European_energy_... shows how many countries depend on Russian gas. This should have been scary to Europe for at least a decade now, but sadly wasn't.
- aa-jv 5y agoEuropeans don't hate Russians as much as Americans do - probably because they've actually got Russians visiting and know that Russia doesn't really represent the threat that the American military-industrial complex needs you to believe is real in order to justify their trillion dollar misadventures and further subjugation of NATO member states into puppetry. In fact, a lot of Europeans would like to see peace made with Russia. A Europe united with Russia would be the one superpower even China could do little to contain ..
- TheGigaChad 5y agoLol, idiot. The more you know Russians - the more you hate them.
- eptcyka 5y agoComing from a post-soviet country, Europeans certainly have a diverse opinion of Russia, but most of it is negative. I don't see how peace could be made given their aggressive foreign policy and continued advances on all fronts that are acceptable. They're pushing their propaganda very hard across the border, and are leaning in hard on the russian speaking populations left in post-soviet countries to screw around.
- aa-jv 5y ago> I don't see how peace could be made Its certainly not going to be possible for as long as member citizens of Western nations think they have the moral authority to tell Russia what to do .. they really, really don't have that moral authority, especially given the last twenty years of massacring of innocent people that the West continues to sweep under the rug and justify with bleats .. The Russian people know how many innocent human beings are massacred by American war machines every day, even if Americans don't.
- ogogmad 5y agoLook up whataboutism, the "tu quoque" fallacy, and the fallacy of moral equivalence.
- aa-jv 5y agoIf you think that America has the moral authority to demand other states stop their human rights abuses, you probably don't know a thing about the extent nor magnitude of America's own human rights crimes. A nation that drops bombs on innocent people every twenty minutes for twenty years has zero moral authority when it comes to calling out other nations' human rights abuses - until their own abuses are appropriately addressed. Anything less is just a failure to understand basic ethics. You can call anything a fallacy - the idea that Americans have a higher moral authority on the subject of human rights is just ludicrous and worthy of a great deal of ridicule in light of the statistics of "Americans killing other innocent people for fundamentally racist/bigoted reasons" .. the real fallacy is that the American people think their nation has a 'right' to act with moral authority over any other nation. They really, really don't.
- Redoubts 5y agoOn the flip side, it would be nice if you would stop lynching negroes.
- eptcyka 5y agoI am in no way happy that my native country's sovereignty is hedged on US global hegemony, but Russia is often complicit and just as bad when it comes to military action in 3rd world countries. I'm also not trying to prop up a higher moral position, but I am very opposed to a Russian invasion, much like I would be opposed to an American one. Nobody wants Russia to fail, they just don't want Russia to be a threat.
- rebolek 5y agoLot of European countries have troubled history with Russia and understand what a threat (at least under Putin) they are.
- aa-jv 5y agoAnd a lot of European countries have no issue with Russia, but see America as the bigger threat to world peace. So? Which 'side' you pick is mostly a matter of national identity and how your personal views on world peace align with the military industrial complex of your own personal nation state. A lot of Europe is really sick of America's shit and want them to leave, too.
- drran 5y agoCan you name these countries, please?
- aa-jv 5y agoGermans would like to have their country back and kick NATO out. Serbians, Hungarians, Slovakians, Czechians, Slovenians .. even my colleagues in Kosovo are sick of Americas' shit. The reason is, they don't live behind an iron curtain of censorship of America's crimes against humanity, as most Americans/Western Europeans do.
- drran 5y agoI have relatives in Slovakia. Never heard anything about NATO from them. Can you point out where are you finding that?
- aa-jv 5y agoI have multiple work colleagues in Slovakia, a stones throw away from me, who are very definitely against NATO bases expanding into eastern/central Europe. I suggest you ask your relatives how they feel about NATO encroaching further and further towards Russias' borders, and what do they think about the recent NATO exercise that flew armed nuclear missiles within 20km's of Russias borders. If the tables were turned, Americans would be having kittens - but somehow, Russians are supposed to take these threats lightly?
- reducesuffering 5y agoWestern Europeans are generally ambivalent towards the threat from comfortable complacency. Have you met Ukrainians or Georgians? They're not NATO states. They understand full well the threat and seizures they're under and will tell you so. The closer the proximity to the Russian state, the more the people are concerned. Places like Poland and Slovakia are similar only somewhat less so.
- aa-jv 5y agoHere in Austria, I know a lot of Ukraine and Georgian expats who don't have the issue with Russia that they do with the USA. These are just not vocal enough to warrant attention in Western media, nor does it serve the purpose of giving the American-led NATO powers a new purpose for existence.
- drran 5y agoYeah, they love Russia, and Russia love to protect them. Did they form an «ANR» and asked for Russian humanitarian military aid?
- reducesuffering 5y agoYou moved to Austria from Australia less than 3 months ago (if you're not lying about that also). Austria is 1/1,000 Ukrainian and 1/3,000 Georgian, and the younger crowd is even further US aligned. Please tell me more about how you've made 10,000 friends in 2 months to statistically avg. knowing a lot of them. You don't know "a lot of Ukraine and Georgian expats." I have family from both and have been all over Georgia. 2012 Gallup Poll had Georgian approval of US policies at 51% and disapproval at 15%. There's a damn good reason Georgia and Ukraine mutually consider each other their #1 ally. I thought after the 2014 annexation of Crimea, surely international supporters of this crap would be nowhere to be seen anymore. Now I found myself thinking the same thing when Ukraine or the Baltics boil over, but I'm sure somehow you'll make up some other "But US and NATO (a defense pact that has never entered into unrequested territory) also yada yada, Russia not so bad."
- 5y ago
- arcticfox 5y ago> Europeans don't hate Russians as much as Americans do I don't think Americans hate Russians at all, in my experience. Just Putin and a handful of oligarchs. > probably because they've actually got Russians visiting and know that Russia doesn't really represent the threat that the American military-industrial complex needs you to believe is real in order to justify their trillion dollar misadventures and further subjugation of NATO member states into puppetry. Some of these Russians just happen to carry Novichok or polonium and assassinate dissidents living in Europe, no big deal right? > In fact, a lot of Europeans would like to see peace made with Russia. A Europe united with Russia would be the one superpower even China could do little to contain .. This is a glorious fantasy
- aa-jv 5y ago>Some of these Russians just happen to carry Novichok or polonium and assassinate dissidents living in Europe, no big deal right? Whereas every single American tourist can be trusted not to be a gullible fool and just believe everything they've been told to think about Russia by talking heads on the television? Come on, we know that all states assassinate their enemies, including the USA. This standard is no longer relevant.
- oceanplexian 5y ago> Some of these Russians just happen to carry Novichok or polonium and assassinate dissidents living in Europe, no big deal right? In Western democracies we don't assassinate our dissidents, we simply throw them in a dark room for a few decades and throw away the key, like we are doing with Assange, and would have done with Snowden if someone like Putin wasn't around to put the smug hypocrisy, propaganda, and corruption on public display.
- tauntz 5y agoThere's a huge difference for Europeans in hating Russia vs hating Russians. There's also a huge difference in attitude in Western Europe and Eastern Europe.
- nradov 5y agoAmericans don't hate Russians any longer. They no longer represent a threat to us and most people have no interest in minor eastern European conflicts.
- aa-jv 5y agoSure they don't, which is why American media doesn't go a day without beating the war-with-Russia-drums ..
- thatguy0900 5y agoThe fact that the media has to try so hard could be a good indicator that they don't, in fairness. Noone I know cares about Russia outside of the Ukrainian invasions, at least.
- plandis 5y agoI really doubt Americans in general dislike the Russian people. If Americans have an issue with Russia it’s with the government at large or specifically Putin and the oligarchs.
- Mountain_Skies 5y agoI doubt more than a single digit percentage of people in the US could name even one Russian oligarch. Outside of the DC bubble and media pot stirring, Russian "hate" is mostly limited to it being used as a generic boogieman when something politically unappealing to the observer happens.
- skinkestek 5y agoSeriously: > Europeans don't hate Russians as much as Americans do - I seriously doubt Americans really hates Russia, and at least not more than any eastern country who has been crushed by USSR for some decades. > probably because they've actually got Russians visiting and know that Russia doesn't really represent the threat that the American military-industrial complex needs you to believe is real in order to justify their trillion dollar misadventures and further subjugation of NATO member states into puppetry. Seriously, again. We want peace with Russia, but don't pretend it is the West who creates this situation. > In fact, a lot of Europeans would like to see peace made with Russia. Yep, but hopefully we remember what happened how much we got out of Britains deal with Hitler. A deal with Russia must always be backed by power. > A Europe united with Russia would be the one superpower even China could do little to contain .. The only advantage China really has on us is ruthlessness.
- aa-jv 5y ago>it is the West who creates this situation. It is the West that creates this situation: https://www.geoawesomeness.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/Risk-of-unintended-war-with-Russia.jpg https://www.geoawesomeness.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/Ri... >Britains deal with Hitler. A deal with Russia These are not equivalent by any stretch. Putin is not Hitler.
- skinkestek 5y ago> https://www.geoawesomeness.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/Risk-of-unintended-war-with-Russia.jpg https://www.geoawesomeness.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/Ri... What am I supposed to read out of this that supports your argument? > These are not equivalent by any stretch. Putin is not Hitler. Absolutely true. Sadly it seems that one similarity is that both of them - and others as well - didn't/doesn't respect treaties, agreements or what I think of as basic expectations of decency. For this reason I voice my clear support for Nato - as long as we don't overstep our boundaries like we did in Afghanistan. This includes sending troops to the borders og our friends in the alliance. As long as they don't cross the border this is fair game. Russias problem isn't only that they exercise on the Ukrainian border, but also that they have a history of: - sending advanced gear to troublemakers in east Ukraine who choose violence over democratic participation. - sending troops. - has a history of not only meddling like USA (I don't like this either) but also occupying.
- rmind 5y agoThe information in this Wikipedia page is out of date. There are quite a few new LNG terminals in the EU now which diversified the gas supply. High consumption from Russia doesn't not necessarily mean dependency, e.g. Lithuania has an LNG terminal with a capacity to supply itself and the other Baltics states, but the country buys mostly the Russian gas simply because they offer lower market price. However, Lithuania has been shipping gas from Norway, Qatar and USA. It's all free market now. Poland and Finland also have LNG terminals with more of them being planned in other European countries. Germany, on the other hand, is still very much on the Russian gas needle.
- trasz 5y agoExcept that LNG is ~twice as expensive. In fact, Poland is even more dependent on Russia, because that’s where it buys its coal.
- rich_sasha 5y agoEverything you write is true. I suspect if the tap were to be closed overnight, or even with two weeks' notice, there would be huge disruption. The fact that one country can shift a marginal gas use from one seller to another doesn't mean, for example, that you could find enough gas in the free market to suddenly prop up 40% of European winter needs. I think there's a lot that could be done here, but it would require coordination and a united front. Oddly, I feel both these things are in place.
- MagnumOpus 5y ago> Let's call a spade a spade and stop bundling the EU27 with Germany's energy policy and geo-political failures German gas consumption per capita is not much different than most of the EU27 except France (nuclear) and Spain/southern Italy (it doesn't get cold enough to need much heating). All the EU east of Germany imports more of their gas from Russia as a percentage; and the ones to the west of it only don't because the pipes from Norway or Morocco are shorter. So no, not just a German problem, your electricity cost have gone up too I bet.